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  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1098

 
OP  12/16/11 11:39:35 AM#1

This started out as a response to a post about why Blizzard was the most succesful gaming company as far as MMO's were concerned.  But, it morphed into something else so i thought i'd make a new thread.

All of this discussion and its all one really VERY simple answer.

Blizzard made an MMO that was ACCESSIBLE.

To elaborate, they used a graphics engine that even at release was not strenuous and could be run on systems that were 1-2 years old, this allowed people who weren't hard core PC gamers willing to invest hundreds if not thousands of dollars into their rigs, to play the game. EverQuest 1 took a big risk at release by requiring a 3d card at a time when only the most dedicated gamers even had 3d cards in their systems. Blizzard made the game mechanics very casual in so much as leveling was absurdly faster than any current MMO, the world and leveling methods were very focused and linear (and don't even try to play the non linear card, questing was far and away the quickest way to level and people followed the quest hubs wherever they were told to go).

What blizzard did was open a gaming genre up to a much broader audience. A genre that beforehand was VERY niche, and had about 1.5mil players split between 3 major games which all catered to a very different style of play.

I still contend that the vast majority of the MMO community are not MMO gamers. What i mean by that is there are people who are RTS fans, or FPS fans, or sports games fans. Do they occasional cross over and play other games, yes, of course, but they are no representative of the fan base of certain types of gaming. For example, the group of people who like flight simulators like them BECAUSE they are brutally realistic. For most people a flight simulator is unfun, boring, has a steep learning curve, and even after you learn, its still boring.

The MMO gamer prior to WOW was attracted to this style of gaming because it was an RPG set in a huge, unforgiving and dangerous world. It actually felt like a world, not a theme-park as everyone likes to call it nowadays. The Pre WOW mmo'er knew and accepted that it took a long time to level, that death penalties were severe, etc. MMO gamers pre wow were made fun of by other gamers. It was like being a LARPer, you knew it was a socially unacceptable activity, so you still did it, but you were careful who you told, etc.

Now, Blizzard releases an MMO, and all of sudden all the people who are very casual gamers, or cross genre gamers, decide to come try out an MMO. These people never knew what an MMO was before WOW, so they assumed WOW was representative of the MMO genre. These people have different ideas of what gaming is about. They're the type of people who are more instant gratification. The type of people who would have fun in an arcade, where its about the short term, right now, action. So, what they did and what Blizzard ultimately facilitated was the equivalent of turning Flight Simulator X into Dog Fighting Game X.

People wonder why so many of us EQ vets and UO vets, etc, are so pissed about the current state of the genre. This is why. Blizzard took our favorite style of gaming, and for all intents and purposes shit all over it and turned into the computer gaming equivalent of a Britney spears pop record. No substance, no dignity, just designed to make money.

And on that note, i really, REALLY can't wrap my head around the fact that people think that just because something is popular, that its inherently good. I know its a normal part of human psychology, but are people really so shallow that the only way they can enjoy something is if 10 million other people "enjoy" it too? I listen to and enjoy major big name rock music artists just as much as i enjoy listening to some very eclectic, underground darkwave or EBM groups. How many records they sold or how many people know about them is literally of zero concern to me.

All i care about is whether the company, musician, artist, whatever, releases a quality product that they put their hearts and souls into making. And though you could argue WOW may have started that way, it certainly hasn't ended that way. All WOW now is a money making machine specifically directed by accountants and investors ensuring they receive maximum profits off all the (IMHO) idiots who still subscribe and play the game because they're too attached to their accounts and characters and the thought of losing all of that invested time and effort is unacceptable. Its like the friggin gaming equivalent of Stockholm syndrome. Yea, we've all been there, even us old school EQ'ers and such. We understand, But its time to let go and realize that your time is better spent pursuing and supporting games that actually deserve your $15/mo.

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Vahrane

Elite Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 380

12/16/11 11:48:22 AM#2

      Excellent little write up there! I really appreciated how clearly and concisely you made your case. I've felt like writing something similar but as your title suggests these kinds of posts do appear a decent bit on this site. Still, kudos to you for spearheading the disconnect that occured between old UO/EQ etc players and the current generation of mmorpgs.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/16/11 2:20:39 PM#3

Popularity doesn't equal quality, certainly.

But in the case of WOW, there is no MMORPG out there which is a better game (though many might be better worlds) than WOW.  And that's why it attracted gamers from other genres, because gamers care about gameplay first and foremost.

I have a hard time feeling the industry's state is anything but justified successes and failures -- at least until I find a game which I feel genuinely surpasses WOW's polish, controls, and combat, which then proceeds to do worse than WOW.

So for now, the games which are the most fun are the ones which are most successful.  And that feels right.

  wvmaxfangvw

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/11
Posts: 22

12/16/11 3:21:48 PM#4
Originally posted by Axehilt

So for now, the games which are the most fun are the ones which are most successful.  And that feels right.

I have to assume that you completely missed the point the original poster had intended to make. As a long time MMO player and former WoW player I can fully understand the opinion expressed here. I would certainly hope that the rest of the responders stop and realize that if you haven't dealt with  "Time Progression", "Warr Camp" or "Champion Spawns" then chances are you're not a part of the gaming community that this thread is actually relavant to.

Fun is a completely subjective word just as the example of a Flight Simulator showed. For those of us who enjoy MMORPGs it is about the Challenge, the thrill of victory that is only truly appriciated against the grim taste of defeat. Making close bonds with the people that we rely on and shed blood with repeatedly as we grow from weaklings into legends.

If a company designed a game which involved guns from a first person perspective they might be tempted to lable it a first person shooter. However, if this game also featured a radar which gave away enemy location at all times flat damage reguardless of body part hit and a "tab-target" lock on system to make it more accessible to players who didn't have the reflexes/aim/map-awareness for standard FPS the CoD faithful would be insulted that it would dare lay claim to the genre. WoW is no less a farce in calling itself and MMO than the fictional "FPS" that I detailed.

WoW at no point requires a player to group in order to progress, therefore they don't. That's not multiplayer...

The World of Warcraft had far less square footage than it's predecessors. Hardly Massive...

You do need an internet connection to play it. This one they got right.

Every character shares the exact same story. You're all "THE chosen ONE", wtf?  It's predecessors had no problem beginning a quest dialog with "Oh great, another one... Well I suppose I can find something for you to do too" reminding you that you were one of many grunts looking to prove themselves. In a Role Playing scenarios the game may guide you but it  doesn't lead you by the nose.

It is a Game they got this one to.

They only got 2 out of the six right, and one of them is a technicallity since it could just have well been a Diablo style single player game with similar online capabilities. I doubt anybody would have noticed a difference.

WoW may be entertaining for a period but it lacks the long term (measured in played hours, not subscription length) "fun" that is expected from those who remember what MMO meant before Blizzard decided to take the genre for a game which barely met the qualifications.

wvmaxfangvw Xfire Miniprofile
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16683

12/16/11 3:29:52 PM#5

I think it is a lot more basic, Blizzard made the first really proffesional game in the genre. 

M59, UO, EQ, DaoC, AC and the rest all had fine ideas, but they never truly had great coding or a big budget. Most of those devs were amateurs even though Garriot made a bunch of single player games.

Compare most hit games with those games though and you see that they never been near in polish. While a few games like Minecraft old good on just the idea you really need a polished game to make a real bestseller and that is why Wow could get so big.

Once Blizz had a few million players they could put work in making the game accessable to all players, but that couldn't have happened without the basics.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/16/11 4:08:23 PM#6
Originally posted by wvmaxfangvw
Originally posted by Axehilt

So for now, the games which are the most fun are the ones which are most successful.  And that feels right.

I have to assume that you completely missed the point the original poster had intended to make. As a long time MMO player and former WoW player I can fully understand the opinion expressed here. I would certainly hope that the rest of the responders stop and realize that if you haven't dealt with  "Time Progression", "Warr Camp" or "Champion Spawns" then chances are you're not a part of the gaming community that this thread is actually relavant to.

Fun is a completely subjective word just as the example of a Flight Simulator showed. For those of us who enjoy MMORPGs it is about the Challenge, the thrill of victory that is only truly appriciated against the grim taste of defeat. Making close bonds with the people that we rely on and shed blood with repeatedly as we grow from weaklings into legends.

If a company designed a game which involved guns from a first person perspective they might be tempted to lable it a first person shooter. However, if this game also featured a radar which gave away enemy location at all times flat damage reguardless of body part hit and a "tab-target" lock on system to make it more accessible to players who didn't have the reflexes/aim/map-awareness for standard FPS the CoD faithful would be insulted that it would dare lay claim to the genre. WoW is no less a farce in calling itself and MMO than the fictional "FPS" that I detailed.

WoW at no point requires a player to group in order to progress, therefore they don't. That's not multiplayer...

The World of Warcraft had far less square footage than it's predecessors. Hardly Massive...

You do need an internet connection to play it. This one they got right.

Every character shares the exact same story. You're all "THE chosen ONE", wtf?  It's predecessors had no problem beginning a quest dialog with "Oh great, another one... Well I suppose I can find something for you to do too" reminding you that you were one of many grunts looking to prove themselves. In a Role Playing scenarios the game may guide you but it  doesn't lead you by the nose.

It is a Game they got this one to.

They only got 2 out of the six right, and one of them is a technicallity since it could just have well been a Diablo style single player game with similar online capabilities. I doubt anybody would have noticed a difference.

WoW may be entertaining for a period but it lacks the long term (measured in played hours, not subscription length) "fun" that is expected from those who remember what MMO meant before Blizzard decided to take the genre for a game which barely met the qualifications.

Except that what you're describing -- done to a FPS -- completely undermines the core skill involved.  More importantly, it undermines the core skills that players find enjoyable.

WOW on the other hand didn't undermine the core skill involved, and actually cut out several fatty deadweight systems which players didn't find enjoyable.

The oldschool MMORPGers (like the OP's post) lament the loss of these fatty systems, when really the better feedback they could give would be how to add more depth to gameplay through tweaks to the existing system, or new systems.

Good game design is about providing interesting decisions.  Timesinks and Tediums are the worst forms of "challenge" (if you stretch the definition enough to even call them that) because they're not interesting decisions.  They're just inefficient interfaces and big wastes of time.

  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1098

 
OP  12/16/11 5:15:15 PM#7
 
 
Originally posted by Loke666

I think it is a lot more basic, Blizzard made the first really proffesional game in the genre. 

M59, UO, EQ, DaoC, AC and the rest all had fine ideas, but they never truly had great coding or a big budget. Most of those devs were amateurs even though Garriot made a bunch of single player games.

Compare most hit games with those games though and you see that they never been near in polish. While a few games like Minecraft old good on just the idea you really need a polished game to make a real bestseller and that is why Wow could get so big.

Once Blizz had a few million players they could put work in making the game accessable to all players, but that couldn't have happened without the basics.

I think it's pretty clear that you either havent played EQ, or that you are making the mistake of judging games by modern standards as opposed to the standards at the time of release (I.E. The New > Old fallacy).  EQ came out in 1999, most of the top games of the year were not even 3d games. For its time EQ had excellent graphics, excellent and polished code (most MMO's have lag issues to this day, EQ1 ran flawlessly on dialup modems), and it had a far less buggy release than many MMO's released since, including WOW. Also, you talk about success, EverQuest sold 3.5 million copies of the game, compare that to the vaunted Diablo II (released june of 2000) which sold about 4 million copies. Now, factor in that Diablo II was not 3d, and that EverQuest *required* a 3d card to play, and it gives you an idea of how succesful EQ1 was for its time.

The polish argument is bunk when comparing it to EQ.

 

 

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1098

 
OP  12/16/11 5:39:43 PM#8
 
 
Originally posted by Axehilt
Except that what you're describing -- done to a FPS -- completely undermines the core skill involved.  More importantly, it undermines the core skills that players find enjoyable. WOW on the other hand didn't undermine the core skill involved, and actually cut out several fatty deadweight systems which players didn't find enjoyable.

The oldschool MMORPGers (like the OP's post) lament the loss of these fatty systems, when really the better feedback they could give would be how to add more depth to gameplay through tweaks to the existing system, or new systems.

Good game design is about providing interesting decisions.  Timesinks and Tediums are the worst forms of "challenge" (if you stretch the definition enough to even call them that) because they're not interesting decisions.  They're just inefficient interfaces and big wastes of time.

You are missing the point.  The point was that the "fatty systems" which gamers find "unfun" are only unfun to people who were not MMO gamers.  I'll give you an easy to understand example.  Race cars.  The seats are uncomfortable, they are loud due to no sound dampening materials, its hot, the suspension is harsh, etc.  This is all done to save weight and increase performance.  But, people who like racing are into this, they wouldnt trade the performance loss for a more comfortable seat, for example.  WOW is the equivalent of bringing races to the masses by going to people who aren't racers, and going "hey, wanna try racing" and then strapping them into a "race car" that has nice thick padded seats, and sound dampening so they dont have to listen to the engine, etc, and a soft, compliant suspension so they're not jarred when they're driving.  Those people are then convinced by blizzard and subsequently convincing themselves that they are now racing enthusiasts.  Guess what, they're not.

The thing that people don't understand is that there is a huge difference between what EQ did and true timesinks.  Blizzard has plenty of true timesinks in WOW.  Remember those insane faction grinds just so you could get 1 item from 1 faction that was really nice?  Remember how there was 1 or 2 caves which had very few spawns that you could kill for said faction?  Has anybody forgotten about Archaeology?  That was such a blatant slap in the face timesink it wasnt even funny.

You look at other games like FFXI which had timesinks in the form of making everything slow.  Running was slow, attacks were slow, etc.

EQ definitely had some timesinks but it was no worse than anything out today.  See the difference is in the days of EQ, the idea of a "end game" didnt exist, that term wasnt coined until long after it released.  Now, MMOs aren't about the journey, they're about getting to this supposed "end game", and leveling is looked at as this barrier you have to get through before you can play the "real game". 

In EQ you didnt look at it that way, because of the fact that leveling did take so long, you didnt mind spending a couple hours to go do some dungeon runs, or to go explore that area which is way higher level than you. Getting to that new outside area and being able to go into that new dungeon was exciting and fun.  Everyone thinks people just sat around killing the same 6 mobs in a 50 foot radius for 10 hours a day to get levels.  It wasn't like that.  I remember many times where i spent hours with people exploring a dungeon, trying to find boss mobs and such, where i didnt even look at the XP bar but maybe one or twice.  Why, because i was busy having fun, i didnt care about how long it took to level.  I had plenty to do.

In WOW and modern MMO's, you're basically an idiot for doing anything outside of leveling because your options are A. Spend 2 hours questing and make 3-5 levels, or B. Go do a dungeon run, get an item that you're going to outlevel in 3 hours, and realize you were better off just spending that 3 hours "leveling".  EQ was smart because it made your main method of getting XP and getting Items one and the same.  This in turn promoted grouping, which made you have to interact with other people, which created a real community.

Now, again, im not saying EQ was perfect.  There were some insanely dumb things.  The ability to have your corpse dissapear and lose ALL of your items for example, was dumb.  Being able to delevel from experience loss, was dumb.  Ultimately having a lack of instancing due to technology at the time, created situations where dungeons could support 4-6 groups at a time, but due to no instancing, people ended up making lists and you many times had to wait to get into a solid XP group.  Again, that was a technical limitation of the times so it cant be viewed as a design flaw.

Anyways, I just wanted to respond, i wont waste a lot of time as ive already said my piece.

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/16/11 5:54:10 PM#9
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

I think it's pretty clear that you either havent played EQ, or that you are making the mistake of judging games by modern standards as opposed to the standards at the time of release (I.E. The New > Old fallacy).  EQ came out in 1999, most of the top games of the year were not even 3d games. For its time EQ had excellent graphics, excellent and polished code (most MMO's have lag issues to this day, EQ1 ran flawlessly on dialup modems), and it had a far less buggy release than many MMO's released since, including WOW. Also, you talk about success, EverQuest sold 3.5 million copies of the game, compare that to the vaunted Diablo II (released june of 2000) which sold about 4 million copies. Now, factor in that Diablo II was not 3d, and that EverQuest *required* a 3d card to play, and it gives you an idea of how succesful EQ1 was for its time.

The polish argument is bunk when comparing it to EQ. 

It's not about whether EQ was more polished than any other MMORPG at the time.

It's about EQ's polish vs. the polish of non-MMORPGs at the time.

EQ's look definitely wasn't on par with other games at that time.

Personally my biggest reason for not trying it at the time was during EQ's first couple years I talked with ~20 different people who played it and it felt like each person I talked to brought up a completely new reason the game's gameplay sounded terrible.

Meanwhile, System Shock 2, AOE2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Diablo 2, and SC:Brood War were providing extremely high quality gameplay during those same years (not to mention BG 1 and 2, for the RPG crowd.)

I can't make the direct comparison because I never gave EQ a try, but it definitely sounded like most of the fun was hidden behind obtuse UIs, timesinks, and tedium compared with games released at the same time which let players quickly have a lot of fun.

To a degree it's the nature of the beast.  Spreading your dev hours over 20 hours of bread is obviously going to be thicker than spread those same hours over 2000 hours of bread. 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/16/11 6:26:45 PM#10
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

I think you've been pretty clear at driving home the premise that you're the "One True MMORPGer" and that anyone who races in a comfy seat isn't actually racing even though they're racing.

Your views on WOW grouping are pretty outdated, as all of my fastest leveling (and best-geared-while-leveling) characters predominantly group.  In fact my fastest levelled character spent like 95% of his time grouping.

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3953

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

12/16/11 6:59:39 PM#11
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

I think you've been pretty clear at driving home the premise that you're the "One True MMORPGer" and that anyone who races in a comfy seat isn't actually racing even though they're racing.

Your views on WOW grouping are pretty outdated, as all of my fastest leveling (and best-geared-while-leveling) characters predominantly group.  In fact my fastest levelled character spent like 95% of his time grouping.

What part of playing EQ wasn't about leveling or getting the best gear don't you understand? You're so hung up on getting to endgame as fast as possible with the best gear possible you are totally missing the points trying to be made in this thread.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/16/11 9:41:33 PM#12
Originally posted by Brenelael

What part of playing EQ wasn't about leveling or getting the best gear don't you understand? You're so hung up on getting to endgame as fast as possible with the best gear possible you are totally missing the points trying to be made in this thread.

Wow, where'd that come from?

The only thing I'm in a rush to get to is gameplay.  I don't care about endgame.  Heck most of my WOW over the last few years has been restarting the leveling process so I get more variety to my continual grouping (instead of playing only the endgame dungeons.)

The MMORPGs which chop out the wastes of time are the ones doing the best, so clearly most others seem to agree that the purpose of games is entertainment (gameplay, interesting decision-making.)

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

12/16/11 10:44:32 PM#13
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Originally posted by Axehilt
Except that what you're describing -- done to a FPS -- completely undermines the core skill involved.  More importantly, it undermines the core skills that players find enjoyable. WOW on the other hand didn't undermine the core skill involved, and actually cut out several fatty deadweight systems which players didn't find enjoyable.

The oldschool MMORPGers (like the OP's post) lament the loss of these fatty systems, when really the better feedback they could give would be how to add more depth to gameplay through tweaks to the existing system, or new systems.

Good game design is about providing interesting decisions.  Timesinks and Tediums are the worst forms of "challenge" (if you stretch the definition enough to even call them that) because they're not interesting decisions.  They're just inefficient interfaces and big wastes of time.

You are missing the point.  The point was that the "fatty systems" which gamers find "unfun" are only unfun to people who were not MMO gamers.  I'll give you an easy to understand example.  Race cars.  The seats are uncomfortable, they are loud due to no sound dampening materials, its hot, the suspension is harsh, etc.  This is all done to save weight and increase performance.  But, people who like racing are into this, they wouldnt trade the performance loss for a more comfortable seat, for example.  WOW is the equivalent of bringing races to the masses by going to people who aren't racers, and going "hey, wanna try racing" and then strapping them into a "race car" that has nice thick padded seats, and sound dampening so they dont have to listen to the engine, etc, and a soft, compliant suspension so they're not jarred when they're driving.  Those people are then convinced by blizzard and subsequently convincing themselves that they are now racing enthusiasts.  Guess what, they're not.

The thing that people don't understand is that there is a huge difference between what EQ did and true timesinks.  Blizzard has plenty of true timesinks in WOW.  Remember those insane faction grinds just so you could get 1 item from 1 faction that was really nice?  Remember how there was 1 or 2 caves which had very few spawns that you could kill for said faction?  Has anybody forgotten about Archaeology?  That was such a blatant slap in the face timesink it wasnt even funny.

You look at other games like FFXI which had timesinks in the form of making everything slow.  Running was slow, attacks were slow, etc.

EQ definitely had some timesinks but it was no worse than anything out today.  See the difference is in the days of EQ, the idea of a "end game" didnt exist, that term wasnt coined until long after it released.  Now, MMOs aren't about the journey, they're about getting to this supposed "end game", and leveling is looked at as this barrier you have to get through before you can play the "real game". 

In EQ you didnt look at it that way, because of the fact that leveling did take so long, you didnt mind spending a couple hours to go do some dungeon runs, or to go explore that area which is way higher level than you. Getting to that new outside area and being able to go into that new dungeon was exciting and fun.  Everyone thinks people just sat around killing the same 6 mobs in a 50 foot radius for 10 hours a day to get levels.  It wasn't like that.  I remember many times where i spent hours with people exploring a dungeon, trying to find boss mobs and such, where i didnt even look at the XP bar but maybe one or twice.  Why, because i was busy having fun, i didnt care about how long it took to level.  I had plenty to do.

In WOW and modern MMO's, you're basically an idiot for doing anything outside of leveling because your options are A. Spend 2 hours questing and make 3-5 levels, or B. Go do a dungeon run, get an item that you're going to outlevel in 3 hours, and realize you were better off just spending that 3 hours "leveling".  EQ was smart because it made your main method of getting XP and getting Items one and the same.  This in turn promoted grouping, which made you have to interact with other people, which created a real community.

Now, again, im not saying EQ was perfect.  There were some insanely dumb things.  The ability to have your corpse dissapear and lose ALL of your items for example, was dumb.  Being able to delevel from experience loss, was dumb.  Ultimately having a lack of instancing due to technology at the time, created situations where dungeons could support 4-6 groups at a time, but due to no instancing, people ended up making lists and you many times had to wait to get into a solid XP group.  Again, that was a technical limitation of the times so it cant be viewed as a design flaw.

Anyways, I just wanted to respond, i wont waste a lot of time as ive already said my piece.

 

A man/woman of my own heart. Agree.

 

But sadly you just wasted 20 minutes, or however long it too you to write this, trying to explain anything to Axehilt and many others here. They just don't get it, or don't want to get it because it isn't what THEY want. They don't care if the genre is turning for the worse and away from what originally got it going. They didn't start playing them when they first started, and as long as it entertains them for what they are now (Extended version of single player console RPG's that just HAPPEN to have other players around that are basically tons of NPC's to the individual player), they are happy. Sadly, majority DOES rules because money is the root of all evil, and these non-MMO gamers, that think they are MMORPG gamers now after playing WoW, are the majority. Thanks Blizzard.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

12/16/11 11:06:08 PM#14
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Brenelael

What part of playing EQ wasn't about leveling or getting the best gear don't you understand? You're so hung up on getting to endgame as fast as possible with the best gear possible you are totally missing the points trying to be made in this thread.

Wow, where'd that come from?

The only thing I'm in a rush to get to is gameplay.  I don't care about endgame.  Heck most of my WOW over the last few years has been restarting the leveling process so I get more variety to my continual grouping (instead of playing only the endgame dungeons.)

The MMORPGs which chop out the wastes of time are the ones doing the best, so clearly most others seem to agree that the purpose of games is entertainment (gameplay, interesting decision-making.)

Yep...I am convinced WoW is the only MMORPG you have ever played. You simply fail to understand not everything in MMORPG's revolves around "Constant" gameplay. But console games do! *hint hint*

Downtime can be a good thing in MMORPG's for those that play them as they were meant in the beginning. For COMMUNITY interaction, to be able to get a drink, somethign to snack on, use the bathroom, etc, etc.

And LOL at interesting decision making (Modern MMO's)...like what?

Something like..."Do I do the quest to kill 10 rats for an already outdated weapon (Because I can get 10 levels in an hour), or the quest to deliver an urgent message of impending attack to town Whateverthename in the time limit..that is marked with a BIG yellow dot on my map" making it uninteresting and/or exciting and of no challenge what so ever.

 

At least back in the day if you were given quests, they were vague. So it gave somewhat of a hint, but you had to think and actually explore to find things. Map GPS in today's MMO's make it boring and just a grind.

There is little to no interesting decision making in today's MMO's. About your only decision making is..."when I reach cap in a month or less from just solo play, what Big elitist Guild do I want to join where I will be just a number in the crowd but can get the big shinies". It's a joke, and so are you.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

12/16/11 11:15:19 PM#15
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 

I think it's pretty clear that you either havent played EQ, or that you are making the mistake of judging games by modern standards as opposed to the standards at the time of release (I.E. The New > Old fallacy).  EQ came out in 1999, most of the top games of the year were not even 3d games. For its time EQ had excellent graphics, excellent and polished code (most MMO's have lag issues to this day, EQ1 ran flawlessly on dialup modems), and it had a far less buggy release than many MMO's released since, including WOW. Also, you talk about success, EverQuest sold 3.5 million copies of the game, compare that to the vaunted Diablo II (released june of 2000) which sold about 4 million copies. Now, factor in that Diablo II was not 3d, and that EverQuest *required* a 3d card to play, and it gives you an idea of how succesful EQ1 was for its time.

The polish argument is bunk when comparing it to EQ. 

It's not about whether EQ was more polished than any other MMORPG at the time.

It's about EQ's polish vs. the polish of non-MMORPGs at the time.

EQ's look definitely wasn't on par with other games at that time.

Personally my biggest reason for not trying it at the time was during EQ's first couple years I talked with ~20 different people who played it and it felt like each person I talked to brought up a completely new reason the game's gameplay sounded terrible.

Meanwhile, System Shock 2, AOE2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Diablo 2, and SC:Brood War were providing extremely high quality gameplay during those same years (not to mention BG 1 and 2, for the RPG crowd.)

I can't make the direct comparison because I never gave EQ a try, but it definitely sounded like most of the fun was hidden behind obtuse UIs, timesinks, and tedium compared with games released at the same time which let players quickly have a lot of fun.

To a degree it's the nature of the beast.  Spreading your dev hours over 20 hours of bread is obviously going to be thicker than spread those same hours over 2000 hours of bread. 

THIS post shows me you are an impatient player who wants entertained in your way 24/7. And are the type who wants everything to change for YOU and want everyone to see it your way as being best...regardless of what it does to the genre...just like your God Blizzard does.

Comparing non-MMORPG's to MMORPG's....you are ridiculous. 

What part of "different genre's" do you NOT understand. Again, want quick gameplay and fun? Go play console games...where such features were meant for and quit being player 875827589247 trying to change a different genre other people enjoy into what YOU want.

 

Seriously...are you the gaming industies most slick troller? Or are you really this dense?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/17/11 12:26:17 AM#16
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Yep...I am convinced WoW is the only MMORPG you have ever played. You simply fail to understand not everything in MMORPG's revolves around "Constant" gameplay. But console games do! *hint hint*

Downtime can be a good thing in MMORPG's for those that play them as they were meant in the beginning. For COMMUNITY interaction, to be able to get a drink, somethign to snack on, use the bathroom, etc, etc.

And LOL at interesting decision making (Modern MMO's)...like what?

Something like..."Do I do the quest to kill 10 rats for an already outdated weapon (Because I can get 10 levels in an hour), or the quest to deliver an urgent message of impending attack to town Whateverthename in the time limit..that is marked with a BIG yellow dot on my map" making it uninteresting and/or exciting and of no challenge what so ever. 

At least back in the day if you were given quests, they were vague. So it gave somewhat of a hint, but you had to think and actually explore to find things. Map GPS in today's MMO's make it boring and just a grind.

I've played tons of MMORPGs, but only really enjoyed the few which focus on gameplay.

Your repeated reference to games as "console games" implies that you never played any PC games except MMORPGs, because PC games have always focused on gameplay too (they're games, it's kinda the point.)

I understand a niche likes world simulations.  But what I do constantly is point out the obvious reality of the situation: most people strongly prefer games over world simulations.

The real problem is that I think a ton of the world sim lovers would actually enjoy a gameplay-focused sandbox game done right.  But instead of making suggestions to take the genre in that direction, they make suggestions to return to mechanics which obviously failed in the past.

The interesting decisions in MMORPGs are in the moment to moment gameplay, reacting to the shifting needs of combat, and optimizing things to be as efficient as possible.  Your character's skillset and rotation are a minigame to optimize, and the mob's abilities are a minigame to optimize against, and while in a group the dynamic actions of your teammates are a force to optimize for too.

These are all interesting decisions which are at the heart of MMORPGs' popularity.  When the decisions are frequent and continuous, players consider that gameplay (ie entertainment; the reason they buy games.)  When the decisions are infrequent, players consider that a waste of time (not the reason they buy games.)

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/17/11 12:33:16 AM#17
Originally posted by Goatgod76

THIS post shows me you are an impatient player who wants entertained in your way 24/7. And are the type who wants everything to change for YOU and want everyone to see it your way as being best...regardless of what it does to the genre...just like your God Blizzard does.

Comparing non-MMORPG's to MMORPG's....you are ridiculous. 

What part of "different genre's" do you NOT understand. Again, want quick gameplay and fun? Go play console games...where such features were meant for and quit being player 875827589247 trying to change a different genre other people enjoy into what YOU want. 

Seriously...are you the gaming industies most slick troller? Or are you really this dense?

The genre has already shifted to meet the demands of a larger audience.  It has happened.  This is reality.  Players want gameplay, not tedium and timesinks.

It's not "impatient" to demand entertainment from a product designed to entertain.  That's what people want.

Why shouldn't they be entertained?  You can't come up with a reason (that anyone would care about) that they shouldn't be entertained.  The inevitable reality is they prefer gameplay, not tedium and timesinks, and this will be reflected more and more in the games which are released and it's not a bad thing in the slightest.

This is reality, guy.  Deal with it.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

12/17/11 12:55:51 AM#18
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Goatgod76

THIS post shows me you are an impatient player who wants entertained in your way 24/7. And are the type who wants everything to change for YOU and want everyone to see it your way as being best...regardless of what it does to the genre...just like your God Blizzard does.

Comparing non-MMORPG's to MMORPG's....you are ridiculous. 

What part of "different genre's" do you NOT understand. Again, want quick gameplay and fun? Go play console games...where such features were meant for and quit being player 875827589247 trying to change a different genre other people enjoy into what YOU want. 

Seriously...are you the gaming industies most slick troller? Or are you really this dense?

The genre has already shifted to meet the demands of a larger audience.  It has happened.  This is reality.  Players want gameplay, not tedium and timesinks.

It's not "impatient" to demand entertainment from a product designed to entertain.  That's what people want.

Why shouldn't they be entertained?  You can't come up with a reason (that anyone would care about) that they shouldn't be entertained.  The inevitable reality is they prefer gameplay, not tedium and timesinks, and this will be reflected more and more in the games which are released and it's not a bad thing in the slightest.

This is reality, guy.  Deal with it.

I play all kinds of games. EMPIRE: Total War (RTS), PAYDAY: The Heist (FPS), Cities XL (SIM), Skyrim (RPG)...and so on and so on. The difference between me and you is, I know the differences between the genre's. HOW they function, and how they are meant to entertain and keep the players attention....you apprently do not. You seem to think they are all suppose to have infinite and instant fun non-stop. Well...let me let you in on a little secret....they all do, just in different ways, hence, why they are different genre's...to appeal to a certain audiences. All MMORPG's have timesinks...some just disguise them better than others. Even your precious WoW.

I understand what you mean by game play so you can quit trying to drive that point home. Where you are off with it is stated above. MMORPG's have only gone the route they have because of fanboys of WoW such as you. Whine and spam to be heard and change one genre to another selfishly to meet your needs....who care about those that have kept it going so you could even experience them. As long as it becomes more like whatever genre you came from (Betting console gaming) you don't care what else happens.

BTW...I am not reffering to ALL games as "console games", just to the fact that people like you are trying to change MMORPG's into console games...in some instances already have (See WoW and nearly any MMO since).

Anyways, I am done wasting breath on you, because you will never get it. Maybe had you given EQ a chance instead of being shallow and ignorant and just going on what others said you could see what they were, and the bucket of crap they have become, and understand what sets them apart from all other genre's.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3187

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/17/11 3:53:37 AM#19

A good write-up, Hrmnir. It voiced (wrote) many of my own thoughts.

I quit playing EQ, though, because I HAD to depend on others for my own game play beyond level 15-20. I never understood why people thought "forced grouping" meant "social interaction." I personally interacted MORE out of a group than in a group. I shouldn't open the can of worms of the "What does MMO mean?" argument, but there I did. There are thousands of people in an airport, but not everyone is taking the same flight. Even if there are others on the same flight as I am, I don't HAVE to interact with them in order to get to my destination. It is more fun if I DO interact with them, but I don't HAVE to. I am still able to say "Hi!" if I want, or simply converse if I feel like it to anyone in the airport with me, but I don't HAVE to.

The reason I think MMOs have failed to bring me into their fold lately is the players. You hit it on the head there. For me, there is no end game. I despise raiding and suck at PvP. For me, end game means the old fashioned "retire and re-roll" concept. I see a lot of posts from people who seem to be FPS cross overs ("Moar better combat and gear!") and SPRPGs ("Make ME the star of the story!").

I am not a gear grinder, I am a character builder/developer. There are many things that EQ did that I enjoyed, be it solo or in a group. It kept me playing for 3-4 years even though I had only ONE character get above 20th level (by joining a guild and getting to level 37). There was just so much to do besides gaining levels, but eventually, even that got old without being able to level up on my own terms. I rolled many characters with different race/class combos. I tried all kinds of crafting. I did beginning armor quests over and over, because I could do them solo and they were fun. I explored, even in places I had no business being in :)

It seems that now-a-days, games cater to the players (and there are millions of them) who race to "end-game" and forget the fun that is "the journey". I cannot blame game companies for trying to cash in on these new players and their play style. It amazes me at how fast games now HAVE to add "end game content" as opposed to the many other areas they could work on. And it is futile. That new content lasts maybe a month and then they have to give more "end game content" to please the masses. The rest of the game (the other 90%) suffers because of it, but it is what most players today desire.

I agree that it is the players and not the games that I find lacking in MMOs today. The MMOs cater to what the majority of players want.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

12/17/11 4:00:43 AM#20
Originally posted by Goatgod76

I play all kinds of games. EMPIRE: Total War (RTS), PAYDAY: The Heist (FPS), Cities XL (SIM), Skyrim (RPG)...and so on and so on. The difference between me and you is, I know the differences between the genre's. HOW they function, and how they are meant to entertain and keep the players attention....you apprently do not. You seem to think they are all suppose to have infinite and instant fun non-stop. Well...let me let you in on a little secret....they all do, just in different ways, hence, why they are different genre's...to appeal to a certain audiences. All MMORPG's have timesinks...some just disguise them better than others. Even your precious WoW.

I understand what you mean by game play so you can quit trying to drive that point home. Where you are off with it is stated above. MMORPG's have only gone the route they have because of fanboys of WoW such as you. Whine and spam to be heard and change one genre to another selfishly to meet your needs....who care about those that have kept it going so you could even experience them. As long as it becomes more like whatever genre you came from (Betting console gaming) you don't care what else happens.

I am done wasting breath on you, because you will never get it. Maybe had you given EQ a chance instead of being shallow and ignorant and just going on what others said you could see what they were, and the bucket of crap they have become, and understand what sets them apart from all other genre's. Enjoy your hamster wheel MMO's with the rest of the sheep.

The difference between us is I observe reality while you seem to want to impose your sense of entitlement on the genre.

I don't get it?  There's nothing to get.  I observe what people like, with most players enjoying "pure" games (including me) and a niche preferring simulations.  I observe that this inherently influences game design; much like natural selection: good ideas thrive while bad ones die out.  I observe that you have no clue about PC gaming, to use the term "console gaming" with such vitriol, when even back when I played C64 games players preferred games over simulations.  I observe that early MMORPGs had a lot of fatty features, and that later MMORPGs which cut away the fat produced lean, successful games that smashed expectations.

So there's really nothing left to get.

 

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