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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Should World Boss mobs be killable by 10/25?

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  pbowman

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/31/07
Posts: 33

 
OP  12/27/11 12:52:42 PM#1

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

12/27/11 1:12:41 PM#2
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

 

No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.
  Sector13

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 633

12/27/11 1:14:00 PM#3

Hogger, greatest world boss ever. lol

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/27/11 1:17:40 PM#4
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

God forbid a WoW player has to group with more than 24 other players to achieve a high end gameplay goal.

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2324

12/27/11 1:26:30 PM#5

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12141

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/27/11 1:35:30 PM#6
Originally posted by Torik

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/27/11 1:43:18 PM#7
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Torik

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

OMG I agree with both Torik and Loko at once.

  drago6817

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/27/11
Posts: 18

12/27/11 1:50:51 PM#8
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

 

No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.

 

 

This is a major problem in MMo's today imho, that they are designed as games first with these sorts of assumptions in place instead of as worlds.

 

I think deathwing should wipe you no matter how many friends you bring. Big scary dragons who destroyed half the world =/= loot slot machine.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/27/11 1:55:25 PM#9

The problem with massive world bosses is that once you have a hundred people on screen at once, you start loosing players  with lower-end machines or cause the server hamsters to have heart attacks.

I've always enjoyed wandering across random out-of-level encounters and sizing up if I want to tackle them or answer a zone-wide alarm or world event.  However, I generally don't enjoy world bosses because it's sheer chaos and brings me into contact with all the powergamers, exploiters and hard-core rare-seekers who I generally try to avoid.

But in principle, I've always felt that a game should always have bosses that have never been defeated that sit there as mountains to climb.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/27/11 2:02:23 PM#10
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Torik

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

OMG I agree with both Torik and Loko at once.

They already have that though.  Faction bosses work exactly like that.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/27/11 2:09:53 PM#11

No particular reason bosses need to even require 10 players.

The epicness of a fight doesn't come from massing a bunch of players, it comes from the presentation of the fight itself.

You need 4-6 players to get the feeling of team gameplay.  Additional players beyond that doesn't contribute much to the sensation of being part of a team, but definitely does increase the amount of hassle and tedium, and dilutes my personal contribution to the point of being pretty meaningless.

While I enjoy large-scale balanced-team PVP (Planetside), I really wouldn't mind if I never raided again in PVE-focused games (and I only play MMORPGs for PVE.)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/27/11 2:13:35 PM#12
Originally posted by Axehilt

No particular reason bosses need to even require 10 players.

The epicness of a fight doesn't come from massing a bunch of players, it comes from the presentation of the fight itself.

You need 4-6 players to get the feeling of team gameplay.  Additional players beyond that doesn't contribute much to the sensation of being part of a team, but definitely does increase the amount of hassle and tedium, and dilutes my personal contribution to the point of being pretty meaningless.

While I enjoy large-scale balanced-team PVP (Planetside), I really wouldn't mind if I never raided again in PVE-focused games (and I only play MMORPGs for PVE.)

Yes we get it, mmos should be about you you you and how you did the work to save the world. With your 1337 skillz and evolution given twitch powers of awesome. You talk about stories in RPGs but all the raid content has fuck all to do with the Warcraft lore. Lets kill a giant world destroying dragon or powerful lich with 6 people. That makes sense.

  Vigiliance

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 209

12/27/11 3:27:34 PM#13
Originally posted by Torik

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

Agreed, and these small selective raids kill any form of server community there could be. People say they want server community but we just create little small "clics" called guilds and they are completely self sufficient, so why would they even venture away from them?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/27/11 6:56:33 PM#14
Originally posted by Cuathon

Yes we get it, mmos should be about you you you and how you did the work to save the world. With your 1337 skillz and evolution given twitch powers of awesome. You talk about stories in RPGs but all the raid content has fuck all to do with the Warcraft lore. Lets kill a giant world destroying dragon or powerful lich with 6 people. That makes sense.

Or spun the correct way: MMOs shouldn't be about how meaningless you are.

Sometimes when people watch a movie, say Lord of the Rings, they say "they should make a game out of this!"  When they say that, what they really want is to act out the heroics of Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, etc.  What they aren't saying is "I want to be the crappy nameless soldier who gets his ass kicked."

It's not terrible for a game to not be about heroics -- Skyrim manages alright -- but it's clearly a strongly desired form of entertainment to act out heroics.

Also I have no clue where your twitch skill comment came from. RPGs by definition aren't twitch heavy, but they should definitely be tactics heavy and reward skillful play.  Unless a game is a relaxation activity like FarmVille, it strongly needs to reward the player's presence -- to make their interactions meaningful.  Otherwise why not just watch a movie if the player's interactions aren't important?

Little confused on your random belligerance towards story too, given that most WOW raids actually have a lot to do with story and yet there's no reason (beyond your sense of entitlement, dictating what the genre should or shouldn't be) as to why it absolutely has to require more than 6 people to defeat these mobs.  Obviously people have long enjoyed solo games about defeating world-threatening bosses, so clearly virtually nobody shares your insistence that defeating a world-threatening boss should require 40+ players.

Remember: games are made to entertain people.  They don't care about fitting your arbitrary definition of what the genre should or shouldn't be.  They exist to entertain.

  Angier2758

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1060

12/27/11 7:56:20 PM#15
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

I don't know if you want to use DAoC as an example... I believe (it was awhile ago) that DAoC had a mechanic that the content became easier with more people(either dmg or chance to hit went up).   I know this because I was an animist and my job was to cheese this number by summoning lots of weak turrets....

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3481

12/27/11 8:56:28 PM#16

I like the part where a call went out and ppl from all levels came to defend or attack. Last time I experienced this was in Vanguard not long after its release. Some griffon mob that tended to roam high above several quest areas and sometimes came down to attack players or other mobs and when it was sighted or when some player was freaking out about it in chat. And some huge kind of viking looking giant.

I dont have specific requirements for how tough it should be to kill the mob though. Seems kind of arbitrary to me. I just like wandering bad ass mobs that you can gang up to.

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

12/27/11 9:30:56 PM#17
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

Well for instance in SWTOR after the 5th day of release there are guilds that have cleared End Game Hard mode Raids 5/5.

 

So considering how terribly dumbed down games are now i wouldn't expect to see a challenge again in mmo's for awhile, including world bosses.

 

Do i agree with you? Yes

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3733

RIP City of Heroes!

12/28/11 1:21:53 AM#18
Originally posted by Torik

The problem with these fights is not the requirement on the number of players but the fact that the fights are part of a raid grind.  They are meant to be repeated every week by a dedicated group of raiders and that sucks most of the 'epicness' out of them. 

If these fights were more casual affairs that only awarded achievements and/or titles they could require 100+ players.  Once a month someone on a server would try to organize a raid for those and people would come to the fight because it would be a rare social event.   They would be willing to put a lot of time and effort into it because it would be something special to remember.

If you make these fights regular repeatable events then the scale does not matter and it becomes the equivalent of a daily quest.  It's fun to do the first few tiems and then you just want to get it out of the way.  It's like having a Christmas parade every week.  After the first few, people will lose interest and mostly care about the traffic jams it causes.

 

Good points. 

How about instead of having a single T-1 endgame raid instance, you make ten T-1 endgame raid instance which you would normally run each instance once.   Now make each instance take some good amount of time to complete and when you finish all ten T-1 raids, you are geared up for the next raid level.

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

12/28/11 5:32:35 AM#19

I say pizz on those huge raid numbers.

 

Me and the gonna be ex wife raided for a couple of yrs in EQ(during time frame of PoP/GoD era like 04). Our guild had to have everyone online to take down stuff, and when folks didnt show for our 3 weekly raids, shit usually hit the fan sometime during the night.

 

Which it isnt like wiping in EQ didnt happen enough as it was. Some nights were just total wastes, not to mention all the lvling to make back some exp(although 96% rezzes sure did help).

 

IMO raiding should be for a person, and like 5 to 10 of their friends. When I say raid, I mean content that is going to take a few hrs to complete. When you get to the end, you guys get your just reward.

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

12/28/11 9:32:52 AM#20
Originally posted by drago6817
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by pbowman

Hello, 

  I was just wondering what people think about World Mobs, such as Lich King or Deathwing being killed by 10 or 25 people.  These mobs broke the world, their the biggest and baddest thing around.  Thrall and Varian and all the rest couldn't take em, yet 10/25 people can take em down.

I remember in DAOC, in some dragon runs or epic armor runs we had almost 100 people.  We didn't ask to see their gear level or achievements, we banded together and fought the epic mobs.  Sometimes we wiped, but it was fun.  Same with relic raids or defending our relic, a call went out and people of all levels came to defend or go on raid.  It was fun, at least to me it was.

Personally, I think that world mobs should take the cooperation of the server.  Put out a call to the server, let anyone and everyone come to fight the creature that is trying to take over the world. 

This goes for any MMO, not just WoW, I just used them as an example.

This is just my opinion.

Thanks.

 

No. Requiring 100 people are just bad design. 100 are hard to coordinate. Games have to design around players who have real lives.

 

 

This is a major problem in MMo's today imho, that they are designed as games first with these sorts of assumptions in place instead of as worlds.

 

I think deathwing should wipe you no matter how many friends you bring. Big scary dragons who destroyed half the world =/= loot slot machine.


mmorgG ... the G stands for "game". Of course they are game first. And the assumption is quite correct if you look at reality. It is just impossible to coordinate 100 people.

I think deathwing is just great where it is now. 3 difficulties and everyone has a chance to down it. I really dont want to play a game that i know 99.99999% of the time i am going to lose ... i.e. ... sunwell. Thank god blizz is better designers and know how players tick, instead of listening to extreme, minority opinions on websites.

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