Originally posted by Wharg0ul
By why should the journey be a mind numbing, painful grind? Bioware have given us a way to enjoy leveling again. This is not a bad thing, no matter how some people want to try to spin it.

whether the journey is good or bad is not the debating aspect at all. Every mmo should have a good leveling experience.

That "spin" your talking about also spins the  other way. The over zealous fans fail to realize theres much more to an MMO than the story. Thats all that I try to convey. So if (I said IF so dont go postal on me) bioware neglected end-game for story they will become the poster child for future games on what not to do. Dont tell me what the devs say its like, lets what until the masses hit end game and see what the overall concensus is.

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Originally posted by BarCrow

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Originally posted by Robsolf

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Originally posted by PukeBucket

Christ.. Now that devs know they just have to read to you to look impressive we'll never get out of this current gen of MMOs.
Seriously, how about loading up a Jedi. Going through the zone for your main quest. Seeing all those caged padawan, but not being able to do anything about it? You know, until you level up once and then happen to take the long way around and see there's a static quest starter that can allow you to eventually help these people?
That's not an enjoyable questing experience.

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Either you were in an old beta, or you don't know what you're talking about.  Clicking on the first cage you see STARTS the quest.

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Um..yep. What ^^^^^ he said. I guess the shitty theme-park design was too deceptively easy . He was too caught up in finding a quest giver  to figure out he could just  click on a cage.

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You guys just walked a different path than I did. I tested it and even reported it as a bug.

Did they fix it then? Well good.

That doesn't change the fact it's the same grind.

Originally posted by Silax
I agree with. Just dont be surprised that every sandbox fan and their mother is going to ask you why you even bother because everyone will be max level in 2 weeks and then quit because its game on rails, carebear city, and most importantly not GW2.

except it isnt any of those things... there is quite a bit of incentive to explore thanks to datacrons increasing your stats and lore points, the game can actually be quite difficult when you enter some of the heroic questing areas, and yeah, it isnt GW2

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
By why should the journey be a mind numbing, painful grind? Bioware have given us a way to enjoy leveling again. This is not a bad thing, no matter how some people want to try to spin it.

I totally agree, Bioware attempted to do something different, and the story is the main thing for the game.   Have you checked out the people live streaming(over 100+) and all of them are using the space bar like it is glued to their thumb to skip the dialogue and that is sad.    The journey should be awesome...every time and not just once.  How many times have you gone to watch the movie Star Wars and fast forwarded tro the end?   What about any movie?  What about reading a book?  I've read some books a few times and I didn't skip to the last chapter.   I doubt very few people are going to even listen to the dialogue, they are going to pick the top button for good and the bottom one for dark side points, space bar the rest and move on.  Todays gamers are about what the end game holds...and currently SW:ToR's end game is sorely lacking.  In a year this game will be a decent game if Bioware keeps to their word.   I can actually see this game actually having more than 500k players in  year(or more) but only if the end game is sufficient to hold a players attention.    Other than PvP instances and Raids - what else is there for a player to do really?  Crafting is limited right now.   There is not much in the way of achievements.  There is no grinding to special perks and guild building tools are less than stellar in the game right now.  The key to retention is having more for players to do past the end game.   In time SW:ToR might have it...right now I do not see it.

Originally posted by Silax
I agree with. Just dont be surprised that every sandbox fan and their mother is going to ask you why you even bother because everyone will be max level in 2 weeks and then quit because its game on rails, carebear city, and most importantly not GW2.

I'm a sandbox fan. I died a little inside when they announced all that time ago that it wasn't a spiritual successor to SWG, and was 'just anotther Themepark.'

But fair play, it was entertaining for a Themepark, and I did give a shit about my character. 

Plus I like that the Trooper feels quite... nukey right from start, and that you get a seriously fun grenade attack soon after. 

So yeah, this Sandbox fan has pre-ordered and will probably throw a month or two of subs in after the free month as well.

I seriously long for a really, really good Sandbox, but I'll appreciate a well-made product of a different style in the meantime.

I view it as-

Reading a boring book is a grind.

Reading a good book is a joy.

Either way, to the cynical person, you are still just reading.

It's all important, from the first quest to the last PVP capture. I think everyone is at least slightly aware of this. MMO's need hooks, and it will be based on individual circumstance and/or preference whether or not TOR has those hooks. I'm looking forward to the journey, then what? Then I have my guild, alliances as well as enemies to provide fun, then it's up to Bioware to deliver on their words, new PVP options, new content, etc... Will they? Who knows...

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
By why should the journey be a mind numbing, painful grind? Bioware have given us a way to enjoy leveling again. This is not a bad thing, no matter how some people want to try to spin it.

I totally agree, Bioware attempted to do something different, and the story is the main thing for the game.   Have you checked out the people live streaming(over 100+) and all of them are using the space bar like it is glued to their thumb to skip the dialogue and that is sad.    The journey should be awesome...every time and not just once.  How many times have you gone to watch the movie Star Wars and fast forwarded tro the end?   What about any movie?  What about reading a book?  I've read some books a few times and I didn't skip to the last chapter.   I doubt very few people are going to even listen to the dialogue, they are going to pick the top button for good and the bottom one for dark side points, space bar the rest and move on.  Todays gamers are about what the end game holds...and currently SW:ToR's end game is sorely lacking.  In a year this game will be a decent game if Bioware keeps to their word.   I can actually see this game actually having more than 500k players in  year(or more) but only if the end game is sufficient to hold a players attention.    Other than PvP instances and Raids - what else is there for a player to do really?  Crafting is limited right now.   There is not much in the way of achievements.  There is no grinding to special perks and guild building tools are less than stellar in the game right now.  The key to retention is having more for players to do past the end game.   In time SW:ToR might have it...right now I do not see it.

You must also be aware that these people that you have been watching on live streaming most likely are the type that just grind to the end without ever paying much attention to detail. Most likely if someone is pre-ordering the day pre-orders are announced they are that kind of person or a SERIOUS star wars fan, which I'm sure some of them are. Either way these are your classic race to the end hard-core players. I think as more of the casual gamers come in then you will see people actually listening to what NPCs have to say and really soaking in the game. And I am just curious how much experience you have with the end game in SWTOR? Also if I heard correctly I believe there is a major content patch in the works for a month after release, so maybe this will have some more content. Either way, I can almost guarantee everyones knowledge of the game here is rather limited because most people were only exposed to beta which actually didn't have all the content released anyways.

Anyways, no one here really knows for a fact what the end game has in store, or really much about many of the features. We've all gotten a good taste, but we haven't actually sat down to eat the meal that is SW:ToR. So lets just wait until everyone's eaten to really start nit picking at end game content and other features for that matter. 

I agree. Questing in TOR is great. I'm more worried about what happens when the questing is over.

"Know that epic leveling experience you just got done with?"

"Yeah. It rocked!"

"Sucks to be you because now you get to go grind currency to run on the gear treadmill."

Its all about the journey for me. What the hell do you do at the so called "End Game" of any mmo? run the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over.... so you can have character progression (more shinies) so you can run the next raid over and over and over.... run the same battlegrounds over and over and over.... get more uber loot.... rinse repeat

The way some people think boggles my mind. Rush to cap skip or ignore all the content... might as well play MW3 or 4 or 5 or 6... you get the same kind of progression. 

I'll have a great time enjoying the content of SWTOR. The best I have experianced so far, in any MMORPG.  When I get to lvl cap and there is nothing to do but repeat the same content over and over and over...  I'll quit just like every other mmo ever created.

I'm an old school gamer from the very first pong and text rpg's to today. My definiton of "End Game" is end of the f%$#*&  game. Hamster wheels FTW, you self called "hard core's" can have at em.

It's all about the journey, end game sucks. Waiting on an MMORPG where the journey never ends and I dont have to wait 6 months to a year for a new dungeon or raid at $15 a month or $40 for an expansion pack that lasts a week till you have jump back on that hamster wheel.

Originally posted by BadSpock

I view it as-

Reading a boring book is a grind.

Reading a good book is a joy.

Either way, to the cynical person, you are still just reading.

 

Well said, Spock.

It's very similar to depression; apart from not being able to see positive aspects, it actually makes the world grey (in one's perception, compared to people with a normal outlook).

Originally posted by fundayz

What about those of us that don't really care about the story but the gameplay? is it significantly better/different from MMO's I already own that I should fork out the $60 bucks?

I mean I did that for Rift and that turned out to have pretty much the same gameplay as WoW, so that was a waste of money....

I would probably say that the game "might' not be for you.

If one isn't going to enjoy what makes SWToR different then it might not be a good use of money.

Yeah its a great MMO yet they did nothing new. Just a little slight of hand and people are like WOW AWESOME new mmo!

Its nothing more then a SOLO game. Get quest and look down at map see where to go and follow the path. Try to go around.. try to wonder around.  You just follow the person infront of you.. look for those NPC's you know the ones just standing there that can see 100y away at all the other npc's just standing there. Take out voices.. whats new here?

Yes thats it .. its like every other mmo. They just tried to blind you so to speak to not see nothing is different. 

This mmo is made for kids... where do I have to go? Look at map.. this is hard how? 

Relax its just text. Just saying nothing new here. They did a awesome job on taking a quest (STORY) yet you sill kill 1-20 of this or that. Its the follow the path that kills it for me. Yes all mmos have this but some are huge and you can go anywhere. Here until you get past 25 does it start to open up but still you can never just wonder around and explore. Your told where to go, how to get there, how to get back and it NEVER changes. And people are like OMG this is best MMO! 

We are sheep. Take what every they feed you and never expect anything new.

Originally posted by PukeBucket

 

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Originally posted by BarCrow

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Originally posted by Robsolf

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Originally posted by PukeBucket

Christ.. Now that devs know they just have to read to you to look impressive we'll never get out of this current gen of MMOs.
Seriously, how about loading up a Jedi. Going through the zone for your main quest. Seeing all those caged padawan, but not being able to do anything about it? You know, until you level up once and then happen to take the long way around and see there's a static quest starter that can allow you to eventually help these people?
That's not an enjoyable questing experience.

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Either you were in an old beta, or you don't know what you're talking about.  Clicking on the first cage you see STARTS the quest.

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Um..yep. What ^^^^^ he said. I guess the shitty theme-park design was too deceptively easy . He was too caught up in finding a quest giver  to figure out he could just  click on a cage.

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You guys just walked a different path than I did. I tested it and even reported it as a bug.

Did they fix it then? Well good.

That doesn't change the fact it's the same grind.

Just to clarify.  If you clicked on ANY cage that had a prisoner, it would start the quest.

Far as what is and isn't a grind, to each their own.

Originally posted by laserit

Its all about the journey for me. What the hell do you do at the so called "End Game" of any mmo? run the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over.... so you can have character progression (more shinies) so you can run the next raid over and over and over.... run the same battlegrounds over and over and over.... get more uber loot.... rinse repeat

The way some people think boggles my mind. Rush to cap skip or ignore all the content... might as well play MW3 or 4 or 5 or 6... you get the same kind of progression. 

I'll have a great time enjoying the content of SWTOR. The best I have experianced so far, in any MMORPG.  When I get to lvl cap and there is nothing to do but repeat the same content over and over and over...  I'll quit just like every other mmo ever created.

I'm an old school gamer from the very first pong and text rpg's to today. My definiton of "End Game" is end of the f%$#*&  game. Hamster wheels FTW, you self called "hard core's" can have at em.

It's all about the journey, end game sucks. Waiting on an MMORPG where the journey never ends and I dont have to wait 6 months to a year for a new dungeon or raid at $15 a month or $40 for an expansion pack that lasts a week till you have jump back on that hamster wheel.

 

IMO, this sums it up entirely.

I have enjoyed an end game experience or two for, at most, a few weeks. But if the game isn't worth rolling an alt to experience it all over again (Rift comes to mind). It's time to cancel sub for the forseeable future

Originally posted by laserit

Its all about the journey for me. What the hell do you do at the so called "End Game" of any mmo? run the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over.... so you can have character progression (more shinies) so you can run the next raid over and over and over.... run the same battlegrounds over and over and over.... get more uber loot.... rinse repeat

The way some people think boggles my mind. Rush to cap skip or ignore all the content... might as well play MW3 or 4 or 5 or 6... you get the same kind of progression. 

I'll have a great time enjoying the content of SWTOR. The best I have experianced so far, in any MMORPG.  When I get to lvl cap and there is nothing to do but repeat the same content over and over and over...  I'll quit just like every other mmo ever created.

I'm an old school gamer from the very first pong and text rpg's to today. My definiton of "End Game" is end of the f%$#*&  game. Hamster wheels FTW, you self called "hard core's" can have at em.

It's all about the journey, end game sucks. Waiting on an MMORPG where the journey never ends and I dont have to wait 6 months to a year for a new dungeon or raid at $15 a month or $40 for an expansion pack that lasts a week till you have jump back on that hamster wheel.

 THIS^^

SWTOR is just awsome, you shouldnt be pointing out what is good what is bad that doesnt matter at all, if that was the case WOW wouldnt have been the best until now :D . Other mmo's are better then WOW at this and that and better then SWTOR, but they arent either one of this MMO's and that is a deal breaker, SWTOR is awsome because ... it is nothing else it just feels insanly immersive dont know dont care if it as new features, it rules.

When I was in beta, I did every quest I could find. I found that I outleveled the content and just facerolled everything. This time around I am strictly doing class quests and the automatic bonus quests that pop up while you're running around. I'm having a lot more fun. The content is more challenging since I'm actually undergeared and underlevelled, and the class story is more fluid since I'm not constantly taking breaks from it doing fetch quests. All in all, its one of the best quest experiences I've had in an mmo.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
By why should the journey be a mind numbing, painful grind? Bioware have given us a way to enjoy leveling again. This is not a bad thing, no matter how some people want to try to spin it.

I agree 100%.

All games have quests.  BioWare makes them fun.

And what do I do when the quests run out?  I serously doubt that will ever happen... so long as this game doesn't completely tank, I expect that BioWare will continuously add content.  So even when a typical gamer starts to run out of content (if that's even possible, given that every class has 200 hours of story) there will be more added... and expansions... etc.

I for one expect to be playing SW:TOR for a very long time.  I'm not a 40-hour-per-week gamer, so I won't consume content nearly as quickly as they churn it out, and I truly enjoy cinematic storylines, the gameplay, etc.