Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok comparing a phone to a game is an analogy that breaks down quickly when you consider the time and effort required to implement those systems.

A phone is a much simpler system than an mmo.

How do you know? Are you a game, and smartphone developer now?

TOR has been indecelopment for 5 years. It doesn't take 5 years to design a phone. Adding 4g to a phone is simply a matter of a new radio, a new CPU, and some new basement software.

Do you know anything about networking? I'm not a network dev, or pro - But i did do research several years ago while 3G was still the standard, as i understood it, there were years of development, research, hard work, and EVEN politics that went into creating the 4G network (Something to do with civil information gaps, and caps imposed by radio freq waves per the local authorities.)

Adding features to an mmo is a much more complicated and costly procedure.

Thats crap dude.. and a horrid point.. TOR has the largest development budget of ANY MMORPG AAA or indie, they spent GOD knows how much into voice acting - Thats Akin to spending millions on the most unique amazing paint job ever found on a car.. and then rationalizing NOT putting tires on the car becuase it was "Too costily".

There is no MMO out there that has every feature of every other mmo. There is no MMO out there that doesn't add features after launch.

WoW, and Rift among ALLOT of others had the standard features of the respective MMORPG Generation, and they were not budgeted nor backed by such a powerful company - Blizzard in 2000 (Around the time of the WoW Dev Splash), was not the company it was today, it was doing -decent- but it was not this powerful tycoon, but they still managed, and lets face it - before RIFT who heard of Trion? TOR has BIO EFFING WARE Deving it!

A cell phone, from a hardware view, never gets update without making a whole new phone. You aren't going to buy a 3G cell phone that magically becomes 4g with a software patch, but ALL MMOs are update in this way. They all add features over time.

You missed the point, you don't buy a product that doesn't have industry standard features, you are playing on semantics - Again - Thats like "Hey buy this phone, no it's not 3G or 4G - It's 2G, but still buy it for the FULL price of a 4G phone, and sometime in the next year we will add the features you coulda had if you just bought a 4G phone" -- Are you delusional?

If you expect every mmo to have all of the features you want from it's predecessors at launch, then you will never be satisfied. Things like housing are really not that common in the themepark genre and I would argue that SWTOR goes farther in this regard than most other themeparks with the ships.

The consumer has a right to expect -STANDARD- features from a multi-million dollar game running off a multi-billion dollar IP from a multi-billion dollar company.. your mind set is why the genre is floundering, and why the market is stagnant - You need to stop making excuses for these companies, they run off with our money while never fullfilling crap promises, this is the only market in the world that gets away with this crap, any other service, or product provided would be bankrupt under similar practices.

If every mmo that comes out has every previous feature of an mmo, you might as well double the dev time of these games. Sick of waiting 5 years? Try ten. The amount of various features in these games is huge.

It doesn't take them 5 years to dev it - its all apart of the marketing model, trust me i've been apart of gaming for a very long time - If they can push out AAA titles nearily every year for the same franchise, they are choosing to take this long - It's all apart of market control.

They have to pick and choose what goes in at launch. If they leave out something you need to enjoy the game, then your choice is simple, don't play it or wait for it to be added. Every game comes out missing features that somebody wants, he'll there's lots of thing LS I want in tor and some of them are even in the OP, but there are plenty of games that have these features already developed for you, go play them.

Says who? Who says they have to pick and choose? This makes no sense.

See above

Originally posted by Divion

I'm not going to debate whether or not The Old republic is, or is not a" WoW  Clone".

 

I will say, it does closely follow the formula made popular by WoW targeting the casual/theme park market – What the means to each individual is subjective, and not irrelevant to this topic.

 

On that basis – There are what I consider to be –standardized- features as part of that formula (As seen with RIFT, and other MMORPGS).

 

With the core features of such a formula present (Smooth combat system, simplified mechanics, casual progression pace, theme park style linear play).

 

There are SEVERAL missing features I find very frustrating –

A few things I’ve noticed:

1. No Guild support, or progression – No Guild Banks, or Guild Quests, nothing that I can see that supports the incentive to join a Guild other than to expedite group creation, or for social aspects, and RP – This is a big letdown – Guild Incentives I think are important to creating a social atmosphere outside the usual gear grinding, and raid nights.
2. No Ultra-Graphics/HD/AA – The graphics are very sub-par to industry standards, even so for this style of gaming, RIFT which is already over a half year old presents much stronger graphical engines, and capabilities – We are about to be in 2012 – Why am I playing a game with graphical qualities to rival the original Knights of the Old Republic circa~2003?
3.  LFG Support – This one is tricky, while I think that group match makers did kill a large obligation to be civil, and social – I also think that TOR lacks ANY significant form of group support – No I don’t want cross-realm LFG match making, as that produces a higher roll chance for trolls, and ninjas – But something to expedite the process would be more then favorable.
4. Public  Events – Now I’m not end game, and still have not scratched all the game has to offer – but I’ve yet to see much to indicate there are Public Events / Quests -  This is a feature I enjoyed in WAR, and loved in RIFT – Why the regression? If a feature proves to be favorable en mass, why omit  it?
5. Poor RP Support – Aside from vanity items, there is no support for a play style that was touted prior to launch as being supported, there is very little interactive environmental objects, and the emotes are lack-luster –
6. Player Housing – I don’t know why developers keep looking past this.. I think this is one of t he most sought, and neglected feature there is – and no, having the same starship as everyone else does not fulfill this desire.

Did I miss anything? What features do you think are missing?

well those things and a lot other things that have been "missed" we're missed cause they need to like make a new update that u will have to pay to get so more money theyr way ... p2p games tend to do this to make more money ... and then say oo look we did an expansion ... pay 10-50$ more and u'll have it haha .. all for our customers lol (oh well theyr wallets) ... u can go play something else or like a moron(been like this 2 till i realised that its not worth to p2p for any mmo and games nowadays are not made to be fun anymore just some cash cows(not all but a lot of them) and WOW is crap only stupid ppl think its good,just my opinion on it) pay for the "expansion" to get the "missed by mistake" content lol

Originally posted by Malasorte

Originally posted by Divion

I'm not going to debate whether or not The Old republic is, or is not a" WoW  Clone".

 

I will say, it does closely follow the formula made popular by WoW targeting the casual/theme park market – What the means to each individual is subjective, and not irrelevant to this topic.

 

On that basis – There are what I consider to be –standardized- features as part of that formula (As seen with RIFT, and other MMORPGS).

 

With the core features of such a formula present (Smooth combat system, simplified mechanics, casual progression pace, theme park style linear play).

 

There are SEVERAL missing features I find very frustrating –

A few things I’ve noticed:

1. No Guild support, or progression – No Guild Banks, or Guild Quests, nothing that I can see that supports the incentive to join a Guild other than to expedite group creation, or for social aspects, and RP – This is a big letdown – Guild Incentives I think are important to creating a social atmosphere outside the usual gear grinding, and raid nights.
2. No Ultra-Graphics/HD/AA – The graphics are very sub-par to industry standards, even so for this style of gaming, RIFT which is already over a half year old presents much stronger graphical engines, and capabilities – We are about to be in 2012 – Why am I playing a game with graphical qualities to rival the original Knights of the Old Republic circa~2003?
3.  LFG Support – This one is tricky, while I think that group match makers did kill a large obligation to be civil, and social – I also think that TOR lacks ANY significant form of group support – No I don’t want cross-realm LFG match making, as that produces a higher roll chance for trolls, and ninjas – But something to expedite the process would be more then favorable.
4. Public  Events – Now I’m not end game, and still have not scratched all the game has to offer – but I’ve yet to see much to indicate there are Public Events / Quests -  This is a feature I enjoyed in WAR, and loved in RIFT – Why the regression? If a feature proves to be favorable en mass, why omit  it?
5. Poor RP Support – Aside from vanity items, there is no support for a play style that was touted prior to launch as being supported, there is very little interactive environmental objects, and the emotes are lack-luster –
6. Player Housing – I don’t know why developers keep looking past this.. I think this is one of t he most sought, and neglected feature there is – and no, having the same starship as everyone else does not fulfill this desire.

Did I miss anything? What features do you think are missing?

well those things and a lot other things that have been "missed" we're missed cause they need to like make a new update that u will have to pay to get so more money theyr way ... p2p games tend to do this to make more money ... and then say oo look we did an expansion ... pay 10-50$ more and u'll have it haha .. all for our customers lol (oh well theyr wallets) ... u can go play something else or like a moron(been like this 2 till i realised that its not worth to p2p for any mmo and games nowadays are not made to be fun anymore just some cash cows(not all but a lot of them) and WOW is crap only stupid ppl think its good,just my opinion on it) pay for the "expansion" to get the "missed by mistake" content lol

Thats pretty much what im thinking..

They choose to avoid adding these features to string you along..

WoW pulled the same shit..

I remember before WoW launched they promised heroic classes, esp Death Knights..

5 Years after launch we finally got it...

DIRTY!

Anyways back on subject --

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Originally posted by Divion

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Originally posted by Mellkor
 

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Originally posted by pharazonic

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Originally posted by Laughing-man
They're working on the UI
Good to hear. Hopefully they can have the tweaks out soon enough.
No Mods is a design choice, a few games have gone that route, FFXI for one, it was very successful without them.  It makes comeptative gaming on the level and it also takes away a "need" to have the best mods to play the game for you, it takes away from them having you play their game the way they intended it to be played.  Is that so wrong?
Yes and no. Personally, I don't buy the "mods" encourage lazy gaming; they simply push gaming to another level. I feel this sentiment is one that is propagated by those too lazy or unknowledgeable to install and use mods.
I will concede that some mods can make playing easier. However, those mods are few when you compare it to the numerous mods that have been made that are sheer genius in their design and functionality.
Modders also add a lot to the game because often their technical know-how is matched by their knowledge of the game and thus they become community helpers in way.  They're also highly creative and developers often take notes from them (they should if they don't).
It also frees up up a precious resource, time, for the deveoper in some cases when the modder can provide the community what the developer typically doesn't have the time to do (Bag Sorter for instance).  
Macros?   Yeah I can see the issue, not sure whats up with that.
Part of the UI fix perhaps?

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Name some mods.
 

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Social Mods?
RP Mods? - I find those to be a much needed asset as most games neglect the RP community with support - They don't directily affect gameplay.
Wardrobe mods?
Aesthetical mods? Just allow a person to personalize their UI - That doesn't affect game play either.
Combat text? UI improves, and streamlining ? -- Chat mods -- Trading mods, Mail Mods --
Then finally Combat related mods - which is 1 of many areas of mods, but the only one that really can directily affect game play advantages.
Allot of these are creative, and before you know it - they are being offered in the game's expansion as a standard alternative -
 

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My mistake i should of elaborated more.

Name some "mods" you thought greatly enhanced your gaming experience among several games.

Whats the point of my question you may ask?
I believe mods are the exception to the rule when it comes to mmorpgs, Most don't have them. The most extensive and popular one i can think of is World of Warcraft.

If you are really passionate about getting "mod" support in swtor we should look at how they are implemented among a wide variety of games.. Because a wow style implementation may not fit well for swtor.

If i were to support it in swtor, I would say have the mods be submitted for quality control against engine specs and IP conventions.

That way you would not have stupid, Useless or game breaking mods in the public domain.

Ok insult me and call me names. That makes your point.

As I posted the typos are from typing on my phone, sorry about that.

As for my profession, I am an IT professional working in networking. I don't write software for a living but I do have programmin knowledge in Java, Visual Basic, and various web scripting languages. Programming is more of a hobby for me.

You are very hostile and defensive

Edit..Oops, deleted most of my post due to typing on the phone. What I was going to end iwth was that I am not attacking you personally, i see many holes in your analogy.

If you are truly studying game development in college, then you should know how it works. There is only so much that a company can fit into a game before launch. Everything takes time and resources, and even the company with the most resources is still limited in what they can develop. 

There is a deadline set by the guys with the money bags. There is a limit on how many employees they can hire and commit to a project. Everything they do has to fit within a certain budget and timeframe.  

I look at it this way:

Both Rift and SWTOR launched missing key things that should be in any MMO.

SWTOR launched without some missing features, many of which are being worked on as we speak.  Most of these are easy to add in after the fact

Rift launched without soul.  A world thats bland and generic with the worst presentation of lore/story/quests seen in, well pretty much the genre's history.  

I *personally* would take SWTORs issue in a heartbeat over rift's issues, but other peoples mileage may vary.

Now, Bioware has some fixin to do.  They say they have enough staff to work on stuff like this as well as content at the same time.  they have 3 months to back it up.

Omg not this same crap again...

There is no reason all those features should be there at launch. None.

When you make a game, you set a feature and content list you want to have, this list is long, very long but you can do only as much as you resources allow you thus you have to prioritize this list.

BioWare decided to fully focus on core - their own content, and all other features will come later. They are just convenience.

Thanks to BioWare for for this refreshing and rational approach to software development.

Also, the OPs list is almost entirely not MMO standard features, and half of them werent in Rift at launch

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Originally posted by Divion

your mind set is why the genre is floundering, and why the market is stagnant - You need to stop making excuses for these companies, they run off with our money while never fullfilling crap promises, this is the only market in the world that gets away with this crap, any other service, or product provided would be bankrupt under similar practices.

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Actually not, it is your mindset that is responsible for "stagnant market".

It is you and developers focusing on people like you that holds back the innovation because they spent most of their resources on copying other games features instead of delivering their own niche.

So yeah, you don't like TOR without all those missing features? No problem, you can go play some other game that just copied everything from other games but then do not be surprised it also feel like all other games.

There will be some people though, and I assume it will be quite a some, that enjoy SWTOR for what it is, or actually isn't. And that will be perfectly fine as it is exactly what BioWare tried to achieve.

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Originally posted by dubyahite

Adding 4g to a phone is simply a matter of a new radio, a new CPU, and some new baseband software.

Adding features to an mmo is a much more complicated and costly procedure. Every developer has a design focus when creating a game.

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Your entire post is perfectly spot on.

The difference for phones and other manufactured products is that older technology, or just due volumes, becomes cheaper over time to implement thus you can maintain it within to new models at very low costs.

This does not work for software development though.

Despite the feature is being 7 years old and common place in many games, coding Guild Banks in 2011 takes as much time as coding Guild Banks in 2004. Guild Banks also won't become cheaper to develop because they are commonly implemented by other developers.

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Originally posted by dubyahite

They have to pick an choose what features because develolment takes time and money, even for Bioware. Thu decide the core features thy want and go from there. Thy have a finite amount of time and money to accomplish their goals. They have to launch the game at some point and they can't create everything you want. Again, this would extend development time.

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You have to make a pick and categorize what you want to implement into:

1) Must have
2) Should have
3) Could have
4) Won't have

All features can't be Must-have, you have to prioritize it somehow and BioWare decided to prioritize what they want to deliver rather than what others deliver.

None of those items on the list are standard for an MMO launch.

When was an mmo ever complete . Thats the beauty they add features as they go along .

Ever heard of patches OP ?

Originally posted by veggie_eater

Originally posted by OkhamsRazor

When was an mmo ever complete . Thats the beauty they add features as they go along .

Ever heard of patches OP ?

You are wrong! MMO's are born complete and they GROW over the time.

But looks like your swtor baby was born with missing legs. 

No they are born smooth and polished at best and relativly bug free with a decent amount of content .

Also heres the definition of complete because you don't seem to know what it means .

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complete 

Ss Mas

Housing in a space scifi mmo where you travel to other planets to fight and quest....

Only thing that would make sense on this is interior upgrages to your ships interior...Dancing aline girls holograms. Floating training blaster balls. Those little mouse droids from the death star things of that nature could be cool, but again it would be a rather limited thing do in this game...

Lfg interface. I remember when wow got this...and the day it came out the nuked the lfg channel in chat that many people complained over...

One of the things I wish they had is autopath to target...Ie open your map click a spot on the map and your character will auto path the fastest rout to the target, However all those heroic zones may make this rather tricky..

Originally posted by dubyahite
One thing I hate is comparing a week old game to a 7 year old game.

Yeah WoW has guild progression, but how long did it take them to get it? 5 years?

I won't deny that SWTOR is missing some basic functions that I want, but these games are NEVER complete at launch. It is insane to expect them to have all of the features that other games took years to implement or compare the game to a product that has existed for a decade.

The updates will come, just chill out and either play it now or wait and see what happens.

Yes, and it's been pointed out that Blizzard should have had a more robust guild system in place much earlier on. Kind of funny that you'd point to a game that's been criticized for not having such a thing earlier on in order to justify a much newer game not having it at launch. As though it suddenly makes it "okay". It doesn't make it "okay". It means that Bioware hasn't learned from Blizzard (and other devs) and made the same mistake/oversight they did.

I love it when people take something considered a negative for one game, and use to justify a similar negative in another game. What has been generally considered a liability for WoW is conveniently spun as a defense to support TOR. Natch.

Incidentally, if you do some research into MMO design and theory - there are myriad books and resources on it - you'll find that strong social tools - including a robust guild system - are considered among the most important things to have in a MMO as early on as possible. 

But beside that...

What of other MMOs? WoW certainly isn't the only MMO on the market, and there are others that launched with more robust guild systems right out of the gate.

But I know... You'd rather dismiss and ignore those, 'cause they don't help you in your defense of TOR. Right?

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Yes, and it's been pointed out that Blizzard should have had a more robust guild system in place much earlier on. Kind of funny that you'd point to a game that's been criticized for not having such a thing earlier on in order to justify a much newer game not having it at launch. As though it suddenly makes it "okay".

I love it when people take something considered a negative for one game, and use to justify a similar negative in another game. What has been generally considered a liability for WoW is conveniently spun as a defense to support TOR. Natch.

But beside that...

What of other MMOs? WoW certainly isn't the only MMO on the market, and there are others that launched with more robust guild systems right out of the gate.

But I know... You'd rather dismiss and ignore those, 'cause they don't help you in your defense of TOR. Right?

 

So wait there's a difference in using something such as this to tear a game down?

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Yes, and it's been pointed out that Blizzard should have had a more robust guild system in place much earlier on. Kind of funny that you'd point to a game that's been criticized for not having such a thing earlier on in order to justify a much newer game not having it at launch. As though it suddenly makes it "okay".

I love it when people take something considered a negative for one game, and use to justify a similar negative in another game. What has been generally considered a liability for WoW is conveniently spun as a defense to support TOR. Natch.

But beside that...

What of other MMOs? WoW certainly isn't the only MMO on the market, and there are others that launched with more robust guild systems right out of the gate.

But I know... You'd rather dismiss and ignore those, 'cause they don't help you in your defense of TOR. Right?

 

So wait there's a difference in using something such as this to tear a game down?

Yes, because criticism is, you know, criticism.

While using the "oh but look popular game X also had this problem" is just a red herring argument, not a counter.

If you find this is not a "problem" for the game being criticized, tell us why, and we can have a discussion about it. But don't try to dismiss the problem because other games also had it.

Next you will try to use the argument to tell me that hacking in Darkfall is fine, because Diablo2 had hackers and look how well received Diablo2 was.