Pretty sure this is one of dem der eye of the beholder things. I don't remember single player RPGs having any kind of social aspect...

I probably won't pay for it, but it's not a single player game, not even a soloer's game. I've been encouraged into grouping (and ended up grouping) more in this game than in any major MMO after Vanguard. In fact, this is a co-op player's game through and through, because even the content not originally intended for a group is more fun and more rewarding when done in a group. There are actual initiatives for grouping here.

Also, the game has nearly all of the standard features any rational definition of an MMO would require. You cannot define what an MMO is to your liking, just going on "how it feels". If I recall correctly, what the UO developers originally meant by MMO was "more than 300 players in an online world". That's it. Of course, they did end up getting more, but still... :) SWTOR has all the major parts that make up a typical example of the genre (such as trading, co-op play including open world group content areas and world bosses, open world pvp, resource farming and crafting). So questioning whether it's an MMO comes across as mere polemicism to me... 

On the other hand, strictly in terms of how it "feels", yeah, to me the game does feel a bit too walled-off and sterile for its own good. The zone instancing really bugs me, I've never made peace with that... The lack of swimming, dynamic weather and day/night cycle still bugs me, I've never made peace with that. Also the fact that the whole game is based on just combat is the biggest letdown for me in terms of this game's design. To me, non-combat activities go a long way to bring in that "world" feeling.

So I'd probably say, sure it's an MMO, but it doesn't feel as free, open, and alive as some other MMOs.

Originally posted by Afterlife

Pretty sure this is one of dem der eye of the beholder things. I don't remember single player RPGs having any kind of social aspect...

You would be correct.

But as I've already stated, I've grouped and been social more in SWToR than I have in a bit. And I constantly see people looking for groups.

So are you saying that even though I am grouping and that people are looking for groups that no one is grouping?

This is a tired mantra.

Get in there and group. It's not hard. If you don't like the game "great". There's definitley stuff not to like. But it's hard to take any arguments for it just being a solo game when there are people who are clearly grouping.

Unless of course people's idea of "grouping" is hand holding to get them to the group. Then I have no answer as I believe that it's one's own responsibility to take care of their own fun.

Originally posted by eddieg50

When I would play Eve, I asked myself the same question, who would pay for this crap with a dark screen and tiny dots on it, but there are people out there who are into spread sheets and such who love the game, I love a game with voice over (Loved the first 20 lvls of AOC) good quests (Vanguard has good ones also), a great story line (SWTOR crushes the comp here no one even close), nice combat (AOC is better but only if you are melee), immersive atmospere (Lotro is also very, very good here) and a huge team to help the game grow (only wow here and they are headed in the wrong direction).   So to each his own I guess.  A Sandbox lover is gooing to hate themparks and maybe visa versa, a WOW lover may hate SWTOR because of the competition, etc, etc

problem is that the implementation of story in current MMOs contradicts the nature of MMOs.

You pay monthly for a single player game w/ co-op.

I think it's a swindle, a thievery scam.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Afterlife

Pretty sure this is one of dem der eye of the beholder things. I don't remember single player RPGs having any kind of social aspect...

You would be correct.

But as I've already stated, I've grouped and been social more in SWToR than I have in a bit. And I constantly see people looking for groups.

So are you saying that even though I am grouping and that people are looking for groups that no one is grouping?

This is a tired mantra.

Get in their and group. It's not hard. If you don't like the game "great". There's definitley stuff not to like. But it's hard to take any arguments for it just being a solo game when there are people who are clearly grouping.

Unless of course people's idea of "grouping" is hand holding to get them to the group. Then I have no answer as I believe that it's one's own responsibility to take care of their own fun.

I don't play Swtor, it's not for me...

...but I do like to be challenged when I play games. Granted there are group quests in the game which allow you to socialize with other players, but I hear most of the game is soloable.

So, unless you're having fun with some friends, wouldn't grouping just make the quests trivial and dull?

I will be paying 15 bucks a month for this.  I laugh every time I hear anyone state this is a "WoW Clone".  Sure they share aspects but this is the least like WoW of any major MMORPG that has hit the market.  As for it being a solo game that is the most incorrect statement I have heard in a long time.  There are more group quests and things to do during leveling than most MMO's Ever had.  By level 10 you have I believe 3 group quests and a flashpoint(instance).  As far as reroll value sure I have heard the complaint that only the class story line changes and all the other quests are the same.  However with conversation choices you can run through the same quest and have it give you a completely different experience than when you ran through it before.  Not to mention if you bored doing reg old quests you can do space combat...which is not as cool as if they say made it like playing tie fighter(would of rocked) but is still fun and better than I was expecting.  Anyways let the trolls troll as for me I will be in game having the biggest blast I have had in any game since the first month I played WoW over 5 years ago.

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Originally posted by Gaudrath
People would pay a lot more for a giant turd in a Darth Vader suit, and EA knows it. It's Star Wars, it doesn't have to be good.

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Originally posted by Gylfi

 

You pay monthly for a single player game w/ co-op.

I think it's a swindle, a thievery scam.

How odd. Somebody must have innovated big-time in single player game design. Otherwise in a single player game, how would we have:

• Constant trading. 
• Constantly groups forming for open world heroic zones.
• Frequently groups forming for world bosses.
• Frequently groups forming for open world PVP.
• Farming resources and competing with other players for them / or sharing them.
• RP get-togethers with lots of players.

If what you say is true and SWTOR is a single player game, Bioware are the kings of innovation for pulling this off! :)

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by Bama1267

Originally posted by xion12121

          But it is not an mmo its more of a single player RPG with some chat thrown in.

If you do't like it, fine . But just because you are playing it solo when it can be played with people doesnt make it any less of an MMO. That statement was ludicrous at best.

i think most of the people will play it solo. And even those who don't, most of their /played IS solo.

Majority wins. TOR is not actually a  MMO, it's a MMO only on papers.

I am sorry but this quote is silly!  By your logic every game classified as an MMO is not actually an MMO every single one!   If I am wrong please let me know what game is an MMO?

Originally posted by Deolus

I don't play Swtor, it's not for me...

...but I do like to be challenged when I play games. Granted there are group quests in the game which allow you to socialize with other players, but I hear most of the game is soloable.

So, unless you're having fun with some friends, wouldn't grouping just make the quests trivial and dull?

 

That's a very good question.

From what I'm seeing, all the storied quests are soloable. whether or not they scale a bit to accomodate the additinal players is unknown to me. I suspect "no" but can't be certain.

Where the grouping (for me) seems to be happening is in the heroic quests. As I have discovered they, at least at the level you get them, don't seem to be soloable at all. I came close once but that was it. The additional people made these quests possible. Sometimes they were easy and sometimes "not so much".

Having said that, I suspect this isn't a "we're making everything a challenge" type of mmo. Of course I haven't played everything in the game but my sense is that players get a moderate challenge at best. Some of the higher lvl flashpoints might contain more challenge. I know my first flashpoint had "some" challenge and we even had two deaths but we didn't wipe.

I also suspect that one's mileage may vary. Better players might not find these challenging at all and everyone else might enjoy a "moderate" challenge.

If you are looking for something like "Demon's Souls" or "Dark Souls" then this is NOT it.

repeat "not". "it".

Anyone who says SW:TOR is a single player game is either not playing it or such a horrible person that nobody will let them team with them. Oh wait, or they are so used to the LFD tool that they actually forgot how to walk out into the game world and find the area they need to group up at, maybe thats it!! Yeah, you do actually have to walk to the group content, and if you dont, well then you are going to be playing a single player game. 

Oh, and yeah, I'll be paying $15 a month here, along with my $15 to WoW (I fell for the gimic of giving them a year to get D3 - yeah, yeah, I know it was just a marketting gimic to make sure thier sub totals were padded sufficiantly for this next year, but I have been waiting for D3 FOREVER). I also have a lifetime with LoTRO, a lifetime with Rome Rising, and pay to support Xsyon's development in the hopes it actually gets someplace. Oh yeah I almost forgot, I'll be dumping cash on Lineage Eternal too when it comes out in 2012 or 2013. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Deolus

I don't play Swtor, it's not for me...

...but I do like to be challenged when I play games. Granted there are group quests in the game which allow you to socialize with other players, but I hear most of the game is soloable.

So, unless you're having fun with some friends, wouldn't grouping just make the quests trivial and dull?

 

That's a very good question.

From what I'm seeing, all the storied quests are soloable. whether or not they scale a bit to accomodate the additinal players is unknown to me. I suspect "no" but can't be certain.

Where the grouping (for me) seems to be happening is in the heroic quests. As I have discovered they, at least at the level you get them, don't seem to be soloable at all. I came close once but that was it. The additional people made these quests possible. Sometimes they were easy and sometimes "not so much".

Having said that, I suspect this isn't a "we're making everything a challenge" type of mmo. Of course I haven't played everything in the game but my sense is that players get a moderate challenge at best. Some of the higher lvl flashpoints might contain more challenge. I know my first flashpoint had "some" challenge and we even had two deaths but we didn't wipe.

I also suspect that one's mileage may vary. Better players might not find these challenging at all and everyone else might enjoy a "moderate" challenge.

If you are looking for something like "Demon's Souls" or "Dark Souls" then this is NOT it.

repeat "not". "it".

Yeah people who say everything is soloable are skipping a large part of the content.  Flashpoints and almost all(not the 2 person group quests but pretty much all of the 4 person heroics) are not soloable unless you do them at a green or grey to your level(green gives little exp...grey none).  This is a game you can do your quest line and get to max level solo.  But so is every other MMO, it is not a game you can complete all the quests in solo.  I'm all for people not liking the game if they don't like it, but don't lie.  I heard this at work and everyone is saying it....Strange thing is almost always it is third party(someone told me it was soloable) I have not talked to anyone other then hardcore trolls that say this.

Just to add to my last post I'm sure they will also be adding things like heroic or Tier stages to end game flashpoints.  I have always been a personal fan of making Heroic difficulty for all instances so that you can play your favorite ones end game no matter what level you first did them at.  People are looking into the futurure too much.  Oh end game won't be that challenging and nothing to do 6 months down the road.  Like Bio is just going to sit there and not do anything or work on anything new during those 6 months.  Stuff like insane difficulty flashpoints for end game are not a requirement or needed at launch.  Launch the game, see how people do, see how difficult stuff is for the real players and then add and modify as needed.  People treat this like it's a finished product that can't be added to.

Oh and quit comparing this to a game that has been out 8 years...had 3(almost 4) expansions and probably hundreds of patches....Rant Over

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Tyvolus

 

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Originally posted by Sovrath
As long as I'm enjoying myself I'll pay the sub.
What burns me is that whenever I see posts like this I so want to be able to walk into the lives of the poster and start pointing at things and saying "really? This?" And you ask me that?"
People are different, why is this so hard to grasp? Some people actualy pay for cars when they live in an area with perfectly good public transportation systems. To me THAT'S a waste of hard earned money.
But to each his/her own.

---

 

I totally understand your point. But, the flip side is, we are all here because we have an interest in MMOs. And when a company like EA/Bioware comes on the scene and clearly makes a single player RPG with multi-player capability and wants to force this new model on the genre, people will take offense. this is not an MMO. they have no right to call it one. If EA/Bioware wants to start charging for their single player RPGS, fine -- I wont play them, but for those who wish to -- go ahead. You have to understand, this really looks like a step to start charging players for EVERY game thet play. About as stupid as banks charging their customer to use debit cards. Gamers are upset about this -- as they should be. I wont support this game and havent bought a EA/Bioware game in years....and I used to LOVE bioware. NWN is still one of my all time fav games. EA ruined them.

I can see your point but what people are missing is that this isn't a "solo player game".

Oh sure, some can't approach it in any other way nor can they see beyond the initilal story mechanics that are in place.

but I, as a soloer, have grouped more n SWToR than I have in, well, a long time.

So how is that a single player game? It's not that I'm doing everything grouped but there are quests and areas that just require groups.

To that end I am constantly seeing people looking for groups. So those that are having a hard time and think this is just a "solo game" need to either shift their paradigm a bit or need to look harder.

Now, having said that, I don't want every game to be a constant leech on my wallet. As a point of note, I'm not a "cheap" person. I believe in paying for my entertainment.

But if I am getting value for my dollar then it is always worth it.

For instance, I don't have cable. I can afford cable but at this point it's just not worth it to me. So I don't pay what many peopel pay per month in order to access that type of entertaiment.

I also don't have a car as I see it as an extreme waste of money and time. Time being getting it serviced, looking for parking, possible parking tickets (I live in a city) etc.

I do eat out all the time. Some might think that a waste of money and I look at it as I don't have to cook, I don't have to clean dishes and I get a better meal than if I made something myself.

What I'm trying to say is that we all find ways to spend our money in ways that others might not quite understand.

 

And since I and others find value in the game that Bioware has created (and as long as that sub fee brings us what we perceive as "value") then it will be worth it for us to pay for access to their game.

If a game developer creates something and asks for a fee and it's not of value I just won't buy it. But I'm not going to sit in perplexity at why others might pay for it when clearly I pay for video games and most of my friends think that's a waste of money (and time I might add).

We all have our own idea of value.

   Agreed, you cannot do the Heroic quests by yourself I believe and there are quite a few of them, this is a grouping/solo game, even my antisocial self has been grouping alot and enjoying it!  One thing to keep in mind for the op is that this is not a stagnent game, this game will grow and expand as they have the res to do so.  One think Sov you have to get cable man, no Bill Mahr, no hardball, no sports on espn, how did people live befor cable i have no idea

Originally posted by xLith

 

Thanks Souper for explaining to the uninformed how servers are kept online for "F2Pay" games. Nero, do you know how MMOs work? You do know it's not a single server in someone's basement running on a Netzero dial-up account right?

So, what do you think is involved in running a mmo 'server'?

How many players/subs per 'server' (or cluster)? 10K? 20K? Times $15 per month, that's $150.000 - $300.000 per month(!) you can keep some real nice hardware running and pumping data over the net for less then 1/10 th of that.

But if you still think it's expensive, try to figure out the ratio between 'operational costs' and 'revenue from subscription' for a P2P game like WoW.

Originally posted by xion12121

          The game is decent as a free to play type game. But it is not an mmo its more of a single player RPG with some chat thrown in. Who is actually willing (Be honest) to pay $15 dollars  a month for a game not worth one penny???

Apparently there are a lot of people willing to pay for it.  For me, I am not intrested in playing in a Star Wars universe so count me as one not willing to play.

I wish the players of SW:TOR a lot of luck, I wonder how long before someone else offers Lucas Arts enough money for a new game that they need to kill this one.  From what I read, almost 25% of every dollar recieved will go to Lucas Arts.

Originally posted by eddieg50

 

   Agreed, you cannot do the Heroic quests by yourself I believe and there are quite a few of them, this is a grouping/solo game, even my antisocial self has been grouping alot and enjoying it!  One thing to keep in mind for the op is that this is not a stagnent game, this game will grow and expand as they have the res to do so.  One think Sov you have to get cable man, no Bill Mahr, no hardball, no sports on espn, how did people live befor cable i have no idea

lol, very true, I wasn't able to see Game of Thrones which looked fun. Also I grew up in the years when cable didn't exist (as well as remote controls, ATM's and the interwebz) so I'm used to a world where cable wasn't available to the masses. I just call that "childhood". ; )

More on topic, I am in game now and I am seeing all sorts of "lfg" for various things. They fly by the chat all the time.

I get that people are a bit pissed that there aren't hundreds vs hundreds battles and I get that splitting up the playerbase into instnaces here and there feels a bit like segregating the population. Nothing to be done about that.

But as for grouping, it's going on right now. So people can either vote to not play the game (always a choice) get into the game and group up as it presents itself or sit on the side lines and complain that it's not how they want it to be.

As another indicated there is no Dungeon Finder tool (which for my taste is a good thing) and because of that one has to talk to people to get into a group.

Which seems to me to fall exactly into what an mmo is supposed to be when it comes to grouping: "Talking to people".

Originally posted by dirtyd77

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by Bama1267

Originally posted by xion12121

          But it is not an mmo its more of a single player RPG with some chat thrown in.

If you do't like it, fine . But just because you are playing it solo when it can be played with people doesnt make it any less of an MMO. That statement was ludicrous at best.

i think most of the people will play it solo. And even those who don't, most of their /played IS solo.

Majority wins. TOR is not actually a  MMO, it's a MMO only on papers.

I am sorry but this quote is silly!  By your logic every game classified as an MMO is not actually an MMO every single one!   If I am wrong please let me know what game is an MMO?

Mortal Online. I was a blacksmith, my prices were constantly modified by the economy. Economy is made by ALL people, warriors demand and so on down the pyramid. So i was constantly interacting with "the whole community".

MMO is that awesome sense of awareness of the community as a whole.

Same for EVE, especially for the politics.

Originally posted by solarine

Originally posted by Gylfi

 

You pay monthly for a single player game w/ co-op.

I think it's a swindle, a thievery scam.

How odd. Somebody must have innovated big-time in single player game design. Otherwise in a single player game, how would we have:

• Constant trading. 
• Constantly groups forming for open world heroic zones.
• Frequently groups forming for world bosses.
• Frequently groups forming for open world PVP.
• Farming resources and competing with other players for them / or sharing them.
• RP get-togethers with lots of players.

If what you say is true and SWTOR is a single player game, Bioware are the kings of innovation for pulling this off! :)

groups and groups and groups.

Humbug! Neverwinter nights had groups too, it had a lobby, it even had trade. How come you don't call that an MMO?

Occasional and rare groups do not make an MMO, especially if you USE those groups just as damage bots. You don't talk to them, you don't care to do it, you treat em as bots.

The problem is that the world is not dynamic, all the content, heroic crap and all, is there and will never differ, it keeps respawning, players NEVER matter so you never interact with all the people.

Originally posted by Kaocan

Anyone who says SW:TOR is a single player game is either not playing it or such a horrible person that nobody will let them team with them. Oh wait, or they are so used to the LFD tool that they actually forgot how to walk out into the game world and find the area they need to group up at, maybe thats it!! Yeah, you do actually have to walk to the group content, and if you dont, well then you are going to be playing a single player game. 

 

Oh, and yeah, I'll be paying $15 a month here, along with my $15 to WoW (I fell for the gimic of giving them a year to get D3 - yeah, yeah, I know it was just a marketting gimic to make sure thier sub totals were padded sufficiantly for this next year, but I have been waiting for D3 FOREVER). I also have a lifetime with LoTRO, a lifetime with Rome Rising, and pay to support Xsyon's development in the hopes it actually gets someplace. Oh yeah I almost forgot, I'll be dumping cash on Lineage Eternal too when it comes out in 2012 or 2013. 

So my friend who plays SWTOR is a "horrible person" for having solo'd the game so far (currently playing a smuggler in the lvl 30's)?  Funny, he seems to be enjoying himself, I thought that was the point of a game.  I'm glad I learned here on MMORPG.com that it makes you a "horrible person" to not play the game the way someone else does.  The game can be largely solo'd, I have evidence enough of that, and that's enough for me, but the way people cast these ridiculous judgements is sad.

By the way, before this post I had told him that someone on this forum said you pretty much have to group after the first planet.  His response was "They must suck at video games".

I figure it's all about how you want to play the game, it doesn't say what kind of person you are.

PS: He's never used a LFD system before.