I have seen the mmorpg genre change a lot over the years. This site should change it's name to MMO.com. The standard definition for this genre is no long limited to rpg style play alone. So what is SWTOR? It is an AAMMOG action adventure massively multiplayer online game. I put AA first because SWTOR seems to be first an action adventure game with the mmo part added. People compare SWTOR to WOW but I do not see that at all. Of all the mmos I have played the last few years it feels much more like DC Universe, AoC, or CoH/CoV then a game like WOW or EQ2. SWTOR is the ultimate themepark mmo and I don't use ultimate as a compliment.

I like SWTOR it is a rich online Star Wars adventure and I am sure I will play it for a few months. I have two toons in the high 20s and I am having a lot of fun. However, SWTOR does not seem like an open living world. I am disappointed there is no sandbox play at all, at least so far as I have experienced. Also no opportunity for the players to feel creative with their toons or play style. Is the game fun? Yup, but it feels a bit flat because of the extremely linear game play and lack of population interaction. The closest thing to an area where players hangout is the flashpoint area. There does not seem to be a need for guilds to much other then some people to chat with. Basically eveyone is on their own journey.

The game looks amazing and plays well on a lot of systems. The detail of the world is fun to look at but you can not interact with many world objects like you could in a game like SWG pre-nge. The story is great and I do get more immersed in the story and lore then in a game like WOW but the trade off is I am less connected to the game world and player base. LOTRO handled the themepark vs open world feel better them SWTOR. My avatar in SWTOR is just a vehicle to move around the game world to experience the story. My toons in WOW felt like little people living in Azaroth. I wonder if SWTOR will mature with more options for players to live in the world and not just play a game. SWTOR is a great game but for me is not an immersive persistant world. I have not been this torn about my feeling of an mmo since my first few days in Guild Wars.

MMORPGs have changed but for god sakes can't one developer give us a rich beautiful world like SWTOR with the freedom to be creative like SWG? I believe you can have thempark and sandbox in the same game LOTRO/EQ2 were steps in that direction but have a long way to go. Doesn't anyone else think a true sandbox high budget mmorpg can still make tons of money?  

Yeah, things have changed.

This site (MMORPG.com) named a single player video game the "Game of the Year" (Skyrim).

Originally posted by Keogh

Yeah, things have changed.

This site (MMORPG.com) named a single player video game the "Game of the Year" (Skyrim).

 

I love Skyrim wouldn't that make a great mmorpg?  SWTOR is a great game but not the persistant world many hoped for but I still get to kill sandpeople with my lightsaber.

Originally posted by eccoton

SWTOR is a great game but not the persistant world many hoped for but I still get to kill sandpeople with my lightsaber.

LMFAO. So true.

Its true, it lacks the flavors a world realy needs, its one of the few things I dont like about sw:tor its not game killing not at all but it does give some minus  points.

Seating..cant sit in any chair, chat bubbles, the cantina's all have gamble stations..why cant we use them  , little things but they do bring in alot of flavor into a world.

Mmorpgs now a days are nothing more than glorified single player games, with multiplayer rooms.

We have no problems paying 50-60 bucks, power gaming thru the content (lets face it, it's stupidly easy), then throwing the game in the closet.

Paying anything over 50-60 bucks though, that is something most of us will not do, because in the end - these modern day mmorpgs are nothing more than single player games.

No sandbox = no replay value.

Originally posted by BigCountry

Mmorpgs now a days are nothing more than glorified single player games, with multiplayer rooms.

 

We have no problems paying 50-60 bucks, power gaming thru the content (lets face it, it's stupidly easy), then throwing the game in the closet.

 

Paying anything over 50-60 bucks though, that is something most of us will not do, because in the end - these modern day mmorpgs are nothing more than single player games.

 

No sandbox = no replay value.

I have played UO, EVE even garbage like Darkfall and Earthrise and i fail to see this replay value. Sandbox MMOS have as much repetition as themepark..it all depends upon what kind of repetition you enjoy.

I don't share the same opinion. WoW did exactly the same when started. What makes a game enjoyable it's the comunity.

We still need to see how it develops but my best memories playing good MMO's where the people that I played with.

Thats what WoW and EQ has on a level. WoW diminishes greatly because of some players but still it's community was the bomb.

Many gamers went to TOR just run in a lvling rush. They don't enjoy it as they enjoy their first. Is like their first love, they go back to their starting game.

 They will left the game because of this or that, they will find somethign to complain as there is always something not like ones like.

If they enjoy TOR and have good friends in it they will stay. 

Many will go back to their original MMO, like WoW, not because the old MMO is better but because they still have fun with people they knew in a game they dominate. And that's a good reason to play any game. 

I can't say what the future of TOR will be but hope for the best.

Still good review on the game but Got to say that don't share same opinion.

Originally posted by Supersoups

Originally posted by BigCountry

Mmorpgs now a days are nothing more than glorified single player games, with multiplayer rooms.

 

We have no problems paying 50-60 bucks, power gaming thru the content (lets face it, it's stupidly easy), then throwing the game in the closet.

 

Paying anything over 50-60 bucks though, that is something most of us will not do, because in the end - these modern day mmorpgs are nothing more than single player games.

 

No sandbox = no replay value.

I have played UO, EVE even garbage like Darkfall and Earthrise and i fail to see this replay value. Sandbox MMOS have as much repetition as themepark..it all depends upon what kind of repetition you enjoy.

 I played EVE on and off for years and most recently for 2 years non-stop. Replayability in a sandbox, at least EVE, is almost entirely dependent on the game community and your involvement in it. That's why sandbox games can get by with giving the players less "content", because the players are far more involved in their own  "player created" content.

EDIT: I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion at hand, btw. Just makin conversation, :P

Originally posted by eccoton

 

The game looks amazing and plays well on a lot of systems. The detail of the world is fun to look at but you can not interact with many world objects like you could in a game like SWG pre-nge. The story is great and I do get more immersed in the story and lore then in a game like WOW but the trade off is I am less connected to the game world and player base. LOTRO handled the themepark vs open world feel better them SWTOR. My avatar in SWTOR is just a vehicle to move around the game world to experience the story. My toons in WOW felt like little people living in Azaroth. I wonder if SWTOR will mature with more options for players to live in the world and not just play a game. SWTOR is a great game but for me is not an immersive persistant world. I have not been this torn about my feeling of an mmo since my first few days in Guild Wars.

 

I'm having the complete opposite reasction and here's why......

I walk into an area and click on a NPC then at that moment I'm thrown into a converstaion with this person, they are no longer an NPC but a living person who has a job to do in that part of the world, I then have decisions to make why conversing and that takes the RP to another level for me, so I really am rather confused with this is a new genre AAMMO approach. For me this is the most RPG in any MMORPG I've ever played (Eq2 & LotRO being the next best) and that to me is much more engrossing than other MMO's. I am part of the world around me the people come alive as I travel my way around the world I get to speak to Empire foot soldiers, oocultists, slave rebels, mad scientists, crazy Sith Lords, devious apprentises all the while climbing the social ladder to greatness. I'm able to interact with many other players through Flashpoint, Heriocs, trading, PvP, social conversations so to me this is closest to a MMORPG that you can get. I'm not one who thinks RP comsists on sitting around chewing the fat while killing mobs or in a cantina reminising about past glories, I'm in the thick of it making my way to become a legend and thats thrilling to me. So I feel your OP is way of the mark I think you should really rethink all that you have said because you seem to have a rather different notion of what an RPG is.

Originally posted by Supersoups

I have played UO, EVE even garbage like Darkfall and Earthrise and i fail to see this replay value. Sandbox MMOS have as much repetition as themepark..it all depends upon what kind of repetition you enjoy.

You must be doing something terribly wrong then. The gameplay in EvE for example is based ENTIRELY on the community, hence "sandbox". The market, local economies, everything.

Did you ever join a large 0.0 corp in EvE, or did you stay in high sec the entire time? You should join a large corp in 0.0 who is in a decent alliance, holds some territory, etc.

EvE is basically 2 different games. One facet is high sec PvE (mining and mission grinding, which as we all know sucks! :D). The other facet is life out in 0.0 - which is probaly the best sandbox every created for it changes daily depending on what/who the players controlling it decide to do. :D

Originally posted by BigCountry

Originally posted by Supersoups

I have played UO, EVE even garbage like Darkfall and Earthrise and i fail to see this replay value. Sandbox MMOS have as much repetition as themepark..it all depends upon what kind of repetition you enjoy.

 

You must be doing something terribly wrong then. The gameplay in EvE for example is based ENTIRELY on the community, hence "sandbox". The market, local economies, everything.

Did you ever join a large 0.0 corp in EvE, or did you stay in high sec the entire time? You should join a large corp in 0.0 who is in a decent alliance, holds some territory, etc.

EvE is basically 2 different games. One facet is high sec PvE (mining and mission grinding, which as we all know sucks! :D). The other facet is life out in 0.0 - which is probaly the best sandbox every created for it changes daily depending on what/who the players controlling it decide to do. :D

Yeah usually when people don't agree with how you play games they are doing something teriibly wrong. All Sandbox games end up at PVP and gathering resources. With exception of Ryzom, there wasn't much PVP but i spent majority of game time crafting and gathering resources day after day. Was that a repetition? hell yes.

In EVE too majority of time was spent in making money just to blow it up all in PVP, rinse and repeat. I purposely stayed away from crafting because i enjoyed mining more.

So yeah what you call re playability is just doing same things over and over again like one does in themepark. The main point is that whather you are enjoying the grind or not.

Hence, i disagree with no sandbox = no replaybility comment.

Don't take this the wrong way, but why do you seek longevity in sandbox mmorpgs if your not willing to socally engage yourself with large groups of other players?

Trying to single play a sandbox mmorpg is pretty brutal, and I could totally see how if could seem "grindy" for you.

The reverse is opposite for games like SWTOR. You can single player it, and it should not seem grindly at all until you max your character. Then the wall/grind will set in, because there are no game mechanics in place beyond that (besides improving your "gear"). since you have ridden all the rides at the themepark etc.

Originally posted by BigCountry

Don't take this the wrong way, but why do you seek longevity in sandbox mmorpgs if your not willing to socally engage yourself with large groups of other players?

 

Trying to single play a sandbox mmorpg is pretty brutal, and I could totally see how if could seem "grindy" for you.

Gathering resources, crafting, PVP all the basically sums up majority of Sandbox are group activities. I couldn't have survived in EVE mining alone but that doesn't make the repetition any less tedious after a while. So saying that only sandbox MMOS offer replayability is wrong in my opinion because i find a lot of replayability in themepark MMOS too and msot of it i do in groups just like i did in Sandbox.

Originally posted by noxiel

I don't share the same opinion. WoW did exactly the same when started. What makes a game enjoyable it's the comunity.

We still need to see how it develops but my best memories playing good MMO's where the people that I played with.

Thats what WoW and EQ has on a level. WoW diminishes greatly because of some players but still it's community was the bomb.

Many gamers went to TOR just run in a lvling rush. They don't enjoy it as they enjoy their first. Is like their first love, they go back to their starting game.

 They will left the game because of this or that, they will find somethign to complain as there is always something not like ones like.

If they enjoy TOR and have good friends in it they will stay. 

Many will go back to their original MMO, like WoW, not because the old MMO is better but because they still have fun with people they knew in a game they dominate. And that's a good reason to play any game. 

I can't say what the future of TOR will be but hope for the best.

Still good review on the game but Got to say that don't share same opinion.

 

I have to agree with you. I can respect the OP's opinion but I don't feel the same way he does. WoW felt no different. In fact, it was probably less social for me. I didn't need to group or run things with others much at all until I had dungeons. In TOR so far I have had several groups for quests alone and folks seeing me and my little smuggler taking on a bit much and instantly grouping with me to give a hand. I have to say I have the complete opposite feeling really. Not sure if it is because I am on a RP server that many people came together about going to before launch or not. But so far the community has been great and we've been having a great time and adding each other to our friend's lists.

SWTOR has 1 million subs and rising, SWG peaked at 300 000...replayability value? Would you rather have 300 000 people pay 30-40$ to you and then sub for a year or  have over a million people pay 60-150$ overnight and most likely 15$/month for 3-4 months?

Big game studios are ran by investors, investors love short term profits as their slice of the cake is gained from that. There simply isn't enough short term profit in something that takes ages to develop and even longer to mature....thats why sandboxes will never become mainstream.

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by eccoton

 

The game looks amazing and plays well on a lot of systems. The detail of the world is fun to look at but you can not interact with many world objects like you could in a game like SWG pre-nge. The story is great and I do get more immersed in the story and lore then in a game like WOW but the trade off is I am less connected to the game world and player base. LOTRO handled the themepark vs open world feel better them SWTOR. My avatar in SWTOR is just a vehicle to move around the game world to experience the story. My toons in WOW felt like little people living in Azaroth. I wonder if SWTOR will mature with more options for players to live in the world and not just play a game. SWTOR is a great game but for me is not an immersive persistant world. I have not been this torn about my feeling of an mmo since my first few days in Guild Wars.

 

 

I'm having the complete opposite reasction and here's why......

 

I walk into an area and click on a NPC then at that moment I'm thrown into a converstaion with this person, they are no longer an NPC but a living person who has a job to do in that part of the world, I then have decisions to make why conversing and that takes the RP to another level for me, so I really am rather confused with this is a new genre AAMMO approach. For me this is the most RPG in any MMORPG I've ever played (Eq2 & LotRO being the next best) and that to me is much more engrossing than other MMO's. I am part of the world around me the people come alive as I travel my way around the world I get to speak to Empire foot soldiers, oocultists, slave rebels, mad scientists, crazy Sith Lords, devious apprentises all the while climbing the social ladder to greatness. I'm able to interact with many other players through Flashpoint, Heriocs, trading, PvP, social conversations so to me this is closest to a MMORPG that you can get. I'm not one who thinks RP comsists on sitting around chewing the fat while killing mobs or in a cantina reminising about past glories, I'm in the thick of it making my way to become a legend and thats thrilling to me. So I feel your OP is way of the mark I think you should really rethink all that you have said because you seem to have a rather different notion of what an RPG is.

Well said but I still disagree. Where I disagree on the rpg thing is that they define your character to much for you even to the point you hear a voice. That type of linear play for me does not allow rpg. Don't get me wrong I think it is a great game but it is to linear for a lot of older mmo players who are use to exporing more on their own terms.

Originally posted by eccoton

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by eccoton

 

The game looks amazing and plays well on a lot of systems. The detail of the world is fun to look at but you can not interact with many world objects like you could in a game like SWG pre-nge. The story is great and I do get more immersed in the story and lore then in a game like WOW but the trade off is I am less connected to the game world and player base. LOTRO handled the themepark vs open world feel better them SWTOR. My avatar in SWTOR is just a vehicle to move around the game world to experience the story. My toons in WOW felt like little people living in Azaroth. I wonder if SWTOR will mature with more options for players to live in the world and not just play a game. SWTOR is a great game but for me is not an immersive persistant world. I have not been this torn about my feeling of an mmo since my first few days in Guild Wars.

 

 

I'm having the complete opposite reasction and here's why......

 

I walk into an area and click on a NPC then at that moment I'm thrown into a converstaion with this person, they are no longer an NPC but a living person who has a job to do in that part of the world, I then have decisions to make why conversing and that takes the RP to another level for me, so I really am rather confused with this is a new genre AAMMO approach. For me this is the most RPG in any MMORPG I've ever played (Eq2 & LotRO being the next best) and that to me is much more engrossing than other MMO's. I am part of the world around me the people come alive as I travel my way around the world I get to speak to Empire foot soldiers, oocultists, slave rebels, mad scientists, crazy Sith Lords, devious apprentises all the while climbing the social ladder to greatness. I'm able to interact with many other players through Flashpoint, Heriocs, trading, PvP, social conversations so to me this is closest to a MMORPG that you can get. I'm not one who thinks RP comsists on sitting around chewing the fat while killing mobs or in a cantina reminising about past glories, I'm in the thick of it making my way to become a legend and thats thrilling to me. So I feel your OP is way of the mark I think you should really rethink all that you have said because you seem to have a rather different notion of what an RPG is.

Well said but I still disagree. Where I disagree on the rpg thing is that they define your character to much for you even to the point you hear a voice. That type of linear play for me does not allow rpg. Don't get me wrong I think it is a great game but it is to linear for a lot of older mmo players who are use to exporing more on their own terms.

This is where I get really confused with "vets" and older MMO's...

 EQ - you were rooted to the spot for hours upon hours in a group levelling just to be able to get to the next zone or dungeon.

UO - You had to click click click to level every skill and for what to do stuff that needed high skills. 

Daoc - You level up to participate in PvP and the leveling process was geared to get you there.

SWG - You went out into the field, stood in a cantina or hospital spamming skills so you could level up to well be levelled up as the games actual content was non existent, only player lead events actually gave you things to do unless you like decorating, harvesting and trading.

All MMO's restrict you and put you on a path even in sandbox's you level skills to go to places where high level skills are needed, its a means to an end and in the older games that was all there was. It was the feeling of a vast world with nothing in it that gave you a sense of freedom but it was just an ilusion. The thing that kept people there was community and likemindedness but as soon as a game came along (actaully 2 games) with interesting stuff to do with quests, stories and lore to absorb people bolted out of the older games like rats leaving a sinking ship.