its doing really well and blizzard plans on adding more to it soon.  but we won't let that get in the way of all the people so desperate for wow to fail and finally die.

WOW, isnt that some game? I have played it a long time ago. It wasn't called vanilla though but barrens chat was still alive and kicking.

Originally posted by pmiles

They lost the hard core gamers a long time ago and have been pushing casual gaming for quite some time now. 

And how is that a bad thing?  Casual players probably outnumber the hardcore 10,000:1, so why would losing one elitist prick thats paying $15 a month be in favor of $150,000 a month be a bad thing....heh

Casual is where gaming has gone too, so either like it and join the masses or continue to QQ about it where most don't care...

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by pmiles

They lost the hard core gamers a long time ago and have been pushing casual gaming for quite some time now. 

 

And how is that a bad thing?  Casual players probably outnumber the hardcore 10,000:1, so why would losing one elitist prick thats paying $15 a month be in favor of $150,000 a month be a bad thing....heh

 

Casual is where gaming has gone too, so either like it and join the masses or continue to QQ about it where most don't care...

 

actually i think your wrong. WoW has gone to the casual gamers, not gaming. seriously most the hardcore gamers are waiting for a certian game to be released so that they can play it. so that they can play something different. Personally im waiting for TSW, its something new not a repeat of a old formula. Funny thing about casual gamers, they are fickle. the second something more appealing pops around they run. you see it happening now, things like "prepay for a year of time" is a sign of this. they need money NOW, thus they are willing to risk less money over a short period. if they need money now then they dont have the support of numbers that they used to.

and before you say how much money they are making. take into account the amount of servers they need to run, the amount they are spending on development, and paying their employees.  Blizzards Big, costs alot to keep a game this size floating. Activision has been happily sucking the money from blizzard for awhile. wonder what they will do when the well runs dry.

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by pmiles

They lost the hard core gamers a long time ago and have been pushing casual gaming for quite some time now. 

 

And how is that a bad thing?  Casual players probably outnumber the hardcore 10,000:1, so why would losing one elitist prick thats paying $15 a month be in favor of $150,000 a month be a bad thing....heh

 

Casual is where gaming has gone too, so either like it and join the masses or continue to QQ about it where most don't care...

 

I'm hardly elitist or hardcore . Quite frankly I'm not good enough a player to be either .But I do like a little challenge in a game or its no fun at all to play even if your playing on a casual basis . Which is why I quit WoW .   YoYouuyooyou

You make a valid point that WoW needs to cater to the causal gamer but remember theres an awful lot of us in the middle that don't want a game to be too easy . Perhaps it would be wiser of Blizzard to impliment servers with different difficulty settings . Then maybe they would be losing subs on a monthly basis and perhaps would have had 15 -20 million players when they hit thier peak .

As for this Raid finder . I will say the same thing about it as I did about the dungeon finder . Great idea on PVE servers and absolutly appallingly bad of PVP servers because if kills world PVP .

With a beast of a game about to be released today I think Blizzard may have to reconsider the direction they have taken the game or face paying a heavy price for thier mistakes .

I was excited until I saw the loot is, of course, sub par. Guess that says how they feel about casuals. I'll continue to pass on this game that people claim is for the casual fan.

Just because you can level to max doesn't mean the game is casual when everything else is aimed at the player who gives up his life in order to achieve end game goals. To me EVE is the true casual game. Anyone can do anything.

First let me say, great for Blizzard. They are doing something to react to the call of their players. Well actually, they are supposedly doing something for all those folks who get checked by the WoW Raid TSA at the door and, found wanting, are quickly denied access. I played WoW. I enjoyed it but the higher I got the less it attracted me. Does not mean its bad, but it does not hold my interest. I used ot enjoy 1-30 content more than 30+ and when they brought out CAT, those low levels even seemed... uninteresting. I mean if you want people to get to the good stuff, why make them go through 55 levels of content that you don't really care about to get there?

However, all this good will for LFR seems a bit disengenious to me.

1. LFR is not a huge technical leap from LFD. It isn't and don't let anyone tell you it is. Its all math and its all similar programming. Yet why wait so long to do it? Demand suddenly increased? Wasn't a priority? Really?

2. Has LFR made everyone nicer? Has it stopped "Your Talents are wrong; Your Grear is wrong; Hunters are useless in Raids;" kind of talk? Has it? Seriously doubt that it has.

3. Raiding is as much about time as it is about finding people to Raid with. Many casual gamers rarely have the time for a serious 2 hour Raid. If they did they would not need LFR because there are plenty of PUG's happening every minute of every day.  Has LFR put more hours in the day or shortened Raids? I doubt that. Now maybe it makes getting together for a Raid quicker and that could be a good thing since most hard core players have to make sure their shoes and purses match and their ties are straight before going into the raid.

4. Raiding is not content. Let me say that again: Raiding is not content. You pay your money (gear and proper spec) and you get into the carnival. The very same carnival everyone else gets into. Its just a repeatable quest that feeds on obsession because the stuffed animal you win for knocking down all the bottles is often random. And then you have to fight with your girlfriend over it because while she can use it now, your ALT can use it too.  And it will look WAY hotter on your Blood Elf Wizard than her Goblin Wizard.

Its like old style D&D. Raise your hand if you killed Lolth. Come on, the bitch had 66 Hit Points in 1st Edition... she was basically the hard core snuff porn actress of our childhoods. We ALL took a turn on her. Now its Deathwing, because girls are boring and undead armored dragons are what it takes to get us excited now.  You been there. You done that. Its not content, its a ring toss. And yes, it was not content in EQ either.

5. I hear people saying this helps the casual player, but honestly who it really helps is the guy or gal whose Guild raids only on Tuesdays and Thursdays but who has five other days of the week to do so. Now these hard core folk can Raid easier, every night (like they want to... nothing wrong with it despite my snarky take. If you enjoy it do it), but he or she is still out there and if you have five casual folks, and need five more folks are you gonna take five undergeared Hunters with cool pets (guess which class I played most in WoW) or a mix of 5 hard core gamers who can game the Raid like Nelson gamed Trafalgar?

WoW is responding to pressure from competitors. Great, good for Blizzard but they have not improved the product as much as they have added on more of the same, except they are repackaging it in the form progress.

And the new Talent system? I dunno if its better or not, but Blizzard has changed the Taletn girl friend so often, I just don't care anymore. Just marry one of the bitches already.

Originally posted by logan400k

Just marry one of the bitches already.

That one line was probably the best I have ever heard about WoW. Ever.

The LF tools (any) are all tools designed for aging games, its that simple, when a game is fresh people dont need those tools, in time as population lowers or less peole get intrested in sertain content it gets harder to find the people to do that content thus the need of a LF tool is born.

No good developer will ever release sutch a ingame tool /mechanic untill the game is in absolute need of it. good for wow and its players who want to do that content that there now is a mechanic that lets them more easy do it.. but its not a big deal and sertainly not a programming marvel..

The direction that the developers are taking WoW is designed to have features like LFR. The game is becoming more and more individual-centered; for casual gamers.

The game now is basically this at 85: Log in, queue up for a battleground, arena,  dungeon, or a raid, collect points, and then earn rewards. The whole "I'm in Azeroth and there's miles of land around me" doesn't matter anymore. It's leaving it's MMORPG-ish elements, and gearing up to be more like a Heroes of Newerth style game, with a Steam system interfaced in to manage the mini-games like BG's, arenas, etc.

Not there's a problem with all this of course, it's simply not the game it used to be.

The thing is, if you want this to work without it being a massive grief fest, you pretty much need content easy enough to be puggable. This ability to pug it and do it with any random idiot is a pretty bad thing, more so then the actual raid finder. 

Basically, its not the raid finder thats bad, its the fact raids are simple enough that it can be pugged so easily thats at fault.

Originally posted by Purutzil

The thing is, if you want this to work without it being a massive grief fest, you pretty much need content easy enough to be puggable. This ability to pug it and do it with any random idiot is a pretty bad thing, more so then the actual raid finder. 

 

Basically, its not the raid finder thats bad, its the fact raids are simple enough that it can be pugged so easily thats at fault.

Why so negative about this? It doesn't seem like you know much about WoW's new features. Raids have several tiers now, 3 if i'm not mistaken. The "old" versions are pretty much unchanged, so if you don't wanna pug with "any random idiots" (your words), you still have the same options as before.

This is NOT a bad thing. It makes the contents available to more players, and the "easy-mode" raids can add to the learning for those who wanna go further, making your more hardcore raiding buddies better prepared.

Originally posted by Bloodfin2003

The direction that the developers are taking WoW is designed to have features like LFR. The game is becoming more and more individual-centered; for casual gamers.

The game now is basically this at 85: Log in, queue up for a battleground, arena,  dungeon, or a raid, collect points, and then earn rewards. The whole "I'm in Azeroth and there's miles of land around me" doesn't matter anymore. It's leaving it's MMORPG-ish elements, and gearing up to be more like a Heroes of Newerth style game, with a Steam system interfaced in to manage the mini-games like BG's, arenas, etc.

Not there's a problem with all this of course, it's simply not the game it used to be.

 

Depends entirely on how you want to play. You can either use the game as a lobby or actually break from that and go out in the world and do other things. There are plenty of things to do, and not necessarily achievement-based (I don't mean just achievements here but anything that progresses one's characters).

I like to head out and look at things I might have missed while leveling up. The Blizzard artwork is just amazing in its attention to detail. Just an example, visiting all of the different graveyards in the game and noting how each race (both player and NPC) has different "burial cultures". Or going out and buffing low levels who are leveling up in the game and giving them a hand. A poster on here once a long time ago said that the grind is what you make of it. He was right...

Edit - Oops forgot to say something about the subject of this thread. I am all for an LFR tool. Perhaps I will try a raid again at some point. I have avoided raids since my AO and DAoC tales of atlantis days. I seriously burnt out on them..; couldn't stand the idea. If it isn't as big of a deal now though, I wouldn't mind giving them a go again. I love small groups, just hate raids in general...

Originally posted by MurlockDance

Originally posted by Bloodfin2003

The direction that the developers are taking WoW is designed to have features like LFR. The game is becoming more and more individual-centered; for casual gamers.

The game now is basically this at 85: Log in, queue up for a battleground, arena,  dungeon, or a raid, collect points, and then earn rewards. The whole "I'm in Azeroth and there's miles of land around me" doesn't matter anymore. It's leaving it's MMORPG-ish elements, and gearing up to be more like a Heroes of Newerth style game, with a Steam system interfaced in to manage the mini-games like BG's, arenas, etc.

Not there's a problem with all this of course, it's simply not the game it used to be.

 

Depends entirely on how you want to play. You can either use the game as a lobby or actually break from that and go out in the world and do other things. There are plenty of things to do, and not necessarily achievement-based (I don't mean just achievements here but anything that progresses one's characters).

I like to head out and look at things I might have missed while leveling up. The Blizzard artwork is just amazing in its attention to detail. Just an example, visiting all of the different graveyards in the game and noting how each race (both player and NPC) has different "burial cultures". Or going out and buffing low levels who are leveling up in the game and giving them a hand. A poster on here once a long time ago said that the grind is what you make of it. He was right...

Edit - Oops forgot to say something about the subject of this thread. I am all for an LFR tool. Perhaps I will try a raid again at some point. I have avoided raids since my AO and DAoC tales of atlantis days. I seriously burnt out on them..; couldn't stand the idea. If it isn't as big of a deal now though, I wouldn't mind giving them a go again. I love small groups, just hate raids in general...

 

I know what you mean. I was never a raider type of a player in WoW. I didn't want to schedulize my free time for a game, and I was perfectly happy WoW player as such. Leveling a toon took months, there were countless of quests and dungeons to explore, and in Vanilla and early TBC times the dungeons were challenging and needed team work, which was exactly the reason that kept me playing WoW. I was a casual player, not a dumb one.

What could have they done to made me raid? LFR -tool similar to the first LFG -tool, which created a group automatically from people on your own server. No teleports, no buffs, no nerfed mobs or loot, only put these people in a same group. I could have queued for an entire time I was playing, to hope some guild needs fill-ups for their raid group, or enough other players show up for a PUG run. But for christs sake, nerfing all the dungeons, all the raids and all the quests to the ground makes the whole game pointless, unless you are a PvP'er, HC raider (only does raiding with a guild, no alts) or a non-gamer, and if Blizzard re-designs their games for non-gamers it's pretty much same as making sneakers for wheel-chair patients only.

The best part of WoW was always the world, and not many of these newer games have got even close to what the world was in WoW (Warhammer, SW:ToR, I'm looking at you). I said 'was', since unfortunately the new developer team thrashed the only part that could have kept me playing: the world. You could find new details you had missed on your previous toon every time, even after 5 years subscription. And then, it's all gone, only to be replaced by a tube where your only goal is to reach the other end.

Originally posted by Dracondis

Originally posted by pmiles

Actually without it, WoW, would be in really desperate shape.  They lost the hard core gamers a long time ago and have been pushing casual gaming for quite some time now.  They really can't turn back, so it's in for a nickel or nothing at all at this point.  Expect more of these type of changes in MoP.  A lot more.  LOL, I'm surprised they haven't come up with pre-queuing for stuff yet.  You pre-queue when you plan on logging on and when you log in, you get ported directly into a dungeon or raid.  No more sitting in a city alt-tabbed out, you just do dungeons or raids or battlegrounds directly.  No need for guilds or anything.  That is the future that awaits us in WoW.

 

The phrase is "in for a penny, in for a pound", but you're right.  Blizzard hasn't lost the hardcore crowd (as they happen to be the most hardcore game out there right now, if you aren't looking at grindfest JRPGs), so much as they just realize that TBC was as good as they were going to get and they weren't going to be the lot to carry WoW forward (there just aren't enough of them to make a difference financially, after all).  The casualifying (making up new words here) of the game is a natural progression of the pursuit of money, and teh commercial success of WoW is a testiment to the fact that a "hard" game isn't what makes it in this world.  Games that are fun, exciting, and innovative don't have to be hard, challenging, or even repetative (85 levels of quests, dungeons, PVP and dailies will be repetative anyway...) and they will be successful.  While I personally would like to see things be a bit more challenging, I have ways to make the game more challenging (like taking on content that is ovcer my level just to see if I can), so I'm not complaining.  Harddores wanted challenge in raiding, so Blizzard gave them hard modes.  Did they run them?  No.  Did they complain about still wanting challenges?  Yes.  Did Blizzard stop listening to the little whiners?  Yes.  Enter MoP.  I'm laughing all the way to the bank on this one.  I predicted this expansion back in Vanillla.  So enjoy the game for what it is.  I am.

LOL he implied WoW was hardcore.....

Just one more way that Blizzard expands on their content.

It's not taking anything away from anyone but adding a new way to game for all. Some might not use it but it doesn't matter, what matters is that more people are now able to see the end bosses, the climactic endings and so on. In that sense it's just like Arenas, some might not use it but others get the opportunity to face off against other players in an organized matter.

WoW has shown that MMORPGs can be focused on doing stuff that will advance your character as much as possible. This is in the form of queues (that all themepark MMORPGs are now adopting - even SW:ToR will have this as confirmed by the developers) for the various advancement granting content (be that arenas, battlegrounds, dungeons, or raids). The game world is then used for standard questing, crafting, secondary activities (in WoW that's for instance Fishing/Archaeology in other games it would be something else) and in-character storytelling (roleplaying).

With PvP oriented games (like for instance WAR) there will ofcourse also be world PvP.