Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sanosukex

using his analogy think about this say at&t offers there new top of the line phone today with just your basic features but no wifi, no gps, no expandable memory, no way to change your wallpaper or ringtones aside from the preset ones BUT it has a 3d projector on it.. does this phone deserve mass praise cause of this one feature? or should  people be critical cause it ignored many basic features every phone over the past years have had..

What relevancy does this have to SWTOR? Is SWTOR the "new phone without basic features"? If you think so, then lol.

it IS.. and if you don't think so then thats a matter of opinion but you obviosuly haven't played many MMOs then

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Loekii

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Two raids, planet dedicated to end-game World PvP and soloing, and a pletera of heroic/nightmare level dungeons.

Have we seen a number of neutral reviews of those elements?

 

I am hearing good comments about Iluim (Pvp), but what about the other things you mention. 

Play the game yourself and find out...

 

Reviews are overrated

Maybe.  But you'll notice that when something really is good in the gaming industry, like Skyrim, for example, it gets rave reviews. The mmorpg industry produces some very piss poor games and folks who are avid fans - the kind that actually spend the time to come here and defend their game, for example, may not be the best sample to judge the game.

If you get even a few bad reviews of a game, from gamers who play mmorpgs and love the genre in general, then yes, something is definitely wrong. 

People need to rationalize why they like something.  It's like religion...it could be a very strange, goofy religion, and those who love it just love it - plain and simple.  It doesn't make it good.

A lot of folks are bashing SW: TOR - that says a lot.

Plenty to do end-game.  No worries.  As for the guys who are capped already, they're idiots who just wanted bragging rights for their e-peens.  Hope they have fun waiting for the rest of us.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loekii

Originally posted by VIIKING

More than WOW had when it first come out.

I would hope so, seeing how that was back in 2004, and the market has matured greatly since then.

Comparing a product in 2012, to a product in 2004 is just silly.    That is like saying that the cell phone that was just released, is better than a cell phone in 2004.  

We can't compare a new game to a seven year old one with any more validity than we can compare (new game 7 years ago) to (new game today).

Argument by analogies are always suspect to some degree, particularly when (as in this case), you can slant them in whatever direction you need to in order to fit your premise.

Actually we can compare a game that launched in 2004 to a game that launches in 2011 because both games are available for purchase.  The time an item is created is irrelevant, all that matters is what it offers.  SWTOR is competing with games that already exist, it doesn't get a pass just because it is new.  You don't release a phone today that has features from 20 years ago and then say well that other phone company had 20 years to work on their phone so it isn't fair that we judge this phone harshly, give them 20 years to catch up and it will be just as good.

The fact is people want the game to succeed so they defend it with nonsense.  When someone goes to a store or goes online to buy a new game they look for the one that has the features they want at the time of sale.  If game A has a feature and game B does not it doesn't matter how long it took game A to get the feature.  What matters is that game A has the feature in the first place.

People are too happy being spponfed half completed pieces of crap because they want to have something to fight for.  They invested their money into it so they must defend it, it is purely ego.  No one wants to be the one who bought the lemon, so they come up with excuses on why its great.  Then a few months down the line the admit they bought a lemon and try to pass it off as some kind of epiphany.

At launch swtor should have had every feature in game already that its customer base wanted.  They should have invested more time and/or money to get it done.  If they couldn't get it done in time for when they felt it needed to launch that is not an excuse.  They simply said "this game is good enough" and released it.

If people choose not to buy it or to not resub it is because they do not find the value in a purchase at this time.  Its not because they are a bunch of quitters or EZmode newbs, or whatever other nonsense i see floating around.  If you have to defend your game from criticism because you fear it will fail, then frankly your game sucks.  It isn't your job to defend a game.  The game company should be improving it as fast as possible to draw in the player base they are targetting.  If they fail to do this, it is their own fault.

The quality of a game is judged on how profittable it is.  Anything else is purely speculation and subjective opinion.  You can think you are some enlightened genius because you play a particular niche game, but seriously MMOs do not take "skill" they take time.  Taking 5 years to get to level 2 does not make a game hard, it makes it time consuming.  People like to pretend they are smart because they aren't playing with the popular kids.

Bottom line swtor is competing with wow and if they can't bring the same features to the party they can't expect to pull in the same numbers.  WoW is successful for a reason, you can hate on the "kids" who play it all you want, doesn't stop them from crushing their competition and having the most features.

I wish swtor the best, but they don't get a pass just because they are new and people have invested their hope into it.  They need to bust their asses and produce results that make money.  Time will tell.

Originally posted by sanosukex

using his analogy think about this say at&t offers there new top of the line phone today with just your basic features but no wifi, no gps, no expandable memory, no way to change your wallpaper or ringtones aside from the preset ones BUT it has a 3d projector on it.. does this phone deserve mass praise cause of this one feature? or should  people be critical cause it ignored many basic features every phone over the past years have had..

Do me a favor.  Sit down and list out all of the possible features you have ever seen or wanted to see in an MMO.  If you come up with less than two hundred or so, you aren't really trying.

Now start crossing out half of those features, knowing that you have neither infinite budget nor infinite time.  Try to build a game that has enough of a base to launch with.

Say you pick fifty or so things you want to emphasize.  You get a workable, launchable game--not perfect, but do-able within a set budget and time frame.

Now hand that list to your nearest buddy--and ask him what's missing.

That's essentially what this forum does.  No single game has ever, or will ever, launch with even a majority of the possible features, there have been too many MMOs and too many ideas tossed into the pool, and it gets worse with every passing year.  So this forum, instead, fishes for the negatives, what's missing, what can be critiqued.  And this forum attacks that problem...rigorously.

Be aware that your list is going to fail many, possibly even most, customers and that all of them will complain about something.

Be aware that like the past seven or eight years, no game that you launch will be considered a success.

What's you next proposed step?  You cannot have infinite budget or infinite time.  Give up?

Or accept the reality that your game cannot be for everyone and carry on?

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sanosukex

using his analogy think about this say at&t offers there new top of the line phone today with just your basic features but no wifi, no gps, no expandable memory, no way to change your wallpaper or ringtones aside from the preset ones BUT it has a 3d projector on it.. does this phone deserve mass praise cause of this one feature? or should  people be critical cause it ignored many basic features every phone over the past years have had..

What relevancy does this have to SWTOR? Is SWTOR the "new phone without basic features"? If you think so, then lol.

it IS.. and if you don't think so then thats a matter of opinion but you obviosuly haven't played many MMOs then

Check my profile. That's how many MMO's I have played. What basic feature does TOR not have that the devs have stated they are not working on for the next update?

Originally posted by Ravenmane

Plenty to do end-game.  No worries.  As for the guys who are capped already, they're idiots who just wanted bragging rights for their e-peens.  Hope they have fun waiting for the rest of us.

Oh I'm sure they don't mind waiting, "Plenty to do end-game" anyway.. :P

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by sanosukex

using his analogy think about this say at&t offers there new top of the line phone today with just your basic features but no wifi, no gps, no expandable memory, no way to change your wallpaper or ringtones aside from the preset ones BUT it has a 3d projector on it.. does this phone deserve mass praise cause of this one feature? or should  people be critical cause it ignored many basic features every phone over the past years have had..

Do me a favor.  Sit down and list out all of the possible features you have ever seen or wanted to see in an MMO.  If you come up with less than two hundred or so, you aren't really trying.

Now start crossing out half of those features, knowing that you have neither infinite budget nor infinite time.  Try to build a game that has enough of a base to launch with.

Say you pick fifty or so things you want to emphasize.  You get a workable, launchable game--not perfect, but do-able within a set budget and time frame.

Now hand that list to your nearest buddy--and ask him what's missing.

That's essentially what this forum does.  No single game has ever, or will ever, launch with even a majority of the possible features, there have been too many MMOs and too many ideas tossed into the pool, and it gets worse with every passing year.  So this forum, instead, fishes for the negatives, what's missing, what can be critiqued.  And this forum attacks that problem...rigorously.

Be aware that your list is going to fail many, possibly even most, customers and that all of them will complain about something.

Be aware that like the past seven or eight years, no game that you launch will be considered a success.

What's you next proposed step?  You cannot have infinite budget or infinite time.  Give up?

Or accept the reality that your game cannot be for everyone and carry on?

 

ill just respond with read Sepulcher's post right above yours pretty much sums up my entire point

Originally posted by stealthbr

Check my profile. That's how many MMO's I have played. What basic feature does TOR not have that the devs have stated they are not working on for the next update?

already been discussed many many times over, read the metacritic thread if you want examples also read Sepulcher's post couple above to see the point I'm trying to make cause he stated it perfectly

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sanosukex

using his analogy think about this say at&t offers there new top of the line phone today with just your basic features but no wifi, no gps, no expandable memory, no way to change your wallpaper or ringtones aside from the preset ones BUT it has a 3d projector on it.. does this phone deserve mass praise cause of this one feature? or should  people be critical cause it ignored many basic features every phone over the past years have had..

What relevancy does this have to SWTOR? Is SWTOR the "new phone without basic features"? If you think so, then lol.

it IS.. and if you don't think so then thats a matter of opinion but you obviosuly haven't played many MMOs then

Check my profile. That's how many MMO's I have played. What basic feature does TOR not have that the devs have stated they are not working on for the next update?

Yes of course, devs managed to miss so many features over multi-year development but they're all going to be in on the
"next update"... of course!

Dude, I take it that you like the game and want to defend it... but there's a point where fanboism ends and the drama/comedy starts...

Originally posted by sanosukex

already been discussed many many times over, read the metacritic thread if you want examples also read Sepulcher's post couple above to see the point I'm trying to make cause he stated it perfectly

Sepulcher's post has no specifics. I'm not going to search around the forums so that you can prove your point. Your argument, you should back it up with reasonable evidence or else your so called analogy holds no ground.

Endgame is role playing in an online community of a few hundred people. Everything else is a bonus.

Originally posted by sgel

Yes of course, devs managed to miss so many features over multi-year development but they're all going to be in on the
"next update"... of course!

Dude, I take it that you like the game and want to defend it... but there's a point where fanboism ends and the drama/comedy starts...

There's also a point where ignorance takes hold of one's judgement. The developers have stated that they are working on things such as UI customization and AA. These are concrete facts. Your retort, however, resides to calling others "fanboys". Try again.

Originally posted by Comaf

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Loekii

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Two raids, planet dedicated to end-game World PvP and soloing, and a pletera of heroic/nightmare level dungeons.

Have we seen a number of neutral reviews of those elements?

 

I am hearing good comments about Iluim (Pvp), but what about the other things you mention. 

Play the game yourself and find out...

 

Reviews are overrated

Maybe.  But you'll notice that when something really is good in the gaming industry, like Skyrim, for example, it gets rave reviews. The mmorpg industry produces some very piss poor games and folks who are avid fans - the kind that actually spend the time to come here and defend their game, for example, may not be the best sample to judge the game.

 

If you get even a few bad reviews of a game, from gamers who play mmorpgs and love the genre in general, then yes, something is definitely wrong. 

 

People need to rationalize why they like something.  It's like religion...it could be a very strange, goofy religion, and those who love it just love it - plain and simple.  It doesn't make it good.

 

A lot of folks are bashing SW: TOR - that says a lot.

The only negativity is from metacritic.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim

The game itself is about as solid as they can get.

Originally posted by sanosukex

already been discussed many many times over, read the metacritic thread if you want examples also read Sepulcher's post couple above to see the point I'm trying to make cause he stated it perfectly

That post relies on more than a few equally bad assumptions.  I'll tackle it if time allows.

But you failed to provide an honest answer.  Is it even possible, in this marketplace on mmorpg.com, that any game can ever be considered successful?

Sandboys hate on anything that's themepark, while not buying or supporting the few games that are targeted as sandboxy.

Themepark guys rip anything for not being as good as WoW+7 on release date.

Is it possible, under any conditions, for any future MMO to succeed?

Originally posted by dubyahite
What? If you've been following this game then you should know it has more endgame then most MMOs at launch.

That is like saying that someone is not that fanatic for a suicide bomber...

MMOs never have much of an endgame at launch, if it have any at all. Wow had a good budget at it's time and still had very little endgame the first 6 months.

But yeah, with all the work and the budget they could have added a little more. Still, if you want an MMO with a endgame you should always wait a year after launch before getting a game.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by sanosukex

already been discussed many many times over, read the metacritic thread if you want examples also read Sepulcher's post couple above to see the point I'm trying to make cause he stated it perfectly

That post relies on more than a few equally bad assumptions.  I'll tackle it if time allows.

But you failed to provide an honest answer.  Is it even possible, in this marketplace on mmorpg.com, that any game can ever be considered successful?

Sandboys hate on anything that's themepark, while not buying or supporting the few games that are targeted as sandboxy.

Themepark guys rip anything for not being as good as WoW+7 on release date.

Is it possible, under any conditions, for any future MMO to succeed?

no clue honestly.. time will tell I guess

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loekii

If he is so incredibly wrong, then why not simply post all the links to the numerous full reviews of all the end game content and how it is unquestionably amazing?

As you might understand, that could be a bit difficult to accomplish on opening day.

Actually, there are a lot of people who hit cap during the pre-launch access for pre-orders.

I spoke to a couple of them from an old guild of mine, and they said there was only 1 raid, and it was broken and unplayable...

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sgel

Yes of course, devs managed to miss so many features over multi-year development but they're all going to be in on the
"next update"... of course!

Dude, I take it that you like the game and want to defend it... but there's a point where fanboism ends and the drama/comedy starts...

There's also a point where ignorance takes hold of one's judgement. The developers have stated that they are working on things such as UI customization and AA. These are concrete facts. Your retort, however, resides to calling others "fanboys". Try again.

Oh I'll try but it seems you like to ignore most points and concetrate on what suits your narrow arguments.
I've played the game for more than I wanted... forcing myself and trying to like it... so ignorance?... No.

UI customization and AA just scratches the surface... and these two features are what MOST mmos have this day from launch day and that includes plenty of F2P mmos.

And to be honest I never really cared about these two features... unlike others I find more important that were not included.

I do however wonder what Bioware's excuse is for not including at least these two features... time?...money?... expertise?... :)

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by sgel

Yes of course, devs managed to miss so many features over multi-year development but they're all going to be in on the
"next update"... of course!

Dude, I take it that you like the game and want to defend it... but there's a point where fanboism ends and the drama/comedy starts...

There's also a point where ignorance takes hold of one's judgement. The developers have stated that they are working on things such as UI customization and AA. These are concrete facts. Your retort, however, resides to calling others "fanboys". Try again.

working on and no reason they shouldn't be in for launch is two differn't things...  nowhere have i said this game blows and no one should play it.. all I'm saying is many things people expect in a late 2011 MMO release like movable UI, fully working graphic features(no AA, no high rez textures), dungeon finder(i know some people don't want it but honestly LFG spam is driving me crazy)

I think honestly what upsets me the most as for me this game would be 100% better if they just added some of these "convienece features" as I like to call them that are in pretty much every MMO like reactive skill indicators or being able to turn on text names for group only or click to cast. In no way is it a horrible game but could have been so much more at launch and many expect it to be with such a long development and budget. Great if all this is going to be added but who knows when... hopefully before another big game is released...