I know, it's a wide sweeping generalization and there's always exceptions, but after playing MMO's for 10 years and after reading the SWTOR forums, I'm convinced that PvP doesn't do any good for MMORPG's anymore.

PvPers are constantly complaining about balance, when in fact judging by my own experience and experiences of others, the perceived imbalance is actually a lack of player skill and/or the choosing of a class whose mechanics don't fit naturally with their playstyle.

If there isn't PvP, developers can worry less about class balance, which I personally could care less about anyways, and pay more attention to social features, PvE content, and RPing features. Not to mention, it'd get rid of all the bickering that revolves around PvP mainly.

My first MMORPG was DAoC and my second was SWG, so I PvPed a great deal back then and I loved it. People banded together to overcome the enemy. People weren't worried about kill counts, or similar things. They were worried about completing large objectives, such as driving the enemy off their land or reclaiming castles and relics. PvP like this, I like, but the PvP matches and e-sport PvP has brought in a new type of PvPer who doesn't really bring any good qualities to the community. They're selfish and more concerned with what rewards they get out of playing, and how their class stacks up against the rest, rather than cooperating with other players to achieve something greater.

I've enjoyed the warzones thus far, but I can do without PvP if it got rid of all the crys for nerfs and buffs, and that's coming from someone playing a Marauder, which people are complaining is underpowered and not good at PvP.

PvP'ers do not ruin games, what ruins games for PvP'ers though are poorly thought out combat mechanics, most MMO's these days are PVE orientated, WoW and SW;TOR are perfect examples of PVE orientated games. There arent really very many games that specialise enough in PvP to really be worthy of the name, Eve Online is about the only one that springs to mind that does the whole PvP thing really well, i am hoping, that TSW and GW2 will actually bring more PvP orientated game play to the MMO market, as for the so called PvP you will encounter in WoW and SW;TOR (but not limited to just those games by any means!!) anyone who has played any version of counterstrike etc, will know that PvP  is not a matter of standing opposite someone and bashing them until they fall over (rinse and repeat) 

Yeah cause RP elements wouldnt be a waste of resources and time... Also even if there were no pvp at all there would still be unbalance disscussions and/or whining, perhaps even more because players wouldnt be able to face eachothers to judge their power(s) (for instance complaining about ability X that does 6k dmg while my ability Y which is my best only does 3k dmg etc.)

SWTOR is mainly a PVE game with PVP features, I dont really understand the fuss here.

This is just laughable.

PvPers ruin mmorpgs where PvP is implemented badly. Of course they will "ruin" a game with imbalanced, pointless PvP with no depth or sense to it.

It's like saying that its the PvE players fault that PvE in a game is bad. You know they could always "roleplay" around the PvE faults but they're not doing it. They could all, like all angels and saints, simply say no to all the buggy exploits but oh no, they're still doing it in their badness and evil. Bad PvE players ruining my game!

You mention DAoC up there. Do you really think that human nature magically changed in the last 10 years or so? That DAoC players were somehow "better people" than today's players?! DAoC had a balanced and, what is even more imortant, purposeful PvP. Something almost no one has managed to recreate yet in mmos. Purpose to fighting ennobles PvP. Of course you'll have sadistic gankers in a mmo if there are no rewards and purpose to it offered except sadistic pleasure of ruining someone's fun. Simply giving everyone a PvP flag with no purpose or sense to it is a sure-fire way into ganking hell. It's not freedom but anarchy which always ultimately leads to oppression.

Heck, I play TF2 with my wife on two computers and more often than not we play on opposing teams. According to "all PvP is for evil sadists" theory I'm a total monster. But instead we have loads of fun, chasing each other across the maps and trying out counter-professions etc. We invariably end up laughing and anger and resentment are the last things on our mind. See? Balance and purpose.

As for your main argument, that PvP balance is somehow problematic... You have GW1 which was built entirely around PvP balance rather than the other way around.... and it worked perfectly. Actually I find this a much better approach because you balance the classes with other clases rather than with mobs. To put it in another way - mobs are designed to counter classes, rather than designing classes to counter mobs.

No, trying to create an MMORPG that satisifes both PVE and PVP is the real issue. So far, it appears you have to focus on one element or the other to make them work well.

DAOC did this by separating the two elements, you PVE'd in total safety for most of your leveling career (unless you chose to go into the frontiers).

PVP occurred mostly in the Battlegrounds or Frontiers exclusive of PVE'ers and they even added an entire tier of realm abilities which were mostly PVP specific and I think this helped make the balancing easier.

Yet, with 45+ classes, people constantly complained that their was an imbalance, and balancing still had to occur on a regular basis.

Even in EVE people whine about balancing, look at some of the threads complaining Minmitar ships are overpowered (they probably are) yet somehow people manage to make kills in non-minmatar ships. 

Someone once said that Ansel Adams could take better photographs with a pin hole camera than most photographers could with a modern SLR.  Same thing here, really good PVP'er seem to excel in whatever class they play, and the rest whine about how over powered they are. (or must be cheating somehow)

If they would just make seperate mechanics (spell abilities) for PvE and PvP they could probably make a game that would satisfy both PvE and PvPer's.  I'm ask sick as the next guy about PvE games being dilluted and watered down due to PvP concerns....but the blame does primarily rest with the developers.

A whole other conern would be the crowd of non MMO fans that have flooded into the genre with WoW.  In general these people want everything and they want everything now.  They don't want to take time to build a character they want instant gratification.  Developers have bowed down to the non MMO crowd while largely ignoring the old UO and EQ1 players.

PvPers dont' ruin MMORPGs, developers who listen to PvPers who are whinging about balance on a non-PvP dedicated game ruin MMORPGs. Prioritising PvP balance over PvE balance when a majority of the player base need/want PvE too is what damages a game, that's one of the main reasons why DAOC fell to pieces after a few years and only the die-hards are left playing it.

Great game ruined by short sighted developers, who spend far too long balancing classes (and only causing more imbalances the more they did it) whilst adding more and more abilities to confuse and imbalance classes further.

Devs should focus on PvE balance, make PvP only skills aquirable/usable via PvP unless it's a PvP only game.

My opinion of course, coming from a huge fan of DAOC.

Personally I've never seen the appeal of PvP in MMO's, especially when the focus is on what gear and weapons you have. It's basically an arms race rather than a game with any amount of real skill. If player X has a weapon that does 10 less DPS than player Y who also has +20 armor points, then we already know who's going to win. If you want PvP try games like Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or if you want a massive world then take a look at Planetside.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Personally I've never seen the appeal of PvP in MMO's, especially when the focus is on what gear and weapons you have. It's basically an arms race rather than a game with any amount of real skill. If player X has a weapon that does 10 less DPS than player Y who also has +20 armor points, then we already know who's going to win. If you want PvP try games like Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or if you want a massive world then take a look at Planetside.

To me the appeal of PvP in mmos was always persistence and world size, while gear and levels were a detriment.

It is saddening that devs have gone completely the wrong way with this - and I blame WoW and Bliz for that. Instead of huge, persistent PvP worlds where skill and cunning matter, we have little instanced boxes where everything is decided by gear and grind.

Thank you for nothing, Blizzard. May you rot in hell.

Thankfully, there are mmos breaking the mold coming up (no SW:TOR is definitely not one of them). Planetside 2, GW2, Firefall all promise to offer what I was looking for all those bleak years.

Just to show how WoW totally changed the paradigm and made the laughable commonplace: In SWTOR you kill Revan for his pants. Yes. That's what you do. You kill him so you can get new pants. While this might conceivably work in Sword & Sorcery setting, it's just ludicrous in SF and especialy SW. I didn't know that Luke, Han and Leia were after Darth Vader so they could take his uber helmet or boots. Once you stop and think about some WoW "givens" your head starts spinning.

It's not just that its "unrealistic" or even "non-immersive." It's just plain old ugly.

Besides pvp this game is poor, it lacks a lot of features. Voice quests apart game is empty.

I am not giving them a single buck more waiting for features it should have been back at launch.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Personally I've never seen the appeal of PvP in MMO's, especially when the focus is on what gear and weapons you have. It's basically an arms race rather than a game with any amount of real skill. If player X has a weapon that does 10 less DPS than player Y who also has +20 armor points, then we already know who's going to win. If you want PvP try games like Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or if you want a massive world then take a look at Planetside.

To me the appeal of PvP in mmos was always persistence and world size, while gear and levels were a detriment.

It is saddening that devs have gone completely the wrong way with this - and I blame WoW and Bliz for that. Instead of huge, persistent PvP worlds where skill and cunning matter, we have little instanced boxes where everything is decided by gear and grind.

Thank you for nothing, Blizzard. May you rot in hell.

Thankfully, there are mmos breaking the mold coming up (no SW:TOR is definitely not one of them). Planetside 2, GW2, Firefall all promise to offer what I was looking for all those bleak years.

Just to show how WoW totally changed the paradigm and made the laughable commonplace: In SWTOR you kill Revan for his pants. Yes. That's what you do. You kill him so you can get new pants. While this might conceivably work in Sword & Sorcery setting, it's just ludicrous in SF and especialy SW. I didn't know that Luke, Han and Leia were after Darth Vader so they could take his uber helmet or boots. Once you stop and think about some WoW "givens" your head starts spinning.

It's not just that its "unrealistic" or even "non-immersive." It's just plain old ugly.

 

The problem is that gear/levels are trademarks of MMORPG PVP, you are supposed to be rewarded and have an advantage over others for "working" harder/longer to level up your character in terms of levels or gear.

Not saying your alternative system is wrong or bad, but that tends to be more applicable to a MMOFPS, where actual player twitch skill is supposed to be more important.

The style of combat you want has been very underserved in the MMO market space, but to say Blizzard caused the problem is incorrect, games such as DAOC. Lineage 1/2  and others started this long before them.

Never attribute anything to Blizzard, they invented nothing new, just took what exists and "tweaked" it to make it more popular.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Personally I've never seen the appeal of PvP in MMO's, especially when the focus is on what gear and weapons you have. It's basically an arms race rather than a game with any amount of real skill. If player X has a weapon that does 10 less DPS than player Y who also has +20 armor points, then we already know who's going to win. If you want PvP try games like Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or if you want a massive world then take a look at Planetside.

To me the appeal of PvP in mmos was always persistence and world size, while gear and levels were a detriment.

It is saddening that devs have gone completely the wrong way with this - and I blame WoW and Bliz for that. Instead of huge, persistent PvP worlds where skill and cunning matter, we have little instanced boxes where everything is decided by gear and grind.

Thank you for nothing, Blizzard. May you rot in hell.

Thankfully, there are mmos breaking the mold coming up (no SW:TOR is definitely not one of them). Planetside 2, GW2, Firefall all promise to offer what I was looking for all those bleak years.

Just to show how WoW totally changed the paradigm and made the laughable commonplace: In SWTOR you kill Revan for his pants. Yes. That's what you do. You kill him so you can get new pants. While this might conceivably work in Sword & Sorcery setting, it's just ludicrous in SF and especialy SW. I didn't know that Luke, Han and Leia were after Darth Vader so they could take his uber helmet or boots. Once you stop and think about some WoW "givens" your head starts spinning.

It's not just that its "unrealistic" or even "non-immersive." It's just plain old ugly.

 

The problem is that gear/levels are trademarks of MMORPG PVP, you are supposed to be rewarded and have an advantage over others for "working" harder/longer to level up your character in terms of levels or gear.

Not saying your alternative system is wrong or bad, but that tends to be more applicable to a MMOFPS, where actual player twitch skill is supposed to be more important.

The style of combat you want has been very underserved in the MMO market space, but to say Blizzard caused the problem is incorrect, games such as DAOC. Lineage 1/2  and others started this long before them.

Never attribute anything to Blizzard, they invented nothing new, just took what exists and "tweaked" it to make it more popular.

But it doesn't have to be that way. It's just a lazy-ass pointless convention, just like it was a convention with 2D shooters that you need to have EXACTLY 3 lives.

It's just lazy and pointless. When Space Invaders came out everybody and their dog started copying it down to and including 3 lives. It was considered inconcievable that a shooter could have any other number of lives but 3 and mechanics with energy or anything else were considered tauntamount to heresy and lunacy - Only the crazies could even concieve of such a thing which would never work anyway... Because "everybody knows" that 3 lives is the only proper way to do a 2D shooter and is one of the main reasons for Invaders success. (Yes, the last few sentences were ironic FYI)

When Doom came out, everybody and their dog copied it down to the ability to carry unlimited weapons. There were attempts to create a "realistic" shooter but they stuck to unlimited weapons like drunks to a freshly painted fence... because "everbody knew" that this is what FPSs are all about. Everybody knows that there is no way in hell a FPS with realistic physics and avatar behaviour would ever work, right? Who in hell would want to play a hyper-realistic FPS with real weapons?

It's just that stupidity and creative cowardice and laziness disgust me.

Why balancing is difficult, most of the issues stem from differant playing styles / abilities / skills.  So yes, the perfect system will never exist.  I think though PvP should be in MMO simple for those who wish it.  World PvP though?  NO.   And, if Dev are going to make a game world PvP then they had better make it a land based game put together exactly like EVE.  It's the only full PvP system I've seen that even come close to working.

And just a little bit more off-topic.

If Bioware wanted to stick to tried and proven "grind to stars" paradigm, they could have at least tried to make it just a little bit more Star Wars, ffs.

They could have replaced gear grind with skill and tactics grind. In this modely you don't kill Revan for his pants, but are rewarded with an exclusive skill you can use or an attribute boost, like a passive talent or something. "Young jedi learned a new way of the force when confronted with his adversary. At the edge of death, he reached deep down inside his being and found treasures he wasnt aware of before." That wouldn't have been waay more "realistic" and in spirit of Star Wars AND it would functionally be exactly the same as gear grind.

But oh no... We "know how things are done" so now we have Jedis killing each other for pants like it's a D&D game for 8 year olds. It's just plain disgusting. As an old SW fan, I feel my stomach turning when thinking about it.

I definitely believe there's a place for PvP in the MMO genre, just not the way it is now or has been since WoW came out. PvP used to be a cooperative effort, where balance was based on group play, not individual 1v1 fights. When you balance fights where every class is equal 1v1, then what's really the point in having different classes anymore? Without PvP, balance is less of an issue, and I know that's idealistic of me to say. I say this with the thought in mind that people shouldn't care how much better this or that class does, as long as they enjoy their class and the epic encounter is beaten. That's why I oppose dps meters in SWTOR. Most classes have more than one role in a given class. For example, we all know that an Infiltrator specced Shadow is a dps class, yet people forget that the Shadow also has some crowd control powers that could very well turn the tide of the battle. So what if he doesn't top the charts, as long as the objective is complete.

If everyone stopped worrying about what everyone else has and just focused on enjoying the game and their class, then we'd all be a lot better. I'm just saying introducing PvP into a game magnifies the balance issue, which sometimes is a non-issue that never-the-less becomes an issue to the devs because the PvP populace is so vocal on the forums. If PvE-centric games just remained PvE, without PvP at all, then we wouldn't have to worry about it, or the type of crowd PvP draws to games.

Now, the one exception is where a game is designed around PvP and balance is done with cooperative play in mind, not 1v1. Expecting DAoC is unrealistic, since that game had 40+ classes. That's a nightmare to balance. I thought DAoC was pretty well balanced, and if one class was more powerful than another, it was hard to notice since numbers on each side was never equal, not to mention having a 3rd realm to break up the party, plus you never had the same group setup due to the limiting amount of people allowed in a group, and the sheer number of classes and specs each realm had. I think GW did a good job too.

Anyways, I'm tired, so I'm probably not making much sense. I got off work at 5am and it's now 10am. Had to get some SWTOR game time in before bed or else I'd feel like I wasted a day, lol. You can research my post history and see I'm not a troll. This is just something I'm tired of seeing in MMORPG's since WoW came out, and I'm voicing my "opinion" that I'd rather just not have PvP at all than to deal with these people or their complaints anymore. Same goes for the min/maxers that feel if you aren't x class with y spec, with z gear setup, and putting out this much threat/dps/heals, you're not getting into the group when in fact encounters are designed to be beaten with less than optimal builds and group parings.

Originally posted by Halfmad

PvPers dont' ruin MMORPGs, developers who listen to PvPers who are whinging about balance on a non-PvP dedicated game ruin MMORPGs. Prioritising PvP balance over PvE balance when a majority of the player base need/want PvE too is what damages a game, that's one of the main reasons why DAOC fell to pieces after a few years and only the die-hards are left playing it.

Great game ruined by short sighted developers, who spend far too long balancing classes (and only causing more imbalances the more they did it) whilst adding more and more abilities to confuse and imbalance classes further.

Devs should focus on PvE balance, make PvP only skills aquirable/usable via PvP unless it's a PvP only game.

My opinion of course, coming from a huge fan of DAOC.

You do know that DAoC was primarily a PvP game right?  In fact when they started focusing on pve that's when the game started to die....

What planet you living on?

Originally posted by nate1980

I definitely believe there's a place for PvP in the MMO genre, just not the way it is now or has been since WoW came out. PvP used to be a cooperative effort, where balance was based on group play, not individual 1v1 fights. When you balance fights where every class is equal 1v1, then what's really the point in having different classes anymore?

THIS.

+ 1

/signed 

100%

If you have seen Rift or TOR's launch then you realize how true the title of this thread is.

In my order of people who destroy MMORPG's:

1. Pvp'rs expecting 100% perfection

2. Wow fans

^ Get rid of those two and this genre would be better in every single way

I can say the exact same thing about PvE:ers. They complain too alot about class balance and how their class X is not as effective as class Y and so on.

So I can also say that PvE:ers has done nothing good for the genre. They are the reason why this simplistic tank/healer/dps trinity exists because that is primarily made for PvE where the mobs are dumb enough to focus a tank instead of DPS and healers.

I think the OP just need to learn to accept that there are different playstyles and reasons for playing MMORPGs. Not everyone likes to endlessly fight against predictable AI mobiles.