Anyone here ever play Diablo 2 Hardcore? This is another example of creating a player that only gets one life. Once they are dead, they can no longer be used. I had a friend who would always play this mode. He had lost a few to it at certain parts, yet he kept playing new characters. It pretty much takes the right mindset to obviously play games like these. He had balls, I will give him that. :)

Originally posted by Shivam

Originally posted by stokker

I do not think you could possibly consider calling a game RPG without having an enforced form of permadeath in it. I think all warm-blooded game developers of popular MMOs feel deep down in their hearts that this would be the way to go. The game world would be much more persistent and exciting should such a mehanic be enforced on players.

Then of course there are these 2 little factors, namely i) the chores of our contemporary ITC infrastructure and ii) the need for an MMO to be successful financialy (i.e. caving to the needs/whines of carebears that simply cannot handle all the excitement), that render the implementation of permadeath impossible at the present time.

Ironaically enough, since you mentioned EVE OP, permadeath would be a solution to all of its pressing problems: no more blobs, no more lagfest, no more alliance monopoly, no more 'Ooh, i can't catch up with 7-years old chars!' - BAM! you kill them, no more T2 BPO injustice and so forth.

Yeah a perfect recepie of how to lose players in record time and kill all the hardwork they did on EVE for many years within a few days. 

See this guy's post? This is exactly what I was referring to at ii)

Originally posted by Kaledus

Anyone here ever play Diablo 2 Hardcore? This is another example of creating a player that only gets one life. Once they are dead, they can no longer be used. I had a friend who would always play this mode. He had lost a few to it at certain parts, yet he kept playing new characters. It pretty much takes the right mindset to obviously play games like these. He had balls, I will give him that. :)

And luckily for us mortals, Hardcore mode is back with a vengeance in D3! \o/

This guy isnt afraid of permadeath. It's one of the reasons im awaiting wizardy online to come out. Plus in most games that have permadeath its not as harsh as people want to make it. If you  get killed you can get resurrected but i guess if you dont have any friends that might be an issue. most games handle this but having a corpse stay in world for a set time by level so that you can still recover. true permadeath happens when you cant get rezzed.

Sincerely, can not immagine more stupid idea. But for those who would like this idea ... I would expand this to if you die you are banned for life from playing any game. THAT would be something.

Originally posted by thekid1

I think death in atleast single player games are done right these days.

In Fallout 3 for example, I save often, so death means perhaps only a few minutes of incovenience. But still I don't want to die, it feels like failing, I will gobble up all my saved expensive health potions to prevent it.

And then reload a previous save game.

 

So, you're okay with that game's death system, because you can just continuously "rewind time" and go back to a previous saved game 'til you don't die or are otherwise satisfied with the outcome. 

In my opinion, being able to do that is tantamount to death being painless. Especially if you save constantly.

I've always thought save-points being placed at certain intervals where you had to fight to get to them, but didn't run the risk of losing more than say an hour of playtime would be reasonable. 

Even if it's only 60 minutes, players actions would be far more meaningful because even if you did keep reloading that previous last saved game, you still had a ways to go before reaching the next save point, and safely reaching it - or better yet - reaching it by the skin of your teeth would be that much more an accomplishment. 

The server wasn't particularly "hard", but the sense that one fatal mistake could mean the end of hours of progress made encounters I'd normally take on without hesitation a much more meaningful experience. It actually heightened the sense of danger in the game. Which, of course, is the function of a death penalty in the first place... to make the world feel more dangerous and require players to think and play more carefully.

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Originally posted by WSIMike

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Originally posted by thekid1 I think death in atleast single player games are done right these days. In Fallout 3 for example, I save often, so death means perhaps only a few minutes of incovenience. But still I don't want to die, it feels like failing, I will gobble up all my saved expensive health potions to prevent it. And then reload a previous save game.  

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So, you're okay with that game's death system, because you can just continuously "rewind time" and go back to a previous saved game 'til you don't die or are otherwise satisfied with the outcome. In my opinion, being able to do that is tantamount to death being painless. Especially if you save constantly.I've always thought save-points being placed at certain intervals where you had to fight to get to them, but didn't run the risk of losing more than say an hour of playtime would be reasonable. Even if it's only 60 minutes, players actions would be far more meaningful because even if you did keep reloading that previous last saved game, you still had a ways to go before reaching the next save point, and safely reaching it - or better yet - reaching it by the skin of your teeth would be that much more an accomplishment.  As far as Perma-Death goes, I'd have to see how it's implemented in the context of the rest of the game first. On its own, it does sound intriguing. I used to play on a Neverwinter Nights server that had permadeath enabled.The server wasn't particularly "hard", but the sense that one fatal mistake could mean the end of hours of progress made encounters I'd normally take on without hesitation a much more meaningful experience. It actually heightened the sense of danger in the game. Which, of course, is the function of a death penalty in the first place... to make the world feel more dangerous and require players to think and play more carefully.

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The problem with PermaDeath is that no one thinks of the cost of life...

Look at it this way. If you need to 'Buy'  new life every time as the cost of death this shifts the pain point to the start... not the end. Why does this matter? Well in a MMO, the one thing that you can never control is other players. You have no idea what they are going to do, and there actions can inflct the 'cost' of death on you.

The real problem is when one player can inflict a cost on another with little or no risk. If they dont care about their character, they can just kill yours (or cause it to be killed). This makes the cost one sided. However, if they have to pay up front (rather than risk time invested) then everyone has the same investment, and takes the same risk. Sure, you can still grief others, but you risk losing something as well, and they can return the favor. This puts the power in the hands of the community, who can make those that are unwelcome 'pay' for their actions.

The cost of death is a great way to build communities, who then work together to protect each other, and the investment that they have made. It just has to be paid up front, rather than at the end.

I loved Ultima Online before all the expansions came out. I liked the death system in that if you was killed you left your corpse and everything on it for all to loot/steal even some of the npcs would take items off you.

Then I played EQ1 and the good old corpse runs. I loved it playing as a necromancer I had a very lucrative in game craft of getting corpses out of dungeons.

Then came the MMO's where death just meant a repair bill and a 20 minute timer on stats and the suicide run to leave the dungeon. Death had no meaning, and now we have quick travel. So the suicide runs at the end are pointless.

I would play a perma-death MMO. I want to have consequence when I die in game. Its one reason I love Eve Online if you dont keep that clone up to date your going to loose skills. Also updating a clone will cost you money, so it makes you fly better and smarter.

WoW, DAoC, EQ2 all these MMO's have cheapend the death within the industries and now other companies follow suit because people have grown soft. I am amazed and pleased CCP is going to break this mould with their WoD MMO, and its one I will be playing.

The pros and cons of permadeath or serious death penalties have been done to 'death' in the above posts. No need to be redundant.

If the 'death penalty' is permanent or even very serious then I do not bother with the game. Period. It is a matter of personal choice. Permadeath is already in games, all of them. Just delete your character, thats permadeath. Drop/delete all your stuff - thats serious penalty. Drop a major percentage of your 'cash' - thats serious penalty. Whats the problem? Self Discipline! Overweening desire to make everybody else play like you want.

Companies can make any type of game they want. Play it or not - personal choice.

How do you dare to write about permadeath and not mention Haven and Hearth? It's from the makers of Salem (the game from Paradox you named) and it has true permadeath. You can only inherit a mere % of your previous character after dying, basically putting you behind for months.

That's the only real permadeath game I know (besides hardcore mode on Diablo)

I thikn perma death mmo gaming could make a comeback in the Facebook PvP side of things. Would be niche but it is an instant enough conscept for that gaming market.

Originally posted by dodsfall

I can't think of any game that blocks you from permadeath if you want to play that way.

 If you really want permadeath, simply delete your character  when you die and re-roll.

You fail to grasp the concept of perma-death.

If you simply re-rolled on death, it would be just some bizarre self-inflicted punishment that would not affect the gaming environment around you.

If perma-death was obligatory, the real danger of death influences people's gameplay. You will not see people running about naked. People will think twice before seeking combat, and with whom they will seek it.

With increased risk comes a heightened sense of achievement from coming out alive. Increased satisfaction at pulling off a stunt most people wouldn't dare for fear of the consequences.

An optional perma-death is pointless.

... but that said, I think perma-death is too severe. Though death should carry a heavy enough punishment to make it unpleasant and something to avoid, perma-death simply seems a bit overboard, especially from a casual player's point of view. Some compromise is needed.

The last time I feared death? EQ1 Plane of Fear break-ins but even this really wasn't all that bad with a smart group. Could be done just fine with a single group. Feared this because body recovery (and the potentially loss of all equipment)  was not essentially trivial like every other zone. Of course, this fear went away once the zone was on farm status.

Permadeath.

Certainly not with a standardly designed MMO. Characters are expected to survive for years and content is designed knowing that players are absolutely going to die many times before and after having successfully mastered the content.

Then we have, "On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Internet issues. Computer issues. Server issues. Noobs or trolls in the group. Simple mistakes or momentary distractions.

Permadeath is a workable concept but any power gains a player can make would probably have to be accumulable over an increadiblly short period of time. If power gains are time consuming and "limitless" then there is likely to end up being a few heavily supported "god mode" characters. While might be fun for some, I'm not sure how popular this would be.

It could, and does work in some small scale online games, and could probably be applied to MMOs but the gameplay and the incentives to continue playing would need to be much different.

  Heh , we already got EVE-Online and only the real hardcore people, men and women ,plays EVE-Online , and I'm damn proud of being with a great community.   Your hard work can go out the window in a matter of minutes but what defines EVE players are the guts that it takes to actually risk it all for the good of your corp / alliance , and honestly , you won't see the EVE phenomena anywhere else.  CCP nailed it right with EVE-Online , although it doesn't have the numbers as other popular MMO , EVE has the best Mature / idiot ratio out of any MMO and that being having ALOT of bright , mature and funny people. Probably why I'm still glued to it since 2006 to this day and helping out a new corp achieve PvP glory , helping newbies taking the first steps into the great PvP world of EVE is exciting and risky business but in the end it's all about the team work and the fun , win or lose it's a learning experience for all.

 The rest of the MMO world , meh, been there done that , sprites with swords and stuff , a lame death penalty , what's the point of controlling a hero if your scared of heading out town to PvP? I never understood that , yet those same people complain that EVE doesn't have the sense of character belonging because you pilot a ship?  Please , that's so lame and pathetic that it makes no sense at all.

Permadeeath wouldn't work in an MMO and it's simple it doesn't worth it. Why would someone play a game with permadeath specially since there's a great chance of getting griefed by a band of players that enjoy inflicting pain upon others. In PVP games gankers and griefer are giving people enough trouble without permadeath. 

Permadeath would work in games that start in a seasonal manner with a month or two lenght to crown a champion in the end, something like T-LORD or The Legend of the Red Dragon, the game I loved and cherished playing back in the BBS networks era. The game was just in text but we loved it and played it with great vigor and excitement. That would work, only that, in an MMO manner only EVE Online has the right formula for death. That also terrifies me to get killed and activate a clone. That wouldn't be me, a new person with my memory, but a new person nontheless.

I have already come up with a brilliant solution to this debate, but details are going to cost someone big bucks.

Originally posted by Cerulean2001

Also, while i was playing Shadowbane i encountered a small amount of fear in death in certain circumstances. Of course, these circumstances only occured when i was out with my guild farming for gold to maintain our massive city. For those of you who havent played the game, SB was an amazing sandbox MMO with 100% PvP. Upon death, not only would your character lose xp, but your gear would take damage AND your entire inventory and gold was lootable upon death. So, after a couple of hours of farming, your backpacks full of loot, your gold pouches bulging you start to question the party leader about doing a bank run.

Of course, the party leader is on his minotaur warrior and has ENORMOUS amounts of strength and can carry 4 times the amount that you can so he wants to stay for one more pull. So, you pull the whole camp, like normal because we're bad asses, and out of the blue we get steam rolled by another party skipping through the forest. we all die. run back to our corpses and find that everything has been taken. except for the minotaur... who can carry all that stuff anyways!? All the gold gone though, for sure.

So, after your death and the run back, you're pissed. you put up a call in /guild or /nation. rally like 5 groups of players (50 players) and go attack the city that just steam rolled your group. Walah! a game with no quests providing it's own reason to do stuff. you get killed, you know who killed you, and you go kill them in their town and 5 hours later you have a full fleged war on. =)

In Closing. I havent had any fear of death, other than minor anoyance, in a while. but when i did have fear of death, it either made me play harder, or it provided me with a reason for retaliation!

Long Live the Sandbox!

(totally willing to try out perma death by the way)

 

 

This is the answer. The rest of you are unfortunate enough never to have felt what this guy is describing.  Let's just say, it's liberating and rewarding to a degree you couldn't comprehend without experiencing it.

Originally posted by midmagic

The last time I feared death? EQ1 Plane of Fear break-ins but even this really wasn't all that bad with a smart group. Could be done just fine with a single group. Feared this because body recovery (and the potentially loss of all equipment)  was not essentially trivial like every other zone. Of course, this fear went away once the zone was on farm status.

 

Permadeath.

Certainly not with a standardly designed MMO. Characters are expected to survive for years and content is designed knowing that players are absolutely going to die many times before and after having successfully mastered the content.

Then we have, "On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Internet issues. Computer issues. Server issues. Noobs or trolls in the group. Simple mistakes or momentary distractions.

Permadeath is a workable concept but any power gains a player can make would probably have to be accumulable over an increadiblly short period of time. If power gains are time consuming and "limitless" then there is likely to end up being a few heavily supported "god mode" characters. While might be fun for some, I'm not sure how popular this would be.

It could, and does work in some small scale online games, and could probably be applied to MMOs but the gameplay and the incentives to continue playing would need to be much different.

Back in the day I was a newbie raider on my ranger and started a newbie PoF break in raid with the people who were not afraid to die and we'd stick at it till we broke in.  (meaning it was safe at the entrance).  I actually did about 5 or 6 really successful huge raids.... after that I kinda got tired of it.

Originally posted by SuprGamerX

  Heh , we already got EVE-Online and only the real hardcore people, men and women ,plays EVE-Online , and I'm damn proud of being with a great community.   Your hard work can go out the window in a matter of minutes but what defines EVE players are the guts that it takes to actually risk it all for the good of your corp / alliance , and honestly , you won't see the EVE phenomena anywhere else.  CCP nailed it right with EVE-Online , although it doesn't have the numbers as other popular MMO , EVE has the best Mature / idiot ratio out of any MMO and that being having ALOT of bright , mature and funny people. Probably why I'm still glued to it since 2006 to this day and helping out a new corp achieve PvP glory , helping newbies taking the first steps into the great PvP world of EVE is exciting and risky business but in the end it's all about the team work and the fun , win or lose it's a learning experience for all.

 The rest of the MMO world , meh, been there done that , sprites with swords and stuff , a lame death penalty , what's the point of controlling a hero if your scared of heading out town to PvP? I never understood that , yet those same people complain that EVE doesn't have the sense of character belonging because you pilot a ship?  Please , that's so lame and pathetic that it makes no sense at all.

 

I don't define 'guts' as playing a video game. It's actually a bit sad that you do.