Originally posted by Akiye

Partly what made Asherson Call so fun atleast way back when was after level 50 you could pretty much level alongside anyone and not hurt xps and still do enough for them to bring you into the grinding groups. Come to think of it I think that was my most social mmo game and there was no such thing as endgame in it.

Exactly. There are other things to play MMORPGs for than big jumps in power. You can have much smaller jumps in power and ability, but still be just as exciting. Much more so if there are other things to play for. But these big power gaps prevent those other things from working.

Being social, just hanging and playing with the same people for as long as you want, is only one aspect (but a very, very important one). There's also:

• The game's economy, as game play. It's not possible to have a real, functioning economy when it's divided into level groups and coin types to such an extreme as current. Currently, if you want to get richer in these games with such power gaps, just level up and start looting bigger coin and items worth the next coin level. There's no economic game play.
• Freedom to explore by choice. You can't do that with these power gaps.
• Freedom to call an area home, and to play that area for as long as you desire. With huge power gaps, you level past an area. Or you can decide to not progress further, but that's yet another limit that shouldn't be there. If you want to play a ranger that knows a huge enchanted forest like few others, knows the trails and places, knows the current status of wondering MOBs and what's changed, where the current dangers are, and hire out as a guide, you can't have huge power gaps that remove the validity of that forest to 90% of the player base.
• Defense of your home area. If those orcs that keep coming down from the mountain become one hit kills and can't harm you, that's not much for game play.

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Originally posted by Amaranthar

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by Amaranthar
Still no sidewalks around here that can look up to the sky?
Look people:

• When 90% of all phases of the game you either can't participate in or you are beyond and it's meaningless to you, then there's a lot of other players who you can't play the game with. On top of that, when your position in this division of the game play, compared to other players that you are currently with, changes...well, then you have to go your separate ways.

 
Now why is this so hard to understand?
 

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What you're suggesting has nothing at all to do with relative power levels and everything to do with how RPG and MMORPG work. Characters progress from weak to strong, from A to Z from beginning to end. That's just how they work. Relative power levels are a side effect, not a cause.

Another aspect of MMORPG is the story line (as weak as it is in some games). The story line has a beginning, middle and an end. Players progress (see paragraph above) through the story line from the beginning to the end. They don't just play at the end or at any random point in the middle because it would eliminate the ability to have a story line.

What you're suggesting as a 'problem' isn't a problem as you've described it. What you're suggesting for a solution would turn any MMORPG you used it on into something like Vindictus with more character development, but less story and no progression.

 

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Heh, and this is why I've given up on MMORPGs. It's a really simple thing to see, and to understand. Yet, both the powers that be and the power gamerz who inhabit the boards can't grasp it, much less see what can be done to change it.
I've tried for years. And so have others. I don't see them around anymore, and I'm giving up the ghost too. And I think many others have and will continue to join us as you all insist on more of the same ol' narrow vision.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Amaranthar

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by Amaranthar
Still no sidewalks around here that can look up to the sky?
Look people:

• When 90% of all phases of the game you either can't participate in or you are beyond and it's meaningless to you, then there's a lot of other players who you can't play the game with. On top of that, when your position in this division of the game play, compared to other players that you are currently with, changes...well, then you have to go your separate ways.

 
Now why is this so hard to understand?
 

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What you're suggesting has nothing at all to do with relative power levels and everything to do with how RPG and MMORPG work. Characters progress from weak to strong, from A to Z from beginning to end. That's just how they work. Relative power levels are a side effect, not a cause.

Another aspect of MMORPG is the story line (as weak as it is in some games). The story line has a beginning, middle and an end. Players progress (see paragraph above) through the story line from the beginning to the end. They don't just play at the end or at any random point in the middle because it would eliminate the ability to have a story line.

What you're suggesting as a 'problem' isn't a problem as you've described it. What you're suggesting for a solution would turn any MMORPG you used it on into something like Vindictus with more character development, but less story and no progression.

 

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Heh, and this is why I've given up on MMORPGs. It's a really simple thing to see, and to understand. Yet, both the powers that be and the power gamerz who inhabit the boards can't grasp it, much less see what can be done to change it.
I've tried for years. And so have others. I don't see them around anymore, and I'm giving up the ghost too. And I think many others have and will continue to join us as you all insist on more of the same ol' narrow vision.

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The only shared 'world' that ever worked was Second Life. I was around for all that VRML cr@p that never worked and all the virtual worlds that never worked too. The problem is that they are boring. Boh-rang.

That progression that's part of the 'narrow vision' is the reason that mmorpg can actually get financing. Without that, they would have literally ceased to exist, or would be nothing but java based worlds like Wurm. There's nothing wrong with Wurm, but you don't see 500,000 players lining up to play it. You also don't see anything close to cutting edge graphics. Anything beyond late 90's or early 2000's era technology require a significant amount of money. That money won't happen without a lot of people paying to play the game, which won't happen without progression.

I think virtual worlds would be cool (with everyone at a relatively even power level), but it's just boring or repetitive and doesn't make enough money to be anything beyond a 'web app'.

 

Let me make sure I understand you correctly here.

Am I to understand that you cannot imagine, under any circumstances, a virtual world that is different than something like Second Life where players are allowed to make anything they want, no matter how outlandish, like flying penises?

Am I to understand that you can't imagine, under any circumstances, a virtual worldly game such as I'm talking about made with the same scale of content due to actually have funding?

Yes, when I used the word "narrow", I think I hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Xthos

You miss how?   How is a cross server, insta LFG dungeon tool, that will pair you with people that aren't even on your server a positive social tool?  In games like EQ, you acted like a jerk, ninja looted something, or were a horrible player, people put the word out.....Now...you get to LFG tool around and be a tool to everyone!

SWG wasn't level based before CU/NGE...It was skill based and a new person could go out with others.

 

Level content is fine, you have tons of other people your level to play with, people make alts...etc....As for WoW references, I don't get em...I only played beta and didn't like it.

To be fair in EQ once you became a known jerk you just joined a raid guild.

Then you got help being a jerk.

The old games had some *horrible* social problems also.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

See, each one of you don't "get it". How many times did you log on and go to a specific place just to meet up with friends to see what you could find to do? To talk about what's happening in the game world?

I have no doubts that each of you can reply with a "yes". But my entire point is that that was not the norm in SWG or any of the other games. At least after the game was established. One of you (sorry, should have made note of your name) made the comment that I must not have played early on. And that is true. I started SWG after a few months of release, but it was before the changes. If players acted that way in the beginning, they didn't anymore by the time I got there. And again, that's my point. The game's design, whether they called it "levels" or not, had the level gaps. Heck, they had levels of mats to go with it. That does not foster "Sandbox", it fosters level grind. And it divides the player base. And that's anti-social for most of the game, whether a few of you played socially or not. What you did wasn't the norm, because the norm was playing for level gaps, and that was by design.

Sorry but I get the impression that nothing we say will change your opinion and as of your experience with SWG I can only say that either you played the game for 5 minutes or you didn't actually play at all.  You didn't appear to know about wounds or fatigue and mats did not have levels as you put it, they had qualities;  what's more the quality of any particular mat, for instance a ferrous metal did not dictate who could use it.  If you wanted the highest quality mats you either went out prospecting or paid for what someone else was selling; some of the best mats may have been found on the more difficult and dangerous planets but again this is where the social aspect of the game came in.  If you didn't have a guild there were merc guilds out there that you could pay to guard you while you were prospecting or sorting out your harvesters etc.  The best crafters became very well known on the servers and their goods were highly priced and sought after; not because they were higher level but because they took the time to find the best mats and to perfect their skill.  Do you realise that pre cu / nge some classes couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag as they had zero combat skills?  These were the social classes like entertainer etc. and suited what the people who played them wanted from the game, a social hub where they could have fun, be useful and chat away with anyone that came along; what's more social than that?