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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sandbox vs Themepark Discussion Thread

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470 posts found
  GeminiStatic

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/05/10
Posts: 187

12/02/11 11:28:46 PM#141
Originally posted by prodigaL_son

 

Is there any game out there that is an MMO that plays like Mount and Blade?  If there isn't why the heck havent developers tries to make it?

 

I hear  Vindictus or whatever is kinda like that

  Madimorga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

12/08/11 2:16:47 PM#142

Typical themepark:  Boring and never ending grind for levels and gear.

 

Typical Sandbox:  Boring and never ending horde of 14 year old gankers and not much else to do besides fight them off.

 

Keyword:  Typical.

 

A solid hybrid with safe zones, rich housing and crafting options, and optional quests with good storyline could hold my attention, but typical MMOs now bore me silly within hours.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  RanDomino

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/10/11
Posts: 1

12/10/11 1:46:43 PM#143

TLDR version: Scripting is lame, Emergence ftw.

I just made a free EQ2 account and uninstalled within a couple hours.  The reason was pretty clear-cut: I was on the "Golden Path," their (I am not kidding) name for a 'quest track' for players to follow from level 1 all the way to the endgame- first you get the tutorial "kill a wolf and bring be its hide so you learn how to use a sword and walk around" quests, then the "there are orcs attacking, kill some raiders and then do infiltration quests of their base camp followed by sabotage, assassination of officers/shamans, and finally taking down the General" quests, then the "kill 20 of the same thing that are standing in a 200-foot wide area right over there (and nowhere else in the entire world) and bring me their right femur, presumedly leaving the rest of the body to rot oh nevermind it just vanished" quests... And then you get a Reward and a quest to go talk to Genericus McPathcontinuer in the next area over and you get to do it all over again except everything has a different skin and different irrelevant backstory to ignore.  And I felt like I was stuck on the "Golden Path," because every quest lead directly into another level-appropriate quest on a linear storyline in which success was a) guaranteed and b) irrelevant to the world.

Oh and you can be 20 ft from a hostile mob who's looking right at you and they just ignore you.  Totally immersive dawg.

If this is what themepark MMOs are like, I want nothing to do with them.  You get the spectacle of an RPG but it has the depth of a kiddy pool (maybe that would be a better name for them, even- "hey, it has water, it's just like the ocean.  Here's a picture of a shark, ooh, wow, exotic!").

This was really disappointing in light of how much I liked the original Everquest, which I played for a few months around 2000-2001 (I got bored of grinding, which took fooooorrrrrreeeeeevvvvvvveeeeeerrrr).  For me the best part of EQ1 wasn't the fighting or the questing, but the world.  I don't mean PVE as in "kill AI-controlled mobs" but just traveling around and taking it all in.  I ran from Qeynos to Freeport when I was in the upper-teens levels, just because I was tired of Blackburrow.  That was a massive quest in itself, which no NPC assigned and for which I received no XP or phat lewts.  I canoed around Lake Rathe for HOURS.  I went to Paineel and Felwithe just to look at the architecture.  I looked up what mobs listed in the EQ Beastiary site didn't have pictures (and were in zones where I wouldn't immediately die) just to take pictures of them.  Wildlife photography as a quest, again with no quantified in-game reward!  I tried to do this one quest where there were ten pieces of a staff scattered around the world- none dropped as loot; just sitting on the ground, theoretically retrievable without any combat.  One was on a sunken ship with zombie pirates; one was on an ancient tower surrounded by spectres, on an island in an oasis in a desert (solution to both: "Invisibility to Undead" spell), etc.  Epic.

One of my favorite games is Dwarf Fortress, for a similar reason- it's not that you can 'do anything' (which would mean there is nothing to do, because there would be no direction), but that the gameplay is emergent rather than scripted.  Goblin attack?  Okay; you can rush out to fight them head-on; or you can set up a flanking attack; or you can have a bunch of traps in your entryway; or you can engineer a cave-in on them; or you can funnel them near some monsters that will attack them; or... It's not that you can do anything; it's that you have an incredible amount of freedom over how to respond to what events do occur.  The same goes for Nethack, although there's more direction there because of the stated goal (descend, find Amulet, ascend).  A lot of you sandbox RPG-lovers might like Notrium, too. 

The key to this kind of game is the 'physics' engine.  In DF you have what are basically 'atoms,' single blocks of stone or other materials which can be combined in intuitive ways, like LEGOs.  In Nethack it's similar.  In Everquest, the world at least seemed to make sense from a physics and economics perspective; that went completely out the window in EQ2 when I watched hundreds of orcs spawn three at a time, run up a beach, and get slaughtered by high-level dwarves- and their base camp was a barren glacier with about six tents.  Where are they all coming from?? It doesn't make any sense!

I don't need every square inch to have content!  Some of my favorite parts of games are massive barren wastelands, because I can BELIEVE that.  I don't know if it was in this thread or the one about MMO world size comparisons, but someone mentioned that SWG has huge empty spaces on most planets.  Great!  A hundred square miles with one dungeon, twenty miles from the nearest town, generated algorithmically rather than hand-drawn, stick in a few hand-made features, put in some wildlife that behaves realistically, and we're there.  If there's a feature for player-added content like buildings or terrain modification, awesome, even better, but that's not the real difference between sandbox and theme park MMOs imo.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6634

12/12/11 12:36:27 AM#144

Why are so many posters confused about what a sand box game is?  Anyone who has played a sandbox game knows that having a class/level system immediately disqualifies the game from being called a sandbox.

Even the staff writers on MMORPG are confused as seen by Adam Tingle's article on Fallen Earth.  It has a class/level system hence by definition cannot be a sandbox.  Adam, you should know better.

I noticed people calling Wakfu a sandbox. Come on, it has a class level system, hence in no way shape or form is it a sandbox.

  CavemanBE

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 38

12/12/11 10:34:28 AM#145

.

  Xzen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

12/12/11 10:39:15 AM#146
Originally posted by Ozmodan

Why are so many posters confused about what a sand box game is?  Anyone who has played a sandbox game knows that having a class/level system immediately disqualifies the game from being called a sandbox.

Even the staff writers on MMORPG are confused as seen by Adam Tingle's article on Fallen Earth.  It has a class/level system hence by definition cannot be a sandbox.  Adam, you should know better.

I noticed people calling Wakfu a sandbox. Come on, it has a class level system, hence in no way shape or form is it a sandbox.

UO was my first mmorpg. Leveling and class systems do not disqualify a game from being a sandbox. The lack of tools or ability for a player to have an impact on the game world, like building houses and towns in the open world and other player created content, does. While the skill system is ideal and gives the players another layer of freedom it is not a requirement.

  Telil

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 269

12/12/11 10:45:56 AM#147

Persoanally.i think the level/skill debate should end. neither make a sandbox.

Now if you level from 1 to 2, then have points to spend on skills/stats then that to me is sandbox. You are given the tools ( lik a bucket and spade ) and left to do what you want with it.

No quest hubs should be in a sandbox. there should be quests about but bot ones that send you to the next apropriate level area but more like the EQ quest a previous poster explained....searching for ground drops all over the world. Quests that are more for exploration than finding the right mobs to fight.

A sandbox with me has to have lots of content, but lots of options too. I should be able to Skill/level in whatever way i choose! be it fighting mobs or my training partner, it's up to me.

I should be able to explore, like i did in EQ! go to a much higher level area and be careful.

I need secrets to find out and discover that will not be in a manual. i need lore to give me background about my world.

Most of all! i need a bucket and spade!

  Xzen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

12/12/11 10:51:19 AM#148
Originally posted by Telil

Persoanally.i think the level/skill debate should end. neither make a sandbox.

Most of all! i need a bucket and spade!

Agreed. The system used to advance your character has no bearing on weather or not an mmorpg is a sandbox or theme park.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6634

12/19/11 5:24:03 PM#149
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Ozmodan

Why are so many posters confused about what a sand box game is?  Anyone who has played a sandbox game knows that having a class/level system immediately disqualifies the game from being called a sandbox.

Even the staff writers on MMORPG are confused as seen by Adam Tingle's article on Fallen Earth.  It has a class/level system hence by definition cannot be a sandbox.  Adam, you should know better.

I noticed people calling Wakfu a sandbox. Come on, it has a class level system, hence in no way shape or form is it a sandbox.

UO was my first mmorpg. Leveling and class systems do not disqualify a game from being a sandbox. The lack of tools or ability for a player to have an impact on the game world, like building houses and towns in the open world and other player created content, does. While the skill system is ideal and gives the players another layer of freedom it is not a requirement.

Well sorry I have to disagree with you.  Yeah, you can probably have levels, but you just cannot have a sandbox with classes.  Classes just limit character development far too much, without a skill system, it just cannot be a sandbox in any shape or form.  I just don't know of any game that has classes and is considered a sandbox.

So yes Class systems most certainly disqualify a game from being called a sandbox.  How you can even think otherwise is beyond me.  Calss systems just put your character development into a straight jacket.

  EverSkelly

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/04
Posts: 338

12/19/11 5:51:20 PM#150

One class could have a lot of options to advance.

Let's say you're a wizard. You could specialize in ice magic, fire, shock (electricity), earth damage, death damage, nature damage, wtf damage, long or short range damage, AoE or single target damage, and so on and so on, it's all in developers' imagination.

So i don't think that sandbox should be classless. I can give you an example, in EQ you can have like 10,000 alternate advancement levels, if i'm not mistaken. That's a lot of points to improve your character. 

So again, i don't think classless system is a necessity for a sandbox - you can have classes and thousands of ways to make them different. 

i think classes makes it easier for people to identify themselves with the character.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3289

12/19/11 6:01:57 PM#151

I finally got my head around the differences when discussing in another thread.  One of the key differences is that a themepark has an endgame (obviously) but also it tends to focus on the big 4 activites, PVP,Raiding, instances,battlegrounds.  So for a themepark the development team and game design is focused on say 25% investment in those 4. A sandbox invests across all of the activities with a far more even distribution.  Themepark maximises its top 4 to keep the gameplayer, Sandbox offers lots of smaller actities that combine to keep the gameplayer.

 

Slow travel

Crafting

Fishing

Collecting

Roleplaying

Housing

Politics

Planning

Coaching

Mining

Gathering

Trading

Economics

trying out gear for looks. 

Theorycrafting 

PVP

Battlegrounds

Raiding

Hunting 

Improving skills

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  User Deleted
12/25/11 4:57:42 PM#152

I have been going over this and believe that between Themepark and Sandbox there are mostly what I call in between games or sub families.

The WOW family of games. EQ, EQ1, FF, WOW , LOTR, AOC, WAR ,RIFT, ROM, ALLODS, and TOR are the extreme version of Themepark, gear grinding, Leveled gear, PVE focus, Scripted Raid bosses, light usually badly balanced pvp systems. the world itself is just scenery so constant raid content or new battlegrounds are added to keep sub retention.

Space Sandboxy games. EVE, Black Prophecy, Vendetta online, all space based ship based games usually with huge ammounts of crafting, consisting of large components and ship creation, player run economies ( for the most part) with a limited beginning themepark, forigive me I only played EVE so the other two I can extrapulate by looking at game features on their sites. But all of these game seem to have a sanbox system surrounded by a galactic sized framework of rulesets to keep things organized. So thier fundamentally sandboxes but they have certain things cemented down to keep order in the universe.

Psudo sandbox Faction Wars Sandboxish mmorpgs. Face of Mankind, Anarchy Online, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Darkfall, UO, Planet Calypso, Mortal Online, Entropia. I probably missed a few, also I realize these games are not totally alike but do share some similar game elements. Usually faction based kill fests on top of a psudo Sandbox environment which is usually an excuse to create PVP warzone by the Devs. The differences are varied, full loot, not full loot, some of these games factions effect gameplay. Some are more political, the level of crafting is divergent, or at least the quality and what you can make. But in the end its about endlessly fighting the other faction, usually with guns. 

PVP Themeparks. These arent quite like the wow family of games, their still themeparks but don't focus on endgame, they may have one as a fun thing to do, but it's not really required to enjoy the game or progress in the game. GM or scripted events are common. PVP is what you do for fun most of the time, usually the games are skill and weapon based, but not always with leveled gear or with simple combat upgrades.  Guild Wars, Guild Wars2, MU online, L1, L2, AC, AION, DAOC, Bloodline Champions, Cabal, Rakion. You wouldn't know it since most of the modern games on this list are Asian but they show up in the west from time to time.

Non WOW family PVE themeparks. Gotta give it to these games, PVE focus with varied levels of PVP but not a wow clone really, they must be suicidal. Megaten, Mabinogi, Faunasphere, Furcadia .. Most of these games are kind of funny have odd themes.

Turned Based mmorpgs, turned based combat I have to set these guys apart no matter if their focus is pvp or pve since this is like basically Ogre Battle in an mmorpg. Dofus, Wakfu, Atlantica, Zodiac, Wizard 101, HOMM. Not for everyone but you cant say their just like every other game.

TRUE sandbox Simulation like games. WURM, A Tale in the Desert, Second Life, and others like them, these games usually offer little in the way of character creation, pvp, or pve really. Its about making everything yourself and social interaction/politics. Don't jump into one of these seeking instant gratification however since you will likely spend 12 hours of your real life getting the schmatics to make a pot, doing real life 3d ainimation to pimp out digital cars or clear cutting a forest to build a stone road. 

Coffee shop chat mmo hubs, barely traditional mmorpgs mostly for chatting maybe some RP, Habbo Hotel, IMVU,Oz World, Onverse, Club Cooee.

 

Thats how I break it down in my mind Sandbox and Themepark are thrown around but I see it differently, with multiple genres at a time. Its just that Sandbox and Themepark are convenient labels to throw around. Like Alternative Rock.

  Cembrye

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/12
Posts: 54

1/01/12 4:51:49 PM#153

Sadly, I think it has all become academic.  Economically, the companies that make MMORPGS have all been moving more along the continuum towards making theme park games and will continue to do so. The reasons:

 

- the veteran player gaming population, the kind that played D&D and liked RP, is getting older and has less time to play

- the younger gaming population is more impatient and end-result oriented; they want it and want it now as well

- together, these two trends in the gaming population dominate the market

- theme parks are perfect for generating cheap and quick content to feed the maw of gamers wanting a quick fix

- economic pressures/greed make companies take the road less traveled, just like Hollywood movie making

- the road less travelled means not risking investment on open-ended worlds/sandbox games that appeal to smaller market

I mourn this for the simple reason that this means we may never see the full potential of technologies to make virtual game worlds.

The only ray of sun is the demonstrative appeal of quality single player RPG games like Skyrim.  The single player platform games will continue to raise the bar on virtual worlds and the MMORPGS will probably feel some of this gravitational pull.

One thought on FFA PVP and sandbox worlds.  I am a PVPer and enjoy PVP.  I have defended open world FFA PVP many times and even argued that RP needed PVP to be real RP.  However, with time I have shifted to the realization this is just not possible.  The anonymity of the Internet unleashes too many idiots and the cost in aggravation to other players and to the companies to police the idiots behavior is a negative bar to creation of open world free-choice based games.  I think FFA PVP has to be a sacrifice on the altar if you want to ever deploy sandbox worlds.  At least until someone actually dreams up player justice systems that work.

My two cents.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

1/01/12 5:16:13 PM#154
Originally posted by Cembrye

Sadly, I think it has all become academic.  Economically, the companies that make MMORPGS have all been moving more along the continuum towards making theme park games and will continue to do so. The reasons:

 

- the veteran player gaming population, the kind that played D&D and liked RP, is getting older and has less time to play

- the younger gaming population is more impatient and end-result oriented; they want it and want it now as well

- together, these two trends in the gaming population dominate the market

- theme parks are perfect for generating cheap and quick content to feed the maw of gamers wanting a quick fix

- economic pressures/greed make companies take the road less traveled, just like Hollywood movie making

- the road less travelled means not risking investment on open-ended worlds/sandbox games that appeal to smaller market

I mourn this for the simple reason that this means we may never see the full potential of technologies to make virtual game worlds.

The only ray of sun is the demonstrative appeal of quality single player RPG games like Skyrim.  The single player platform games will continue to raise the bar on virtual worlds and the MMORPGS will probably feel some of this gravitational pull.

One thought on FFA PVP and sandbox worlds.  I am a PVPer and enjoy PVP.  I have defended open world FFA PVP many times and even argued that RP needed PVP to be real RP.  However, with time I have shifted to the realization this is just not possible.  The anonymity of the Internet unleashes too many idiots and the cost in aggravation to other players and to the companies to police the idiots behavior is a negative bar to creation of open world free-choice based games.  I think FFA PVP has to be a sacrifice on the altar if you want to ever deploy sandbox worlds.  At least until someone actually dreams up player justice systems that work.

My two cents.


I totally agree about ffa pvp.

People: The reason we can't have nice things.

  Matt1128Y

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/11
Posts: 30

1/12/12 4:33:36 AM#155

This is sort of a review of SWTOR that I wrote up and posted on the SWTOR general forums, but I think it fits in nicely with the Sandbox vs Themepark discussion.

Let me start off by saying that I do like SWTOR (at least more than any of the other new MMORPGs out there); and I plan on playing it for awhile. I'd give the game a 8.7 out of 10.

So what do I mean by a theme park? I mean game developers, like Bioware and Blizzard, are less interested in crafting virtual worlds and more interested in creating an experience where players can log on, press a button that automatically groups them up with strangers that they'll probably never talk to again, which then teleports them to some destination (a dungeon, battleground, etc.). Granted, the dungeon finder system hasn't found its way to SWTOR yet, but I'm betting it will eventually (and at least part of the community is asking for it). Further, questing in these theme parks constitutes mindlessly following quest indicators followed by reward collection, followed by using quick travel. Rinse and repeat until you're level capped. To make matters worse, when you die in these theme parks, practically nothing happens. In SWTOR, you lose a bit of durability and are given the option to respawn right where you died!

Before I move on, I'll just list some of the ways that the MMORPG genre has improved in an effort to appear less negative: better graphics, better sound, better UIs, smoother controls, less downtime, and less skill/group role overlap between classes. And in the case of SWTOR, voiced dialogue and conversation options.

That being said, I can't believe how far the MMORPG genre has fallen since Everquest (EQ).

---

The thing that bothers me the most about the newer MMORPGs like SWTOR is the abuse of quick travel, quest indicators, instancing, and matchmaking (dungeon fingers, battlegrounds, etc.), as well as the lenient penalties for dying.

Instancing: Back during the golden age of MMORPGs, there was no such thing as "running dungeons," at least not in the way that MMORPG players do now. Running a dungeon in, Everquest for instance, meant running to a dungeon that was actually part of the static world (noninstanced), and then traversing the dungeon--exploring the dungeon--with a group. And while this went on, you'd more than likely run into other adventurers, who may or may not interact with your group in a negative or positive way. I think this is way more interesting than your group being cut off from the rest of the server population and in-game world by being teleported inside an instance of a dungeon. It's almost as though you and your group had fallen asleep and the dungeon is just a dream.

Instancing is especially a problem in SWTOR because of the way the world was constructed. It almost feels like you're on a train or rollercoaster. There are too many invisible barriers and areas that exist to prevent players from leaving a linear predetermined path. The instancing just adds to the claustrophobic and dead (you don't run across enough players) feeling.

Death penalty: Maybe my view on this subject is skewed from playing too much Diablo II Hardcore and Everquest, but I've always liked a good meaty death penalty. Otherwise, what's the point? Playing a MMORPG with a lenient death penalty is like playing a NES game with Game Genie. Some people may like that (I know my brother enjoyed cheating in NES games), but I don't. Good death penalties make rewards and progression all the sweeter. I'm not saying newer MMORPGs like SWTOR should adopt a permanent death system or anything that crazy, but I do think the penalty for dying should sting a little more than mere durability loss. SWTOR is out already, so I don't expect Bioware to change the penalty for dying. But they could create servers with alternate rule sets. Just a thought.

Quick travel: There's nothing wrong with quick travel per se. But there needs to be some restraint. Too much quick travel makes the world feel small and meaningless. Meaningless in that it is treated as merely an obstacle to your next quest rather than a journey. Personally, I'd like to go back to how EQ did things: having to run or ride to your destination! But I'm probably in the minority in this respect--so I'll just say I don't think players should have the option of teleporting to any discovered hub on their local map every 30 minutes. An easy fix for this would be to just increase the cool down for quick travel (the fleet pass is fine).

Quest indicators: Like the quick travel system, I think this is being abused. It's to the point where 90% of the time you don't even have to read (or listen to) quest text. All you need to do is bring up your map and follow the giant pulsating dots and circles (KILL 5 MONKEYS). I think this sort of thing contributes to the mindlessness of current MMORPGs.

Match making: By match making I mean any button that you can press that will automatically group you up with other players, and then teleport you to some destination. I see this as contra to some of the things that MMORPGs are supposed to be about; namely, community and adventuring. Fortunately, Bioware has decided to leave dungeon finder out of the game, for now. Unfortunately, I think it will inevitably make its way into the game in the future.


---


I anticipate a tsunami of WoW fanboys and MMORPGs noobs that will try to set me straight by propagating the lie that WoW is popular because it has a lenient death penalty, dungeon finder, instanced dungeons, and quest indicators. That's wrong.

WoW didn't have any of the above when it was first released save for a lenient death penalty and instanced dungeons. The rest came later.

The reason why WoW is popular is because:

1. It was developed by a popular company.
2. WoW is based on a popular universe.
3. WoW was released during a time when EQ was in its decline, when people were fed up with SOE's antics.
4. Good controls and UI.

WoW is really just a dumbed down version of EQ with better graphics, UI, and controls.
  Palladin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/10
Posts: 434

1/13/12 7:35:03 PM#156

Almost all game(i'm sure there are some I have not seen or heard of) out and being played right now are theme park games. All of the sandbox games i have ever followed failed miserably.

Such as: Shadowbane, Vanguard, Darkfall I'm sure ther eare many more.

Its sad really because they had solid ideas but jsut did not delivery enough to make them work.

 

This is a subject near and dear to my heart and the simple fact is no MMO produced in the past 10 years has done anything unique, extraordinary, innovative. They are all the same except for new, shinier graphics but the basic simple primitive mechanics have not changed and will not change until we the money spenders stop buying crap.

There is only one game I know of that I found truly interesting and it had features like:
1) territory ownership
2) super complex player driven economy.
3) Totally skill based development.
4) complex geopolitical social system
5) highly complex trad skill system
6) complex guild structure and control system
7) complex nation alliance system
8) complex territory control and management system
9) quality endgame player crafted gear
10) best of all there were not character lvls.
11) open world pvp only( no BS instanced canned pvp in arenas and BGs)


This game was designed for the hard core gamer the ones who could form communities, motivate its members and work together as a whole more than individuals. I was never able to find a group of people like this and playing the game solo just didn't work for me and the death penalty was to harsh when playing alone.

If the game I am thinking of( can you gues it) was to ever make the jump to a traditional style mmo it would blow everyone away with its amazing qualities.

AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Radeon 4870

  BCuse

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 140

1/13/12 7:56:49 PM#157

was just wondering do you think fans of sandbox type games have higher expectations or too high expectations from a game?  it seems to me that there is a big enough market for a well made sandbox game but there doesnt seem to be one currently.  i dont think it would be as big as WoW or SWTOR necessarily but should be big enough  to be profitable.  when you read these forums i see so many looking for a good sandbox.  are they just a vocal minority?

  Palladin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/10
Posts: 434

1/13/12 8:12:43 PM#158
Originally posted by Cembrye

Sadly, I think it has all become academic.  Economically, the companies that make MMORPGS have all been moving more along the continuum towards making theme park games and will continue to do so. The reasons:

 

- the veteran player gaming population, the kind that played D&D and liked RP, is getting older and has less time to play

- the younger gaming population is more impatient and end-result oriented; they want it and want it now as well

- together, these two trends in the gaming population dominate the market

- theme parks are perfect for generating cheap and quick content to feed the maw of gamers wanting a quick fix

- economic pressures/greed make companies take the road less traveled, just like Hollywood movie making

- the road less travelled means not risking investment on open-ended worlds/sandbox games that appeal to smaller market

I mourn this for the simple reason that this means we may never see the full potential of technologies to make virtual game worlds.

The only ray of sun is the demonstrative appeal of quality single player RPG games like Skyrim.  The single player platform games will continue to raise the bar on virtual worlds and the MMORPGS will probably feel some of this gravitational pull.

One thought on FFA PVP and sandbox worlds.  I am a PVPer and enjoy PVP.  I have defended open world FFA PVP many times and even argued that RP needed PVP to be real RP.  However, with time I have shifted to the realization this is just not possible.  The anonymity of the Internet unleashes too many idiots and the cost in aggravation to other players and to the companies to police the idiots behavior is a negative bar to creation of open world free-choice based games.  I think FFA PVP has to be a sacrifice on the altar if you want to ever deploy sandbox worlds.  At least until someone actually dreams up player justice systems that work.

My two cents.

older...OLDER ...sonnie just cause I was playing D&D(original) before you wus a sparckle in your daddies eye does not make me OLD even if i do resemble that remark.

AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Radeon 4870

  mentalneko

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 19

1/17/12 4:37:24 PM#159
Originally posted by Cembrye

Sadly, I think it has all become academic.  Economically, the companies that make MMORPGS have all been moving more along the continuum towards making theme park games and will continue to do so. The reasons:

 

- the veteran player gaming population, the kind that played D&D and liked RP, is getting older and has less time to play

- the younger gaming population is more impatient and end-result oriented; they want it and want it now as well

- together, these two trends in the gaming population dominate the market

- theme parks are perfect for generating cheap and quick content to feed the maw of gamers wanting a quick fix

- economic pressures/greed make companies take the road less traveled, just like Hollywood movie making

- the road less travelled means not risking investment on open-ended worlds/sandbox games that appeal to smaller market

I mourn this for the simple reason that this means we may never see the full potential of technologies to make virtual game worlds.

The only ray of sun is the demonstrative appeal of quality single player RPG games like Skyrim.  The single player platform games will continue to raise the bar on virtual worlds and the MMORPGS will probably feel some of this gravitational pull.

One thought on FFA PVP and sandbox worlds.  I am a PVPer and enjoy PVP.  I have defended open world FFA PVP many times and even argued that RP needed PVP to be real RP.  However, with time I have shifted to the realization this is just not possible.  The anonymity of the Internet unleashes too many idiots and the cost in aggravation to other players and to the companies to police the idiots behavior is a negative bar to creation of open world free-choice based games.  I think FFA PVP has to be a sacrifice on the altar if you want to ever deploy sandbox worlds.  At least until someone actually dreams up player justice systems that work.

My two cents.

FFAPVP does not have to be a sacrifice in all honesty. When I played WoW I took the identity of a player savior, and I would guard outposts and areas so players could level in peace. I wouldn't kill unless I had to for the safety of my people, and in the end it added for a satisfying experience. Not everyone is evil, there is always a population of do gooders. There just neeeds to be a game that allows for such a thing, and if not a guardsmen.. Maybe a bounty hunter? Why can't players make bounty requests on gankers, or why can't quests on gankers become autogenerated? It would add a sort of circle of life to MMOs, and it would make them in to more of a living breathing experience again.

  myrmx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 94

1/20/12 1:02:43 PM#160
Originally posted by Matt1128Y
I anticipate a tsunami of WoW fanboys and MMORPGs noobs that will try to set me straight by propagating the lie that WoW is popular because it has a lenient death penalty, dungeon finder, instanced dungeons, and quest indicators. That's wrong.

WoW didn't have any of the above when it was first released save for a lenient death penalty and instanced dungeons. The rest came later.

The reason why WoW is popular is because:

1. It was developed by a popular company.
2. WoW is based on a popular universe.
3. WoW was released during a time when EQ was in its decline, when people were fed up with SOE's antics.
4. Good controls and UI.

WoW is really just a dumbed down version of EQ with better graphics, UI, and controls.

The real reason why wow went as good as it did isn't because of all these reason it is because the game was released 2 year after Warcraft 3 and the battle.net community support ... If you remember before Battle.net was that muddy black screen you used to play diablo 1 and it kind of sucked. With the implementation of battle.net and WC3 they pretty much laid the groundwork toward a stable community that would jump on WoW without even looking...

Taking for example star wars i am quite sure if they had released some kind of mini game be it a space shooter or a single player game based upon the entry of the storyline (3000 year before the movies) it would've taken a bigger grasp on people.

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