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Originally posted by Eir_S

Call of Duty [Modern Warfare 2] cost $40 million to $50 million to produce

there is NO difference between the millions of players online at a time in an online shooter and an MMO

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See, I did say that the budget for the game was 40-50M.

I did not add

3) MW2 is also targeting console markets

because I thought that is obvious and did not feel like there is much need to point out how way off your example is...

MMOs and multiplayer games have vastly different architecture. MMOs are miles more complex, it is a client-server application. The difference is huge.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Oh, and since you're comparing the two games...$15 for 3 maps is nickel and diming btw.

Are you required to pay the $15 to keep playing a game that would otherwise sit on your shelf?  That's what MMO's do.  You actually have to stop playing a product you paid more than box price for if you stop feeding the machine.

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Originally posted by Eir_S

Are you required to pay the $15 to keep playing a game that would otherwise sit on your shelf?  That's what MMO's do.  You actually have to stop playing a product you paid more than box price for if you stop feeding the machine.

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Purpose of any business is to sell for more than production costs.

You do not like the price? Do not pay and go find similar product for a price that suits you.

Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by bobbler

Hey guys. It's me.

I didn't read anyones posts because .......

........
come at me grammar/spelling nazis.

I didn't read your post.

Yeah, there is a difference between being a spell nazi and not understanding what someone writes due to poor language skills and extremely bad spelling.

English is my second lanuage, I spell wrong at times and no one on this forum have ever complained, because I try to make sense.

If you have such poor language skills that people have hard understanding you I recommend you to use a spellchecker, it is a basic and simple thing that solves the problem, some browsers have a built in one.

I don't care is someone spells a little wrong at times, but when it gets too much it get really hard to read. If the rest of us can make the effort so can you guys as well.

Wow Loke I would have never known.

You are a damn good poster here on MMORPG. One of my favs anyways.

English is my native language, and I try to differentiate between "their",  "they're", and "there" pretty much consistently, but I have a tendacy to screw up format simply from posting while Vicodin influenced. Even then my posting stands head N shoulders above some individuals that attempt the condescending smack based on stereo-types of game preference.

Anyways this was a tangent of the OP.  Although it terms of TOR, I suppose that would be counter to being a Black BiSector . :)

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by dubyahite
Oh, and since you're comparing the two games...$15 for 3 maps is nickel and diming btw.

Are you required to pay the $15 to keep playing a game that would otherwise sit on your shelf?  That's what MMO's do.  You actually have to stop playing a product you paid more than box price for if you stop feeding the machine.

Irrelevant. $15 dollars for 3 maps is nickel and diming. To line the investors pockets as you put it.  

Comparing console games to MMO's is pointless anyways. apple's to oranges.  

Like I said, Bioware kept their entire development staff after launch. Do you think the Modern Warfare staff stays in tact after that game launches or do they move on to develop MW 4 - 15, and then charge you $60 every year for the same game over and over again.  

Of all the games you could use as an example of how not to nickel and dime people, call of duty is a pretty piss poor example.  With all of the DLC and the release of a new game every year, I know people that spend 100+ dollars a year on Call of Duty games. Let's not forget that XBox Live subscription either.

So yes, an MMO might be a bit more expensive (box + $180/year) but can you honestly say that you don't get waaaay more content for your money than with a game like CoD?  A CoD game has a lifespan of about a year at max, before it becomes obsolete.  An mmo has a lifespan of many years if you stick with it.  

This comparison is absurd, you should really give up on it. 

Originally posted by Kidon

I will gladly pay 15euros or whatever the sub is for this game, but i tell u know, i wont be playing GW2 if it being free. But i can give you a hint, dont play the game if you dont like it, because a free game will have no updated content or any decent content, yes even gw just wait and see, i pay for SWTOR because i expect BW to go thru with their part or the agreement, wich is Content update with regularity.

ummm u have any idea how many expansions guild wars had?

Originally posted by lightningjac

Originally posted by Kidon

I will gladly pay 15euros or whatever the sub is for this game, but i tell u know, i wont be playing GW2 if it being free. But i can give you a hint, dont play the game if you dont like it, because a free game will have no updated content or any decent content, yes even gw just wait and see, i pay for SWTOR because i expect BW to go thru with their part or the agreement, wich is Content update with regularity.

ummm u have any idea how many expansions guild wars had?

Isn't it 3? Meh

Dismissing my comparison because of the markets they're aimed at is typical.  GW2 is going the non-sub-fee route and are completely confident in doing so, and their budget is massive, and there's no doubt in the minds of the industry that they will succeed.

The concept on the last page that "box price + subscription fee is necessary" for an MMO is 100% conjecture, is my point.  Plain and simple.

As for my example being absurd, I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who questions why sub fees exist, not how much they cost or whether or not everyone can afford it.  They don't exist for a good enough reason to the player to continue to be a prevalent payment model, and they never will.  They keep you playing in mundane ways to fill up time so you stay addicted and playing until the next renewal period.  That's absurd.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37537/Opinion_Guild_Wars_2_Fights_The_Subscription_Racket.php

To be honest, if the game wasn't P2P I probably wouldn't feel the same drive to accomplish things in game. Games that are F2P never hold me for long, and I can't explain it. Maybe it is all psychological.

That being said, I absolutely love this MMO and will be playing it for a while.

What?  My comparison doesn't continue to fall apart, you're actually adding things to it that I never said just to debunk them.  

Can you play COD once you've bought the box?  Yes.

Can you even play SWTOR or Rift without commiting financial details or with game cards, several months' worth of fees, to play something you just paid for?  No.  Not even for a minute.  You bought a hunk of plastic for 60 bucks that is useless without a wallet to go with it.

Your comparison is falling apart if anything, in fact I don't know why you brought up maps or the "elite" plan in the first place.  They are NOT necessary for playing the game, and your argument is not really relevant.  I wasn't even talking to you or about you, and especially not about cash shops, since I believe they are viable since they're not necessary.

Can anyone here resaonably argue with either mine or Colin Johansen's arguments that subscriptions are not necessary to make a profit?  No.  You just say they are because that's what these companies have told you.

"There's an incorrect belief out there that it's more expensive server-wise to run a giant open world game than it is to run an instanced game such as Guild Wars." There's a confidence about Johanson when he talks about the way MMOs are, an assured-ness that's almost akin to an investigative journalist blowing open some great story.

"The server bandwidth now is getting reasonably inexpensive enough that you don't need to charge a fee for online games," he explained

Again, I'm going to have to go with the experts.

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Originally posted by Eir_S

I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who questions why sub fees exist

The concept on the last page that "box price + subscription fee is necessary" for an MMO is 100% conjecture, is my point. Plain and simple.

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They exist for sole reason:

Companies are asking for it and people pay.

There is no other reason. It isn't nickel diming, it is a product offered for a price. You can find different product for different prices on the market, it is up to each to pick one that they find the best suitable.

Yes, it is a conjecture, I was never denying that but it is also well supported by evidence - market.

It is also well reasoned:

The thing about purchase fee + subscription is that is has the best value of revenue/user which is crucial for large investments. If you would go for different model, the player base required could be easily unreasonably high.

Example:

SWTOR goal is 500k subscribers that is about 7.5M USD per month.

Let's say that F2P games make about 1.5 USD/user.

To generate same revenue needed for SWTOR based on F2P model, you would need not 500k subscribers but 5M users.

That is huge difference. Leaving issues with having 5M users alone, it might easily seem as less achievable goal - 5M users.

That's all I was really saying, the company charges for it and may even think that it's necessary to keep themselves afloat (though honestly EA and Bioware hardly need the money from an MMO to keep going), and people pay it.  The industry, Sony in particular, are noticing the potential benefits of other payment methods however.  It's not going to change overnight, but if I'm going to pay for something, I want that money to go towards the game, not their other products (as has been rumored Blizzard has a practice of doing).

Originally posted by Eir_S

Dismissing my comparison because of the markets they're aimed at is typical.  GW2 is going the non-sub-fee route and are completely confident in doing so, and their budget is massive, and there's no doubt in the minds of the industry that they will succeed.

The concept on the last page that "box price + subscription fee is necessary" for an MMO is 100% conjecture, is my point.  Plain and simple.

As for my example being absurd, I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who questions why sub fees exist, not how much they cost or whether or not everyone can afford it.  They don't exist for a good enough reason to the player to continue to be a prevalent payment model, and they never will.  They keep you playing in mundane ways to fill up time so you stay addicted and playing until the next renewal period.  That's absurd.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37537/Opinion_Guild_Wars_2_Fights_The_Subscription_Racket.php

I'd pay the cost per month is a triviality about 5-10 minutes work real life for hours and hours of gaming. Who cares if the payments are necessary it's good value for money. If I go out and do most other entertainment activities it will cost me  aheck of a lot more than an MMO subscription.

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Originally posted by Eir_S

It's not going to change overnight, but if I'm going to pay for something, I want that money to go towards the game, not their other products (as has been rumored Blizzard has a practice of doing).

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Change? Vast majority of MMO market operates under F2P model. Saying that the model is suitable for every MMO per principle is just silly.

And Blizzard is doing it right, it is their money, not yours.

haters always gona hate no matter what ppl do ...

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Eir_S

It's not going to change overnight, but if I'm going to pay for something, I want that money to go towards the game, not their other products (as has been rumored Blizzard has a practice of doing).

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Change? Vast majority of MMO market operates under F2P model. Saying that the model is suitable for every MMO per principle is just silly.

And Blizzard is doing it right, it is their money, not yours.

True, it is their money, but we can agree to disagree on what is "right".  My (and Blizzard's) country's major ongoing problems stem from its greedy big businesses, it extends to more than just players of MMOs, I'm not the only person who feels this way.