Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I could really give a shit about the SWG vs. TOR debate. I never played SWG before the NGE, and when I did play it, it was a terrible, buggy, half-baked experience.

 

As for claiming that sandbox games are dead, and that there's no point in continuing their development, I would say that's an extremely short sighted projection, and doesn't take into account that some of the most popular single player games that have released in the last two years have been sandbox related titles (Minecraft, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim to some extent). Are sandboxes suffering in the MMO platform? Absolutely, and as much as I would like to place the blame upon a bunch of morons who don't know any better, the fact of the matter is that themeparks are easier to enjoy, and easier to create. There's really no surprise to me, as much as I dislike it, that themeparks are overrunning the market, but to outwardly condemn sandboxes as being a thing of the past, I would like to point everyone to the various threads and news related articles regarding the death of PC gaming. According to several individuals, it would appear that PC gaming has been dead for years, and will never make a come back.

"Derrr look at sandbox games like Red Dead, GTA, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout. Sandboxes are so ruling!!!!!!!"

 

Yeah look at them, they play pretty much like a WoW or EQ. You do not alter the world, nor create content. The world is not a empty slate, just waiting to become a ghost town. You do not spend the entirety of game playing non combat professions.

 

SWG was a flaming POS. Rather than providing a good PVE gaming experience, Koster put the focus on non combat classes. Which is why he now no longer works in the MMO field. He wouldnt understand "fun" if it was a dog, and someone tied the proverbial pork chop around his neck. Farming money to buy the same items ad nauseum isnt the general persons idea of a good time.

 

Selling folks on a game which is simply about work isnt going to net ya a ton of subs. Sure it will pull in some of the diehards around here. For every Owen though, there are dozens that prefer the adventure role.

 

In the grand scheme of things, the parrots trumpting "sandbox sandbox" mean jack & shit to the population count of the MMO genre. Their numbers are puny, and thats why all they will ever have is memories....no one wants to donate the money to make them a game these days.

Comedy of horror.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I could really give a shit about the SWG vs. TOR debate. I never played SWG before the NGE, and when I did play it, it was a terrible, buggy, half-baked experience.

 

As for claiming that sandbox games are dead, and that there's no point in continuing their development, I would say that's an extremely short sighted projection, and doesn't take into account that some of the most popular single player games that have released in the last two years have been sandbox related titles (Minecraft, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim to some extent). Are sandboxes suffering in the MMO platform? Absolutely, and as much as I would like to place the blame upon a bunch of morons who don't know any better, the fact of the matter is that themeparks are easier to enjoy, and easier to create. There's really no surprise to me, as much as I dislike it, that themeparks are overrunning the market, but to outwardly condemn sandboxes as being a thing of the past, I would like to point everyone to the various threads and news related articles regarding the death of PC gaming. According to several individuals, it would appear that PC gaming has been dead for years, and will never make a come back.

"Derrr look at sandbox games like Red Dead, GTA, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout. Sandboxes are so ruling!!!!!!!"

 

Yeah look at them, they play pretty much like a WoW or EQ. You do not alter the world, nor create content. The world is not a empty slate, just waiting to become a ghost town. You do not spend the entirety of game playing non combat professions.

 

SWG was a flaming POS. Rather than providing a good PVE gaming experience, Koster put the focus on non combat classes. Which is why he now no longer works in the MMO field. He wouldnt understand "fun" if it was a dog, and someone tied the proverbial pork chop around his neck. Farming money to buy the same items ad nauseum isnt the general persons idea of a good time.

 

Selling folks on a game which is simply about work isnt going to net ya a ton of subs. Sure it will pull in some of the diehards around here. For every Owen though, there are dozens that prefer the adventure role.

 

In the grand scheme of things, the parrots trumpting "sandbox sandbox" mean jack & shit to the population count of the MMO genre. Their numbers are puny, and thats why all they will ever have is memories....no one wants to donate the money to make them a game these days.

There are hundreds if not thousands of players playing sandboxes. ATITD is a great example. If I didn't have to write my own game I would still be putting in 8 hour days. They have 600 people in Egypt or maybe just River Plains so far. Sure its not huge but it is sandbox and making money.

FYI there are literally millions of players playing games that revolve entirely around the economy, they just aren't MMOs. Hell the Sims is a game about making your peeps pee and take a shower and take out the trash and its got a massive following. Its just no one has successfully combined it into an MMO at that level.

Then make a game, and capitolize on this vast untapped market eh?

Like you said....hundreds....maybe even thousands of folks want sandboxes. Hundred of thousands, and for some games millions, play themeparks.

It isnt even close what total sub numbers are for the two genres here in NA. Rather than accept that, you sandboxers keep flapping the yap about how wonderful your prefered genre is, and how there is no doubt "soon it will be number 1".

No it wont. A new SWG, launching at the same time as TOR, would fold just as fast as it did originally. Owen doesnt sell boxes in the MMO realm. Sims, Minecraft, and a plethora of other titles await you in a different genre. They just dont work in this one.

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I could really give a shit about the SWG vs. TOR debate. I never played SWG before the NGE, and when I did play it, it was a terrible, buggy, half-baked experience.

 

As for claiming that sandbox games are dead, and that there's no point in continuing their development, I would say that's an extremely short sighted projection, and doesn't take into account that some of the most popular single player games that have released in the last two years have been sandbox related titles (Minecraft, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim to some extent). Are sandboxes suffering in the MMO platform? Absolutely, and as much as I would like to place the blame upon a bunch of morons who don't know any better, the fact of the matter is that themeparks are easier to enjoy, and easier to create. There's really no surprise to me, as much as I dislike it, that themeparks are overrunning the market, but to outwardly condemn sandboxes as being a thing of the past, I would like to point everyone to the various threads and news related articles regarding the death of PC gaming. According to several individuals, it would appear that PC gaming has been dead for years, and will never make a come back.

"Derrr look at sandbox games like Red Dead, GTA, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout. Sandboxes are so ruling!!!!!!!"

 

Yeah look at them, they play pretty much like a WoW or EQ. You do not alter the world, nor create content. The world is not a empty slate, just waiting to become a ghost town. You do not spend the entirety of game playing non combat professions.

 

SWG was a flaming POS. Rather than providing a good PVE gaming experience, Koster put the focus on non combat classes. Which is why he now no longer works in the MMO field. He wouldnt understand "fun" if it was a dog, and someone tied the proverbial pork chop around his neck. Farming money to buy the same items ad nauseum isnt the general persons idea of a good time.

 

Selling folks on a game which is simply about work isnt going to net ya a ton of subs. Sure it will pull in some of the diehards around here. For every Owen though, there are dozens that prefer the adventure role.

 

In the grand scheme of things, the parrots trumpting "sandbox sandbox" mean jack & shit to the population count of the MMO genre. Their numbers are puny, and thats why all they will ever have is memories....no one wants to donate the money to make them a game these days.

Comedy of horror.

The comedy of horror is listening to folks whine that AAA devs should put out money to cater to a pathetically small fan base.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Moaky07

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I could really give a shit about the SWG vs. TOR debate. I never played SWG before the NGE, and when I did play it, it was a terrible, buggy, half-baked experience.

 

As for claiming that sandbox games are dead, and that there's no point in continuing their development, I would say that's an extremely short sighted projection, and doesn't take into account that some of the most popular single player games that have released in the last two years have been sandbox related titles (Minecraft, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim to some extent). Are sandboxes suffering in the MMO platform? Absolutely, and as much as I would like to place the blame upon a bunch of morons who don't know any better, the fact of the matter is that themeparks are easier to enjoy, and easier to create. There's really no surprise to me, as much as I dislike it, that themeparks are overrunning the market, but to outwardly condemn sandboxes as being a thing of the past, I would like to point everyone to the various threads and news related articles regarding the death of PC gaming. According to several individuals, it would appear that PC gaming has been dead for years, and will never make a come back.

"Derrr look at sandbox games like Red Dead, GTA, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout. Sandboxes are so ruling!!!!!!!"

 

Yeah look at them, they play pretty much like a WoW or EQ. You do not alter the world, nor create content. The world is not a empty slate, just waiting to become a ghost town. You do not spend the entirety of game playing non combat professions.

 

SWG was a flaming POS. Rather than providing a good PVE gaming experience, Koster put the focus on non combat classes. Which is why he now no longer works in the MMO field. He wouldnt understand "fun" if it was a dog, and someone tied the proverbial pork chop around his neck. Farming money to buy the same items ad nauseum isnt the general persons idea of a good time.

 

Selling folks on a game which is simply about work isnt going to net ya a ton of subs. Sure it will pull in some of the diehards around here. For every Owen though, there are dozens that prefer the adventure role.

 

In the grand scheme of things, the parrots trumpting "sandbox sandbox" mean jack & shit to the population count of the MMO genre. Their numbers are puny, and thats why all they will ever have is memories....no one wants to donate the money to make them a game these days.

Comedy of horror.

The comedy of horror is listening to folks whine that AAA devs should put out money to cater to a pathetically small fan base.

It's really not as small as you're trying to make it seem, and it's difficult to take someone seriously who posts in the manner that you do. Whining? How about sharing an opinion on a public message board, most of which you're not even directly responding to. No, what you're responding to is the general argument for sandboxes, and dislike it all you may, it doesn't make bad information correct.

I loved SWG, pre NGE, tolerated the CU. But I chose SWTOR the way it is now. Bioware did an awesome job in my opinion. Its exactly what they wanted. They have said for years that they were focusing on the story. Not the Sandbox, Im sorry but SWG is DEAD. Its not coming back {mod edit}. So all this comparing the 2 needs to stop. There not the same game get over it. If you dont like story then move on this isnt the game for you.

I think there's no genre or style of game that's "never going to be popular". It's implementation that matters most, style and features really take a backseat to implementation when you're talking about the success of a game, or even how fun it is.

Many say this, and I agree: If a company like Blizzard, Bioware or Bethesda with the financial and designer chops to do it made a high quality sandbox game, it'd most probably be popular. Not WOW-popular or maybe not even as popular as SWTOR is going to be, but I'm willing to bet it can break something like 500K players. 

I guess the resentment from a lot of players has to do with this. SOE dropped the ball with SWG on many levels, but did succeed quite well in others, and those act like an eternal teaser for things to come that never have. Now nobody with any amount of money that matters is going near the concept.

I'll take the original SWG as it was, no tinkering needed. I played from day 1 and there was still so much I didn't get to do before it was ruined.

Originally posted by solarine

I think there's no genre or style of game that's "never going to be popular". It's implementation that matters most, style and features really take a backseat to implementation when you're talking about the success of a game, or even how fun it is.

Many say this, and I agree: If a company like Blizzard, Bioware or Bethesda with the financial and designer chops to do it made a high quality sandbox game, it'd most probably be popular. Not WOW-popular or maybe not even as popular as SWTOR is going to be, but I'm willing to bet it can break something like 500K players. 

I guess the resentment from a lot of players has to do with this. SOE dropped the ball with SWG on many levels, but did succeed quite well in others, and those act like an eternal teaser for things to come that never have. Now nobody with any amount of money that matters is going near the concept.

OK you say they are bummed....

It matters to the rest of us for what reason exactly? A poll on MMORPG isnt exactly a scientific breakdown. It is simply another way to cry "we wanted the PRECioUs". They had their game, it failed, end of story.

Themepark gamers, nor BW, had anything to do with SWG. Yet we get drawn into these folks rants, cause they cant let go, and simply let those wishing for TOR/any other themepark enjoy their game. This shit has been going on since Nov 05.

To give the OP credit, at least this thread is in the general forums. Typically we see this clusterfuck stuff in the TOR area.

Sandboxers werent owed a new SWG. Sandboxers didnt get a new SWG. Lastly, sandboxers need to STFU about SWG2 as it isnt happening.

Looks like SWG2 is winning this pole.

I just want to play my TKM medic again. Is that too much to ask??

Originally posted by evianwater

You act as if SWG..or any other game has been truly innovative.

Hmm I'm pretty sure that pre-NGE SWG's class system was pretty "trully innovative" - never has seen a flexible tree system like that, still haven't seen it since.

SWG's manufacturing, crafting, mat quality and experiementation system was pretty innovative. SWG's pet system was pretty innovative.

There was more than a few things that SWG has brought innovation on. The only systems that was NOT innovative was the combat, the missions and quests - those were mundane to the core.

That's said, there were innovations in swtor as well imo - the more in depth companion system than any other game was pretty innovative. The flashpoints idea was pretty decent.

There are innovations in both games. It is just that people are obsessed in ripping on them that they only see the "same-old" aspects and didn't see the rest, most likely they DON'T try to see the rest anyways because they try to play every god-damn game like WoW :/

TL:DR version - User error more than the developers'. 

SWG 1.5 with better graphics, preNGE and please not from SOE could have been a truly amazing game.

SWG was like having a second job while SWTOR is all about having fun. SWTOR anyday SWG was a huge waste of my damn time!

No matter how many polls are made, SWG will never come back face it.  Its over, it never had any legs the first time at launch.  If a Japanese MMORPG, FFXI which was out before it can kick the pants off SWG, there is not much else to say.  FFXI has 500k subscriptions to this day. While SWG in its highest peak was 300k if that at all. 

No regular MMO gamer really wanted SWG, the numbers speak for itself. 

SWTOR will have 600k - 1.5 mil subscription base which SWG could only dream of as a MMO. 

SWTOR is actually closer to sticking to Star Wars lore and thats a good thing. 

Well, I would still be playing Pre-CU/NGE SWG if it was still around.  Ever since my departure from SWG, or to be more exact, SOE screwing the game over, I haven't been able to find an MMORPG "home" ever since.  The game mechanics I liked, but another unrecoverable loss was the truly great community we once had.

Originally posted by DarthJopeous

No matter how many polls are made, SWG will never come back face it.  Its over, it never had any legs the first time at launch.  If a Japanese MMORPG, FFXI which was out before it can kick the pants off SWG, there is not much else to say.  FFXI has 500k subscriptions to this day. While SWG in its highest peak was 300k if that at all. 

No regular MMO gamer really wanted SWG, the numbers speak for itself. 

SWTOR will have 600k - 1.5 mil subscription base which SWG could only dream of as a MMO. 

 

SWTOR is actually closer to sticking to Star Wars lore and thats a good thing. 

swg reborn ofcourse but that's in a different life.

Originally posted by Byrhofen

oh look, another thinly veiled attempt at claiming SW:TOR is not an MMO.

I voted for SW:TOR as it is, even though I could claim to be an SWG vet, having had 5 active accounts up until the NGE hit, but why bother?

SWG was fun, but it had its time, it is over.

SW:TOR may not be a sandbox, but so what? it is still an MMO, it is still fun (in my opinion) to play, it is still Star Wars, and lets be honest here, it is definately not as buggy as SWG was.

 SwTOR is on a smaller scale in many ways that SWG was (through out its life span). There really is no way to compare these two games. SWG.. yes had more bugs, but also had alot more to offer.  SWG's space combat blows the shitstains out of TOR's, there were 30 perfessions in SWG compared to 16 (including AC's) in TOR. The worlds were open not pathed. It was just a very different game.

i could of told u wht woudl win by the title. More fans on mmorpg.com are sandbox fans. That said most of the mmo crowd doesnt actually play sandbox games. Theres a reason eve is the top sandbox out there with only 500k subs

No offense but im not a sandbox fan so i perfer tor.  Teh fact is even if u had galaxies in todays world made by soe ud still have the same issues taht plagued the game that forced the nge that forced loyal players to bolt that u hd then

Ud still not have the amount of players lucas or soe wanted and soe wouldnt of had the experince of the nge so it would probably happen again so nothing would of changed just the tech.

If I could I would play both (if SWG was done right). It's just the whole Sandbox Vs. Themepark thing again