All of the new mmos are pitiful. Im playing no mmorpgs right now, thats how bad it is. The new features they offer are dynamic events and voice overs. Im tired of npcs. A next gen mmo should have no npcs. Pure player based. Think up new ideas developers, maybe players can be monsters instead of being the super god like fighter in every mmo? IDK just an idea. I can think of a million simple ideas that would be thats better than the single player rpg things like dynamic events and voice over. MMORPGs are in a bad state.

Originally posted by Snoogems

All of the new mmos are pitiful. Im playing no mmorpgs right now, thats how bad it is. The new features they offer are dynamic events and voice overs. Im tired of npcs. A next gen mmo should have no npcs. Pure player based. Think up new ideas developers, maybe players can be monsters instead of being the super god like fighter in every mmo? IDK just an idea. I can think of a million simple ideas that would be thats better than the single player rpg things like dynamic events and voice over. MMORPGs are in a bad state.

o.o havent you herd of gw2?

If you want an innovative game, then go play an innovative game.  Don't just sit here and complain that there are also some games that didn't bother to innovate much.

Vote with your wallet!

I don't believe GW2 is ground-breaking, but it does have innovations.

I'm waiting for ArcheAge like it's a holy grail... If it fails, I give up on this genre, cause then It will never get the funding needed for really innovative but at the same time high-quality, immersive, fun MMORPG.

Innovative games rarely do well because games that break ground rarely do it right the first time. This makes them high risk so they never get funded in the first place.

Innovative games are not seen in the AAA forum anymore. Look to indie games for innovation.

End of thread.

'Old schematics' in mmorpg's - hundreads "kill 10 rats" + grind medallions & tokens in instances still work well enough :(

So until Developers feel forced by market to innovate, they won't innovate.

I'm amazed at posts like these, because the implication is that the OP could do so much better, or is sitting on a heap of ideas that for whatever reason are not finding their way to the right people.  The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar business (not sure what % MMORPG's market segments are), if that's truly where your passion is, go out and take a slice.  There is a lot going on right here, right now.  If you don't see it then it's because you're not looking.

You say creativity is lacking and then go on to talk about features like voice overs.  Those things represent production value, they are not true creativity.  You don't need a whole lot to be creative.  Just look at the Wright brothers; they worked in a bicycle shop and ended up designing and building the first powered airplane.  Nowdays we have 747's, but let's not forget how it all began.

I recommend finding an indie MMO with a small community, and focusing on making a positive impact.  Vendetta Online gives users that want to help out access to tools like the mission editor, and it is a community that is both productive and condusive to fostering creativity.  Not only does it have a 50 page backstory, but numerous players have writting their own RP fictions, designed missions, ships, suggested changes and seen them implemented.  To date, I've designed and written sixty-five missions that have made it into production.  It was just released for Android this past year.  Mobile device users can now seamlessly play with desktop and laptop users in the same game world; it's a great time to be a Vendetta Online player if you value creativity and are in to game design.

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want an innovative game, then go play an innovative game.  Don't just sit here and complain that there are also some games that didn't bother to innovate much.

ER, the OP's point is there are "No" new and innovative MMORPG's right now.

He's right. 

Some indy company is going to come out of nowhere with an mmorpg equivalent of Minecraft, and wham! it wil be a rebirth for the genre.

All the suits will be running to copy and make it bigger and glossier. Or they will buy it from the indy dev and they will move off into the sunset retired by 30. Just watch.

It has to come from someone who loves games. Now games are coming from people who only love money.

Ironically, the one who loves games will make the money.

Originally posted by Snoogems

All of the new mmos are pitiful. Im playing no mmorpgs right now, thats how bad it is. The new features they offer are dynamic events and voice overs. Im tired of npcs. A next gen mmo should have no npcs. Pure player based. Think up new ideas developers, maybe players can be monsters instead of being the super god like fighter in every mmo? IDK just an idea. I can think of a million simple ideas that would be thats better than the single player rpg things like dynamic events and voice over. MMORPGs are in a bad state.

All game characters should be player controlled?

Well, play a FPS then. :D

No, I'm kidding. Ideally, every creature in the game should be controlled by a human-level intelligence... but this is inpractical for now because a) there is no AI advanced enough and b) you can't force paying customers to play mobs doing dull jobs that are required for simulating any kind of a more complex world (hence my joke about FPSs)

Instead I propose a compromise: Indirectly controlled NPCs. Like in RTSs players should be able to give standing orders to npcs and animals populating the world. Say, a player should be able to buy a farm and order the npcs there to work, guard etc. Other players should be able to attack the farm and its NPCs while their owner is away.

Frankly you can see how this traditional "purely player run economy" is not working in games like Darkfall - because no one wants to work in a mine or chop down trees for their guild overlords. If guilds or players could hire NPCs to do these menial jobs the sandbox genre would be much invigorated.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Snoogems

All of the new mmos are pitiful. Im playing no mmorpgs right now, thats how bad it is. The new features they offer are dynamic events and voice overs. Im tired of npcs. A next gen mmo should have no npcs. Pure player based. Think up new ideas developers, maybe players can be monsters instead of being the super god like fighter in every mmo? IDK just an idea. I can think of a million simple ideas that would be thats better than the single player rpg things like dynamic events and voice over. MMORPGs are in a bad state.

All game characters should be player controlled?

Well, play a FPS then. :D

No, I'm kidding. Ideally, every creature in the game should be controlled by a human-level intelligence... but this is inpractical for now because a) there is no AI advanced enough and b) you can't force paying customers to play mobs doing dull jobs that are required for simulating any kind of a more complex world (hence my joke about FPSs)

       In regard to the state of current AI Im not sure whether or not they don't have better AI or whether they just aren't using it. Take a look at this article ( http://www.gamexplain.com/article-292-1287431920-gamers-dont-want-ai-smarter-than-they-are.html) so you have a better idea of where Im coming from. It suggests that as gamers we don't want to constantly get our arses kicked (essentially) so, therefore, highly sophisticated AI isn't being used. I'm pretty sure the tools are out there but can we gamers accept not being the ultimate badass by default and enjoy them?

Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

Some indy company is going to come out of nowhere with an mmorpg equivalent of Minecraft, and wham! it wil be a rebirth for the genre.

All the suits will be running to copy and make it bigger and glossier. Or they will buy it from the indy dev and they will move off into the sunset retired by 30. Just watch.

It has to come from someone who loves games. Now games are coming from people who only love money.

Ironically, the one who loves games will make the money.

 

Actually this is my hope for the genre as well, that a wild card will bust through with something new and different and set the genre down a new path (for a time).

Hey, it could happen.

Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

Some indy company is going to come out of nowhere with an mmorpg equivalent of Minecraft, and wham! it wil be a rebirth for the genre.

All the suits will be running to copy and make it bigger and glossier. Or they will buy it from the indy dev and they will move off into the sunset retired by 30. Just watch.

It has to come from someone who loves games. Now games are coming from people who only love money.

Ironically, the one who loves games will make the money.

 

I'm guessing majority of "ones who love games" couldn't make a good game even if they had the technical proficiency. They just lack the ability to make good design decisions. Atleast that is how it looks by reading the forums.

I don't think the word is really amazed that there is a lack of creativity but more like that you are not comfortable, or mad that there is a lack of creativity, or that you're not happy with it.

When WoW came out and all MMORPGs, and I don't mean all future MMORPGs, ALL MMORPGs including past began to copy WoW (there may have been some games that didn't entirely). At the point when my favorite MMORPG changed back in what, like 2004 or something, I knew that it would be no surprise when games made decades from then would all be the same copying WoW.

Not because WoW was a better game (well, it kinda was) but because entire game companies began to gut out their own game to replace the gut contents with WoW-like gut contents. I mean, sure, when a particular trend becomes popular in a game genre, future games should try to copy that. But even OLDER games, too? At the risk of losing your own CURRENT fanbase to try and steal fans from WoW's fanbase? That's just ridiculous, wrong, stupid, betrayal, etc., etc. it's all kinds of wrong.

That's why a lot of people are unhappy. It's not really even WoW's fault for being awesome.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm expressing the same feelings but by ranting and making the word choice seem like a big deal in order to exaggerate the point even bigger. Once I realized how big I just made the point sound, I laughed though. You'd think I'd be weeping for the current status of MMORPGs, but they really are just games and at least I have good memories of my favorite MMORPG before it was ruined. Like posters before me have said like Kyleran, maybe there is still hope.

Try to enjoy the holidays though everyone. I'm still gonna try Star Wars: TOR out.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want an innovative game, then go play an innovative game.  Don't just sit here and complain that there are also some games that didn't bother to innovate much.

ER, the OP's point is there are "No" new and innovative MMORPG's right now.

He's right. 

 

Except that if that's his point, then he's wildly wrong, unless he takes a very narrow view of what counts as "new".  I've been playing Uncharted Waters Online recently.  Seems plenty innovative to me, since it does few things that you'd expect "most" MMORPGs to do.  Lots of exploration, lots of trading, and not really that much combat.

It's not the "there aren't any NPCs" approach that the original poster wants.  But there are plenty of innovative games out there.  If you're looking for one particular innovation, that makes things harder.  A Tale in the Desert didn't have any NPCs, though, unless you count the schools and universities, which are kind of like NPCs.

Actually many of the ideas posed by the original poster were done. 

The result was asheron's call 2.

Yes they backed off somewhat from it several months later when the failure was evident -- but -- at least as asheron's call 2 started and for about 4 months after that -- it pretty much was the game the OP wanted.

Unfortunately after the initial release, there was nothing they could do to fix it, even though after the expansion it became a much better game that a lot of people would actually want to give a try compared to what we have now -- but then again I always thought ultima online 2 and later X would have been games people might want to play as well.

At any rate... 

This also allows others to potential refine it because it has done the tried and failed once -- but .... shiver ....

-----

It is too bad they even called it AC2 because it kind of made an AC3 harder to ever happen and I would relish an AC3 that was true to the AC1 roots.

Originally posted by centkin

Actually many of the ideas posed by the original poster were done. 

The result was asheron's call 2.

Yes they backed off somewhat from it several months later when the failure was evident -- but -- at least as asheron's call 2 started and for about 4 months after that -- it pretty much was the game the OP wanted.

Unfortunately after the initial release, there was nothing they could do to fix it, even though after the expansion it became a much better game that a lot of people would actually want to give a try compared to what we have now -- but then again I always thought ultima online 2 and later X would have been games people might want to play as well.

At any rate... 

This also allows others to potential refine it because it has done the tried and failed once -- but .... shiver ....

-----

It is too bad they even called it AC2 because it kind of made an AC3 harder to ever happen and I would relish an AC3 that was true to the AC1 roots.

I'm still waiting for UO2 here! Too bad that it'll probably be quite the wait.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want an innovative game, then go play an innovative game.  Don't just sit here and complain that there are also some games that didn't bother to innovate much.

ER, the OP's point is there are "No" new and innovative MMORPG's right now.

He's right. 

 

Except that if that's his point, then he's wildly wrong, unless he takes a very narrow view of what counts as "new".  I've been playing Uncharted Waters Online recently.  Seems plenty innovative to me, since it does few things that you'd expect "most" MMORPGs to do.  Lots of exploration, lots of trading, and not really that much combat.

It's not the "there aren't any NPCs" approach that the original poster wants.  But there are plenty of innovative games out there.  If you're looking for one particular innovation, that makes things harder.  A Tale in the Desert didn't have any NPCs, though, unless you count the schools and universities, which are kind of like NPCs.

I think he means games that he'd like. Uncharted Waters is like from 2005, imported and translated into english like in 2010 and was poorly made. If you want to get into ethics like SHOULD people pay money to play games like that in order for more innovation to be made, then I won't argue since that may be true. But it certainly doesn't help when the only innovative games are of such a low quality that characters can walk through desks (Unless you want to argue that walking through desks is innovative and edgy somehow lol).

Originally posted by Plasmicredx

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want an innovative game, then go play an innovative game.  Don't just sit here and complain that there are also some games that didn't bother to innovate much.

ER, the OP's point is there are "No" new and innovative MMORPG's right now.

He's right. 

 

Except that if that's his point, then he's wildly wrong, unless he takes a very narrow view of what counts as "new".  I've been playing Uncharted Waters Online recently.  Seems plenty innovative to me, since it does few things that you'd expect "most" MMORPGs to do.  Lots of exploration, lots of trading, and not really that much combat.

It's not the "there aren't any NPCs" approach that the original poster wants.  But there are plenty of innovative games out there.  If you're looking for one particular innovation, that makes things harder.  A Tale in the Desert didn't have any NPCs, though, unless you count the schools and universities, which are kind of like NPCs.

I think he means games that he'd like. Uncharted Waters is like from 2005, imported and translated into english like in 2010 and was poorly made. If you want to get into ethics like SHOULD people pay money to play games like that in order for more innovation to be made, then I won't argue since that may be true. But it certainly doesn't help when the only innovative games are of such a low quality that characters can walk through desks (Unless you want to argue that walking through desks is innovative and edgy somehow lol).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQrdhlYEcuk&t=6m30s

 UWO should have been the last MMO I ever downloaded. I played UW forever on super nintendo. I went to UWO so full of hope with my rose colored glasses on, the music was tinged with the original and I picked up on it right away.

Then i jumped on my ship, set sail for the great blue yonder and got told I needed a permit for that.

Left, horribly disappointed.

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Snoogems

All of the new mmos are pitiful. Im playing no mmorpgs right now, thats how bad it is. The new features they offer are dynamic events and voice overs. Im tired of npcs. A next gen mmo should have no npcs. Pure player based. Think up new ideas developers, maybe players can be monsters instead of being the super god like fighter in every mmo? IDK just an idea. I can think of a million simple ideas that would be thats better than the single player rpg things like dynamic events and voice over. MMORPGs are in a bad state.

All game characters should be player controlled?

Well, play a FPS then. :D

No, I'm kidding. Ideally, every creature in the game should be controlled by a human-level intelligence... but this is inpractical for now because a) there is no AI advanced enough and b) you can't force paying customers to play mobs doing dull jobs that are required for simulating any kind of a more complex world (hence my joke about FPSs)

       In regard to the state of current AI Im not sure whether or not they don't have better AI or whether they just aren't using it. Take a look at this article ( http://www.gamexplain.com/article-292-1287431920-gamers-dont-want-ai-smarter-than-they-are.html) so you have a better idea of where Im coming from. It suggests that as gamers we don't want to constantly get our arses kicked (essentially) so, therefore, highly sophisticated AI isn't being used. I'm pretty sure the tools are out there but can we gamers accept not being the ultimate badass by default and enjoy them?

 

Hmm, I wouldn't exactly use the "better" qualifier when talking about AI... maybe "complex" would be more appropriate? You can make a killer AI for playing chess but as one of my chess buff friends long time ago said "it plays well but its boring."

At the moment NPC AI is severely limited, just look at the moronic mobs of WoW. They don't have to be super-smart, they just have to be... rich in their range of behaviours. Different creatures should play differently. For example there should be a "bravery" stat somewhere so the mob can decide to run away.. or call its friends to aid. And if your PC is perfectly capable of running empires as your opponent in RTSs or Civilization, and do it in a range of different styles and characters, I don't see why mmo AI has to stay at the level of Super Mario mushrooms.

You'd be surprised how much advanced processing is required for stupidity. That's one of psychology's greatest mysteries - actually stupidity often requires much more thought than common sense. I'd love to see more stupid but rich mob behaviors.

A case in point: Mount & Blade. You have hundreds of lords and ladies NPCs in that game who are constantly warring, scheming and marrying each other. The political situation in the world is ever changing and you are just one of them playing on the even field with them. It is brilliant. It is fantastic and it does not grow old. You have to constantly consider who to ally with, whom to bribe, do you accept the request to join a war against someone who might later turn out to be the key to increasing your power? It's fantastic. I have no idea why no sandbox mmo so far has used this approach to world building.

This notion that all the decisions and actions in a sandbox mmo have to be taken by players is extrmely stifling for the sub-genre imo. The point is that while pre-written stories are bad for sandbox, emergent npc-behavior is  really  the way to go. And that is why I consider GW2's Dynamic Events a step forward for the genre, exactly because of emergent-behaviour elements they feature.