Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Mynsc

Completely agree with Danny Wojcicki and it was refreshing to see one of the staff share this view. Disappointed thought that he was the only one... would have expected higher standards from the staff of one of the biggest MMO news sites.

Well, no, by and large the staff at MMORPG are happy to play standard theme park MMORPG's and SWTOR is the next great step in that evolutionary chain, not surprising at all that they would favor the title, perhaps a bit more than they should have.

 

If the mmorpg staff are considered a representative sample of mmo- gamers, then Bioware appears to have hit its mark -- won't please everyone, but makes most happy.

Some of the more critical people on these boards really need to realize that they are possibly in a very small demographic that won't be a primary target of a game developer.  Fortunately, there are other game genres.

As far as the actual article goes, I like the round table format.  I actually wish it could be a bit more in-depth.

If we pretend this is gymnastics or ice-skating, we can throw out the highest and lowest scores to get an average (meaning Danny's and Bill's scores go away)....Suzie's 8, Garrett's 9, Adam's 8.5, and Luuuuuuke's 9...for an average of 34.5/40 or 86%.  Looking at it that way, the scores seem to fall more in line with what the majority expects.

What I take away from the article though is the following --

1.) I can't use Bill Murphy as a reference for reviews, because I consistently disagree with him. There's nothing wrong with that, we just see things differently.  I do like Bill's articles though, as they are often spot on.

2.) I think Suzie may actually be the better reference point for me in terms of reviews as she discloses what she looks at and I think I see those same things.

3.) I haven't read much of Garrett's work at all, but didn't really get much out of his blurb.  I also think he missed an opportunity -- It would have been nice if he commented on any issues with friends getting out of sync with their quests (or if it's not an issue -- historically that's been an issue in mmos). 

4.) Adam''s part is basically "it's star wars and has a story."  Got that, thanks! ( ' ;

5.) Danny, the new hero of the harshest TOR critics, probably would benefit from more than a single paragraph. It's jarring to see his score and summary compared to the other more positive reviews and so I'd be curious to know why he doesn't like the PvP or crafting.

6.) Luuuuke's immersion is exciting to read about.  For me, story as the 4th pillar has never been an issue and so it bothers me that it is hyped as much as it is.  Story/Lore has been in numerous games, including WoW and City of Heroes in paticular and I think it's more about Bioware's bold presentation of it -- cinematics, voiceover, music -- that should be credited more than the writing team (not that the writing team shouldn't get any props, but that's the difference maker).

In the end, I think TOR will be a wait and see approach for me.  It's one of the few games I never actually bothered to Beta, just because it didn't really entice me the way and still doesn't necessarily.  Plus, seeing the entire "recent posts" section overwhelmed with TOR forum stuff is a bit of a turn off -- I'm eager for the drama to subside....

For those enjoying it, I hope you continue to.  For those not enjoying it, I hope you do find something genuine to enjoy, rather than ragging on other people.

Most of these reviews (except the 6/10) hit the nail on the head. I've been playing MMO's since EQ. Not since EQ2 have I felt this kind of excitement. It's hard to pull myself away. I played through 4 builds in beta (not just weekends), and 9 days into live, I still can't enough. I find myself staying up way too late just to see whats around the corner.

And the best part? My first toon is still only level 25. I'm loving this so much that I playing every single quest I can find, even if its grey to me, because I want to know what happens.

Now I won't say the game is perfect. There are serious things its lacking. Character creation and customization is a real problem. Housing is so seriously lacking, there aren't words. Crafting I find more frustrating than anything else, mostly because it costs so much money to do and there are so few nodes that you almost have no choice but to spend that cash (which sucks because I've always loved crafting). I really don't get why every single new MMO feels the need to start crafting at level 10 when you've already outleveled the nodes and items  you can craft. 

That being said, the flashpoints are so much fun, the conversations make grouping much more worthwhile for me when I'm normally a complete soloer, and I LOVE how many quests there are. Usually in these games, there are just barely enough quests to allow you to level. In this game, there are so many quests that some of them are inevitably grey and green as I level. There's so many choices, and I just love it. 

Lets face it, you cant really even take most reviewers seriously any more. Look at game trailers, play trials/beta and experience it for yourself before you put down the $40-50. The guy that gave it a 6/10 spoke on my behalf, its a good game for star wars fans, but it really doesn't offer anything for the rest of the crowd. 

Its a shame, i think bioware would've done a fantasy mmo with elves and orcs better than they did with light sabers and phasers. 

And many of you seem to be getting pissy against the blows against the combat system. Action oriented combat is the future of all MMOs whether you like it or not. Its going to sweep the industry, and hotkey mmos will be tomorrow what 2d/sprite based games are today. 

Even free mmos like vindictus, dragon nest and rusty hearts are more original than this game. Its just a shame they're shackled by horrible publishers and have poor customer service. That will all change though, TERA, and B&S will shake the industry in the west heavily despite originating in the East. And of GW2 is a blend of action/hotkey, we will have to wait and see how that turns out. 

Anyways, this was all my opinion. 

Originally posted by coolgy

Lets face it, you cant really even take most reviewers seriously any more. Look at game trailers, play trials/beta and experience it for yourself before you put down the $40-50. The guy that gave it a 6/10 spoke on my behalf, its a good game for star wars fans, but it really doesn't offer anything for the rest of the crowd. 

 

Its a shame, i think bioware would've done a fantasy mmo with elves and orcs better than they did with light sabers and phasers. 

 

And many of you seem to be getting pissy against the blows against the combat system. Action oriented combat is the future of all MMOs whether you like it or not. Its going to sweep the industry, and hotkey mmos will be tomorrow what 2d/sprite based games are today. 

 

Even free mmos like vindictus, dragon nest and rusty hearts are more original than this game. Its just a shame they're shackled by horrible publishers and have poor customer service. That will all change though, TERA, and B&S will shake the industry in the west heavily despite originating in the East. And of GW2 is a blend of action/hotkey, we will have to wait and see how that turns out. 

 

Anyways, this was all my opinion. 

 

Just because you like the action oriented combat doesn't mean everyone else does nor does it mean it will be the big revolution for the genre. We have yet to see how that mechanic will be recieved by large amounts of players outside the east (where the game flopped). So until that mechanic in the few games it's in makes it here and actually succeeds it's a bit premature to say it's the almighty godsend to change everything.

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by coolgy

Lets face it, you cant really even take most reviewers seriously any more. Look at game trailers, play trials/beta and experience it for yourself before you put down the $40-50. The guy that gave it a 6/10 spoke on my behalf, its a good game for star wars fans, but it really doesn't offer anything for the rest of the crowd. 

 

Its a shame, i think bioware would've done a fantasy mmo with elves and orcs better than they did with light sabers and phasers. 

 

And many of you seem to be getting pissy against the blows against the combat system. Action oriented combat is the future of all MMOs whether you like it or not. Its going to sweep the industry, and hotkey mmos will be tomorrow what 2d/sprite based games are today. 

 

Even free mmos like vindictus, dragon nest and rusty hearts are more original than this game. Its just a shame they're shackled by horrible publishers and have poor customer service. That will all change though, TERA, and B&S will shake the industry in the west heavily despite originating in the East. And of GW2 is a blend of action/hotkey, we will have to wait and see how that turns out. 

 

Anyways, this was all my opinion. 

 

 

Just because you like the action oriented combat doesn't mean everyone else does nor does it mean it will be the big revolution for the genre. We have yet to see how that mechanic will be recieved by large amounts of players outside the east (where the game flopped). So until that mechanic in the few games it's in makes it here and actually succeeds it's a bit premature to say it's the almighty godsend to change everything.

 

 

We already HAVE games in the west featuring action combat... you may not see it because you only play games from the west or something, but you can clearly see the impact of action oriented combat in the East. Just because we dont pump out double digit MMO titles every year, its not so apparent here.

The only person I am interested in reading any longer is Danny. He's apparently the only objective person in the bunch and tells it like it is. While I typically stray from calling people fanbois, 9/10 on a game with abysmal support, numerous bugs, the worst auction house in the universe (no pun intended), etc. is just well... being a fanboi.

It's a good game. Don't get me wrong, 9/10? That's not journalism.

Originally posted by chaosngn

The only person I am interested in reading any longer is Danny. He's apparently the only objective person in the bunch and tells it like it is. While I typically stray from calling people fanbois, 9/10 on a game with abysmal support, numerous bugs, the worst auction house in the universe (no pun intended), etc. is just well... being a fanboi.

It's a good game. Don't get me wrong, 9/10? That's not journalism.

rofl... so you don't agree with any of the others, which makes the only one "logical" to be the one that says 6/10. Uh huh. Dream on. You know that isn't true. 

Originally posted by Zezda

I'm getting really disheartened these days by the ludicrous scores people give games. I wonder if it's just that our expectations are non-existant or wether there is some other problem? It isn't even as if I'm incredibly old and miss the 'good old days'. What I do appreciate though is good game design and implementation of technologies within games (and software/hardware in general of course).

Games should ALWAYS be scored relative to each other and by the level of standard we have come to expect from a game in this day and age. Are we really giving this game better scores just because it is Star Wars? Shouldn't we be doing the opposite given the utterly massive scale and limitless possibilities the IP brings? Fair enough, they didn't want a sandbox game and that's fine.. but comon.. You take one of the biggest and most famous IP's to have ever been created and all you managed is to copy the feature set from other products in your genre?! How did they even manage that??? Story in an MMO I hear you all say... yeah that would be true.. if story was actually the focus. I mean seriously.. the game gives you how many choices in dialogue? Proper story driven games that have had some serious work put into them make Mass Effect/Dragon Age and SW:TOR's story look like a childrens book. You want an example of story in an RPG go play Planescape: Torment and then come back and tell me SW:TOR is story driven. Let's not even get started on the fact that your, already limited, choices hardly effect anything story-wise in the first place then shall we?

Here are some examples of games that deserve a score of 8/9 or above when they were released.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/planescape-torment

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/neverwinter-nights

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation/oddworld-abes-oddysee

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/counter-strike-source

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/battlefield-3

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/mechwarrior-4-vengeance

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/command-conquer

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/frozen-synapse

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/sid-meiers-civilization-iii

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/sid-meiers-alpha-centauri

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/age-of-empires

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/star-wars-jedi-knight-jedi-academy

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare

I played SW:TOR beta a lot when I got the chance due to boredom and you know what? It doesn't hold so much as a candle compared to those games I've listed above and that has nothing to do with having fond memories of these games, some of them I hated (Abe's Oddysee being one in particular), but instead I respect what they bring to the table for the format and genre they are within.

So what if SW:TOR is polished? Why is it being marked up for this? We all know that a MMO that isn't polished will do terribly. Polish is expected, not a bonus. Something that is expected of more or less any game in the genre simply can't be marked as something above average unless the level of quality is leaps and bounds above the competition. So what if the combat works.. the combat in Baldur's Gate & Torment 'works' but you wouldn't expect it of an RPG from 2012 would you?! We need to stop giving out ludicrously good marks for stuff like this...

Props to Danny for being sensible and calling it what it is. There are plenty of MMO's out there that match and even surpass the overall quality of SW:TOR, in my honest opinion. SW:TOR most certainly does not match what I would expect from one of the biggest IP's to date and it certainly does not match the quality of overall feel of a game with so much financial backing. I would personally give SW:TOR somewhere in the region of 6.5-7.0 out of 10. Had the game came out in 2007-2008 my score would have been a much better 8.5-9 out of 10. Sadly they completely missed the mark with this one by several years. No doubt it will have a good following, but then pretty much anything labeled Star Wars does.

Wanted to quote this because the part I highlighted in orange stood out to me.

Originally posted by chaosngn

The only person I am interested in reading any longer is Danny. He's apparently the only objective person in the bunch and tells it like it is. While I typically stray from calling people fanbois, 9/10 on a game with abysmal support, numerous bugs, the worst auction house in the universe (no pun intended), etc. is just well... being a fanboi.

It's a good game. Don't get me wrong, 9/10? That's not journalism.

 

this one

Originally posted by Timacek

Originally posted by chaosngn

The only person I am interested in reading any longer is Danny. He's apparently the only objective person in the bunch and tells it like it is. While I typically stray from calling people fanbois, 9/10 on a game with abysmal support, numerous bugs, the worst auction house in the universe (no pun intended), etc. is just well... being a fanboi.

It's a good game. Don't get me wrong, 9/10? That's not journalism.

 

I also have to agree.

Forget about the numbers for a sec, just look at what they actually WROTE. Danny's is the only one that really comes off as a well thought out critique. The others?

Well, we have a range from :

'The overall game is same old same old, but I'm loving the story - 9/10'

'Say what you want about the game, it's F***CKING STAR WARS!! - 8.5/10'

There's even a review who has basically only played through one of the starter zones 'I just finished Esseless, and while I haven't done anything else, I really enjoyed it! 9/10' (don't get me started on how it's somehow magically 'okay' to give a positive review on something with minimal experience, but not a negative one.)

Does the reviewer reflect some of my own views? Absolutely, but I've also seen positive reviews on the game that I can also respect and somewhat agree with.

We get it, a lot of people like this game (i'm also enjoying it for what it is), but 'I like star wars, so this game is awesome!' is not journalism, it's fanboyism. The whole point of journalism is to raise issues, question things, and provide objective feedback.

I was a fan of SWG but with all i have seen One thing keep comming back downtime maintenance and waiting to get in ...am still going to wait before i decide if i play...

Just because someone likes something doesn't make them a "fanboi". Knock off the "I'm superior to you because I'm not a fanboi" crap. There's no reason for it other than trolling. If you don't agree about a game, thats fine. But running around calling people names is something else entirely. No one is calling YOU names, so how about you do the adult thing and not behave badly? 

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Exposed for?

Standing up and being happy about his opinion? Or the bragging? Guess you could call it that.

I do not care about any of their opinions myself, just thought the high scores were not right.

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i would agree with danny's review more so than any of the others, no way is swtor a 9/10..what exactly does it do to warrant a 9/10 that mmo's haven't done before. i find the combat to be bland and unresponsive. i guess i come from a tme when mmo's were more socially interactive and social interaction didnt amount to spamming lfg in general chat. cantinas are empty, npc are lifeless statues. pvp is one big stun and puntfest. The only thing swtor has going for it is the story and i dont play mmo's for the story. if i wanted a good story i'd play mass effect or baldurs gate.

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he is entitled to his opinion! {mod edit}

Originally posted by nerovipus32

i would agree with danny's review more so than any of the others, no way is swtor a 9/10..what exactly does it do to warrant a 9/10 that mmo's haven't done before. i find the combat to be bland and unresponsive. i guess i come from a tme when mmo's were more socially interactive and social interaction didnt amount to spamming lfg in general chat. cantinas are empty, npc are lifeless statues. pvp is one big stun and puntfest. The only thing swtor has going for it is the story and i dont play mmo's for the story. if i wanted a good story i'd play mass effect or baldurs gate.

It all depends on how you define the 1 - 10 model.  to me,  10 is perfect,  9 is amazing, 8 is great and 7 is good -  7 and above being positive... and my personal opinion is between an 8 and 9 for SWTOR.  

SWTOR does have more than just story going for it, but its all a matter of perception.