Originally posted by Destai

Originally posted by WardTheGreat

Yes, because running out of mana really makes things complex.

No, but having resources to manage does.

It doesn't make things complex, it just adds boredom. Drinking that water after every fight wasn't fun. That' why I switched from mage to lock in WoW:TBC.

When you have an extremely large pool of energy (typical of most MMOs), and it's only the extremely long fights that you really have to worry about your energy, is it really dumbing down the game by just removing the resource completely?

you clearly didn't play GW1. energy management is GW1 was a big deal as it was a fast-renewing but highly contestable resource (as in, full regenation in seconds, not minutes), and there were many skills to both buff and debuff the amount of energy available to players. energy denial was a big part of the GW1 mesmer for example.

energy is good because it prevents mindless spamming of abilities, and it makes combat more interesting than just deducting hitpoints from each other and using skills on cooldown refresh. intelligent use of abilities should be a feature of combat.

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Originally posted by Shroom_Mage

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Originally posted by Polarisation
I still think the complete removal (read: dumbing down) of resource (energy/mana) management - while initially fun - will dumb the gameplay down to a point where the people who enjoy the deep strategic complexity of GW1 PVP and other MMOs will get bored.
 
I worry that GW2 will be little more than an arcade game with persistence.

Complexity isn't always a good thing. I could design the most complex game ever, but more than likely nobody would want to play it. Fun is what's important here. Complexity be damned.

The only thing your complexity does is unnecessarily widen the skill gap between novice and experienced players by creating systems that are difficult to understand. In most games, mana is an obvious concept. In GW, it was confusing because it was so limiting. A player may be enticed by the idea of a death knight and makes a Warrior/Necromancer, only to learn that he is unable to manage his energy well enough to use nearly any of the necro skills. He has to resort to using a guide to even learn how to play. (If he tries PvP he very likely may literally not be able to play considering how easy his build probably is to shut down.) Getting better should come with practice and training, not following guides.

Energy in GW2 was completely redundant. Remember that skills can miss very easily. When you try to hit with a powerful attack and miss, you waste that skill and have to wait for it to recharge. If you hit your big skill every time it recharges, you're making yourself very predictable, which makes your skills very easy to avoid. It's a different game. Importing old systems without considering how they work in a new environment is one of the worst things you can do in game design.

A well-designed game is inspired, intuitive, and fun. Complexity (convolution) is usually bad. That's the reason they kept changing the thief mechanic. If it isn't obvious, it's too confusing.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
I agree whole heartedly. If you add in the like of truly defined roles and the soft grouping, it really seems to be headed that direction. I hope that it isn't.

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Oh no, we wouldn't want things to be easy for new players to understand. They might actually become... competent?!

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And I think complexity is overrated. The best games are not very complex, but have depth in other ways.

My favourite examples of this are Chess and Othello. Neither game is complex. Both games have limited move options, and the depth comes not from overly complex rulesets, but from the variety of options available to players within the simpler ruleset.

The most complex game is not necessarily the most difficult or deep game. I could design an incredibly complex game that has little depth (WoW before its several dumbings down is a good example. So many numbers, but only one or two ways are best.)

Complexity =/ depth.

Depth comes from having many solutions, and giving players a wide variety of options to counter one another's solutions and plans. Guild Wars 1 had many, many attacks and strategies and counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters. Having to manage energy is just one more thing to worry about. Shutting down players and manipulating energy was part of the game in Guild Wars 1. Just because it isn't something adding to the complexity of Guild Wars 2 does not mean it not be a deep game. It means they are focusing on other things. From the PvP videos I have seen, combat is going to be very deep, just not so complicated that beginners feel daunted by all the variables and don't want to jump in.

In my opinion, depth without unnecessary complications is a good thing. More people trying PvP, and more people trying new ideas, can only be a good thing for the inevitable metagame. It also means more people for me go toe-to-toe with.

Maybe they will implement some wall in my personal instance home on which I can mount all your heads.

Originally posted by Polarisation

When you have an extremely large pool of energy (typical of most MMOs), and it's only the extremely long fights that you really have to worry about your energy, is it really dumbing down the game by just removing the resource completely?

you clearly didn't play GW1. energy management is GW1 was a big deal as it was a fast-renewing but highly contestable resource (as in, full regenation in seconds, not minutes), and there were many skills to both buff and debuff the amount of energy available to players. energy denial was a big part of the GW1 mesmer for example.

 

energy is good because it prevents mindless spamming of abilities, and it makes combat more interesting than just deducting hitpoints from each other and using skills on cooldown refresh. intelligent use of abilities should be a feature of combat.

 

 

What you're not taking into account is that most of the energy management skills from GW1 were weaved in with skills that damaged/buffed, very few skills existed purely to give someone energy. For instance, one of the dervish's energy management skills being the buff that returns energy based on the amount of hits given while under the skill, once it goes away. But the only reason for that mechanic in the first place in the energy. If there is no energy, there is no need for that mechanic. 

The mechanic is the only thing giving itself context, it's there to be manipulated and thus there are skills to manipulate it, which makes it "part of the game." If there is no mechanic, the skills to play with it aren't needed and the focus is instead elsewhere. As already stated, you now have cooldowns and placement of your abilities and your character at any given moment on the battlefield to worry about. If you're just standing one place spamming skills, you are going to die, and very quickly.

Standing somewhere and spamming skills, even without mana, is not an option in GW2. When you say "intelligent use of abilities should be a feature of combat" you assume that Mana is the only way to make smart choices, and completely ignoring that there are other decisions that affect what skills you use, and when, in the middle of combat. Ironically, that last sentence proves that standing in one place spamming skills is exactly what you are used to doing...standing about skill spamming until you run out of mana and need to either pop a potion or sit and regen. Goodness, what would we ever do without that?

I honestly can't believe people are being so stubborn about this. Arguments keep being brought up that have been shot down time and again, but they are still held on to for dear life as if the sky would crumble should some development team dare to do something different. 

Originally posted by ngueva2

Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

I love that they decided to redo the animations so that the combat is even more fluid and actiony now

 I totally agree.  Combat should feel fluid like in one motion instead of being cut off in noticable segments.  This was a much needed update.

Exactly ... not that GW2 had any problems with fluidity of animations before but this tweak (pretty big imho) is what got me so  so excited again - back on the hype train baby!

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

 

Screw mana, you don't need it. You just think you do because that's what most games have had until now, but Anet doesn't want to make another game that's just like all the others. That's what SWTOR/Rift/WoW/99% of everything that came out in the last 10 years, is for.

THIS THIS THIS ^^^^^^!!!

Took the worlds right out of my mouth!

When I first played WAR I was dumbstruck by how mana-less combat system works perfectly and so much better than that stupid one-dimensional blue bar thing. Frankly, after WAR I was completely unable to go back to mana-based RPGs.

I was pretty disappointed when ANet first announced that they will use "energy" as a long-term resource and was exhilirated when they finally ditched it. That blue bar is just a useless throwback to the EQ days which actually adds nothing to the game.

Originally posted by Polarisation

energy is good because it prevents mindless spamming of abilities, and it makes combat more interesting than just deducting hitpoints from each other and using skills on cooldown refresh. intelligent use of abilities should be a feature of combat. 

If you use skills on cooldown refresh, you're doing it wrong. You're completely ignoring the fact that cooldowns (and combat system as a whole) are balanced around opportunity cost, not resources. In other words, the whole depth is still there, but instead of thinking how to keep your bar blue you have to think when to use your skills for greatest effect. That's not dumbing down, that's shift of focus to idea that's more intuitive.

Isn;t it lovely how some people defend system which is only temporary. ANet said that they would like some different resource instead of mana but they still want one. yet people attack one person b/c he said that there should be such resource to manage to deepen the stragetic aspect of a game. lol.

Originally posted by TwilightEdge

Isn;t it lovely how some people defend system which is only temporary. ANet said that they would like some different resource instead of mana but they still want one. yet people attack one person b/c he said that there should be such resource to manage to deepen the stragetic aspect of a game. lol.

No, the resource will be long term, the replacement of potions and not energy.

Originally posted by TwilightEdge

Isn;t it lovely how some people defend system which is only temporary. ANet said that they would like some different resource instead of mana but they still want one. yet people attack one person b/c he said that there should be such resource to manage to deepen the stragetic aspect of a game. lol.

It won't be short term, though. It won't be something you manage on combat basis - it will work more like a way to penalize poor playstyle in the long term, just like Death Penalty in GW1 or potions (or rather necessity to refill them) in previous iterations.

The last part of the read is what interested me. Combat animation blending and combat responsiveness is the extra layer you get in few games where you find the room to get better. Knowing when and why you use this and this skill as you learn the game is definitely what make some combat system more interesting and challenging than others. Also good blending animation is what make the game look good, so its a very good point.
 
MMo skills + fps control is one of the aspect that made me look at this game more closely. I'm still not sure how well tab targeting will work in all this, in some vids it seam to be player controlled, in other it seam client controlled, so i'm not sure how it will work and how much controls/option you'll have to tweak it. Hope you'll be able to choose, closest, weakest, assist, re-target last and option like those in the options.

The combat part was a great read. Sounds like they are making some smart decisions.

Thank you for sharing :)

Much love for ArenaNet

Originally posted by WardTheGreat

Originally posted by Polarisation

I still think the complete removal (read: dumbing down) of resource (energy/mana) management - while initially fun - will dumb the gameplay down to a point where the people who enjoy the deep strategic complexity of GW1 PVP and other MMOs will get bored.

 

I worry that GW2 will be little more than an arcade game with persistence.

Yes, because running out of mana really makes things complex.

 And fun!

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

...And I think complexity is overrated. The best games are not very complex, but have depth in other ways.

My favourite examples of this are Chess and Othello. Neither game is complex. Both games have limited move options, and the depth comes not from overly complex rulesets, but from the variety of options available to players within the simpler ruleset.

....

.

You could probably layer a fatigue system on top of chess and make it work in a way that didn't make it unnecessarily complex, as long as there was an 'interface upgrade' for it.  But like you say, it isn't needed.  Plenty of competitive ground on the chess board as it is normally used.  Now, if you were forced to keep track of the fatigue status of each piece on the board in your head...

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by WardTheGreat

Originally posted by Polarisation

..

I worry that GW2 will be little more than an arcade game with persistence.

Yes, because running out of mana really makes things complex.

And fun!

Finishing someone off with your wand when you were both out of E was kind of fun.  But yeah, let's just settle it with skills and positioning.

If they are working on achievement systems and refining class mechanics then they are getting towards the end of the developement cycle.

I hope nothing big comes up in early CB to derail progress.

*fingers crossed*