Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Telil

to see both side is not a gift, it should be a basic understanding of every average person. you think us old timers think that really? i would rather say that was your poor attempt at sarcasm. fact is we grew up in a different time. and although we recognise there were limits to our beloved games back in the days, we still loved them for what they were.

Myself...i am not trying to say old games were far superior, just that in my opinion ...again i repeat, in my opinion, modern games have lost some of the romance of older games. Maybe the reason was that our older games were limited due to technology and the fact that the genre was just starting out. whatever the reason makes no difference, to me, games have still lost a lot of that feeling of danger and adventure.

Onto your other point. you have repeated what 99% of this thread have been either saying or agreeing too. That money is the primary motivation...of course it is. but did the developers of Everquest make billions and retire laughing all the way to the bank? or did they make just enough to survive and see thier project come to fruition?

Now ask yourself this! do the devs of Everquest see it as a failure?

Point is if everything was just about making money, then why not just do something else back in the days when mmos didnt make wads of cash?

See, I'm one of the old-timers, I was there playing back in the UO/EQ days and, for what games were back then, they were fine.  But that's not something that will continue to work as time goes on, any more than Pacman or Asteroids will continue to work over time.  If you want to expand your market and stay in business, you have to change with the times.  That is what every successful industry does.

The fact is, the people who made EQ made their money and moved on to other things.  That's not their primary source of income today.  It was great for it's time.  That time is over.  Now it's a mere ghost of what it once was, with a very niche audience and not making much.  Why?  Because there just isn't that much mainstream interest in it as a game.  If they made it again, with updated graphics but otherwise very similar, it would fail.  It's just not the kind of game that modern gamers are looking for, any more than modern gamers would go back and play Pacman or Space Invaders in droves.  Trying to make those games again would be a recipe for failure.

EQ was just as much about making money as any other game, the playerbase was just different back then.  It was very much a niche market.  Today that's just not the case.  We'll never go back to a time when a tiny niche model is going to be acceptable, especially with modern development costs and timelines.

friend me and you are just not going to agree.

To me your argument is all about the making millions, and if you dont then change and do something else. Now i admit i myself am no millionaire! but what i do have is a decent paid job that puts a roof over my head and food on my plate! along with that i have a job that i can honestly say i enjoy. now in your argumnet i should leave my job as its just not making me enough cash. but in my argument, i am doing something i enjoy and getting paid enough to get by. I'm happy friend.

Now all i want is for thier to be a group of people who are in the same mind as me and are in the buisness of making MMO's.

you feel there are no people like that in this world but i beg to differ, i see them all the time.

If you think i am asking for EQ to be remade with better graphics, then again you are so far of the point. Remake a game like EQ with better graphics if you want ( myself, graphics come down the list ) keep the freedom and choice that i had, improve on it by all means, have a good advancment system like AA's, where i can choose my own advancment...again improve on it by all means. But just keep the danger, the fear of losing all my stuff, heck even sitting on a boat and chatting about what  we will find on the other side is ok with me. make me plan things. Yes add something for me to do that will take minutes to set up, but dont take away the bigger dangerous things....i enjoyed that.

Look me and you can argue our views all day, but there are games in development that are trying to do the things i want back. now do i go with your argument or trust the developers that are trying these things? sorry friend i have to go with the guys that have experience behind them and trust them.

Originally posted by Telil

To me your argument is all about the making millions, and if you dont then change and do something else. Now i admit i myself am no millionaire! but what i do have is a decent paid job that puts a roof over my head and food on my plate! along with that i have a job that i can honestly say i enjoy. now in your argumnet i should leave my job as its just not making me enough cash. but in my argument, i am doing something i enjoy and getting paid enough to get by. I'm happy friend.

Now all i want is for thier to be a group of people who are in the same mind as me and are in the buisness of making MMO's.

you feel there are no people like that in this world but i beg to differ, i see them all the time.

If you think i am asking for EQ to be remade with better graphics, then again you are so far of the point. Remake a game like EQ with better graphics if you want ( myself, graphics come down the list ) keep the freedom and choice that i had, improve on it by all means, have a good advancment system like AA's, where i can choose my own advancment...again improve on it by all means. But just keep the danger, the fear of losing all my stuff, heck even sitting on a boat and chatting about what  we will find on the other side is ok with me. make me plan things. Yes add something for me to do that will take minutes to set up, but dont take away the bigger dangerous things....i enjoyed that.

Look me and you can argue our views all day, but there are games in development that are trying to do the things i want back. now do i go with your argument or trust the developers that are trying these things? sorry friend i have to go with the guys that have experience behind them and trust them.

The problem is, you're looking at this from the perspective of the individual gamer who wants what they want and thinks it's the job of others to provide it.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of the business owner who has bills to pay and needs to produce a product that has wide spread appeal to garner the largest return on investment possible.  The problem is, the business owner perspective wins every time.  You just won't find any business out there that is  going to produce a game that they know will run at a loss.  It just doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day, the employees have to be paid, the investors have to be paid, server costs need to be paid and there needs to be enough of a profit to make the stockholders happy.  If all of that isn't being done, there will be no game because the developer can't afford to be a charity.  Unfortunately, there are far too many people in this consumer-happy, liberal society who think they get what they want, because they want it, no matter the consequences.

It just doesn't work that way.  Never has, never will.  Deal with reality.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Telil

To me your argument is all about the making millions, and if you dont then change and do something else. Now i admit i myself am no millionaire! but what i do have is a decent paid job that puts a roof over my head and food on my plate! along with that i have a job that i can honestly say i enjoy. now in your argumnet i should leave my job as its just not making me enough cash. but in my argument, i am doing something i enjoy and getting paid enough to get by. I'm happy friend.

Now all i want is for thier to be a group of people who are in the same mind as me and are in the buisness of making MMO's.

you feel there are no people like that in this world but i beg to differ, i see them all the time.

If you think i am asking for EQ to be remade with better graphics, then again you are so far of the point. Remake a game like EQ with better graphics if you want ( myself, graphics come down the list ) keep the freedom and choice that i had, improve on it by all means, have a good advancment system like AA's, where i can choose my own advancment...again improve on it by all means. But just keep the danger, the fear of losing all my stuff, heck even sitting on a boat and chatting about what  we will find on the other side is ok with me. make me plan things. Yes add something for me to do that will take minutes to set up, but dont take away the bigger dangerous things....i enjoyed that.

Look me and you can argue our views all day, but there are games in development that are trying to do the things i want back. now do i go with your argument or trust the developers that are trying these things? sorry friend i have to go with the guys that have experience behind them and trust them.

The problem is, you're looking at this from the perspective of the individual gamer who wants what they want and thinks it's the job of others to provide it.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of the business owner who has bills to pay and needs to produce a product that has wide spread appeal to garner the largest return on investment possible.  The problem is, the business owner perspective wins every time.  You just won't find any business out there that is  going to produce a game that they know will run at a loss.  It just doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day, the employees have to be paid, the investors have to be paid, server costs need to be paid and there needs to be enough of a profit to make the stockholders happy.  If all of that isn't being done, there will be no game because the developer can't afford to be a charity.  Unfortunately, there are far too many people in this consumer-happy, liberal society who think they get what they want, because they want it, no matter the consequences.

It just doesn't work that way.  Never has, never will.  Deal with reality.

As much as I hate to I am forced to agree. There has to be profit. But profit is more tightly confined by graphics. DF is amazingly cool and Tarn takes donations for his money and has enough to live on, and he can expand the game because he doesn't have highfalutin graphics to take up all his time and money. Sadly graphics sell, even among people who like the gameplay I like they want graphics too and that is mutually exclusive. The demographic is just not large enough to support the risk of an AAA title with the gameplay myself and others want. I am willing to sacrifice graphics to get a playable game but too many people are either too entitled greedy or stupid to understand that you have to make a choice about what is important. You just can't have it all if you are in a niche demographic and they refuse to accept it.

Fellow sandboxers, PRIORITIZE! There are companies that would put out sandboxes with awesome gameplay if you stopped insisting they shell out for multimillion dollar graphics and game engine development! If you cut off 75% of the cost you can have a demographic 1/4 the size and still convince developers to make the game.

To borrow an activist phrase, THE PERFECT IS THE ENEMY OF THE GOOD. If you get enough games to make enough money on the gameplay then you will maybe convince a developer to make better graphics also. You have to work your way up the chain first though.

Its ironic that so many sandboxers say that theme park players are after instant gratification in games but they can't accept a little delayed gratification in order to get a graphically good game made. 

Essentially sand boxers are demanding instant gratification in real life and isn't that infinitely more pathetic than demanding it in a video game?

Originally posted by Crunchy221

All that stuff is still in Darkfall.

 Play it now while its still a hardcore game.  Darkfall 2.0 is on the horizon and looks to be an easy mode progression game that is 100% gear based.

As a PVP game the fact that it wasn't lateral progression to begin with was a big mistake.  (Lateral progress = your character gains more tactical options, but doesn't actually grow in overall power.)

I mean, sure there's a niche of casual PVPers who wants to beat their opponents because they logged more hours or brought more friends...

If Darkfall had been a true hardcore PVPer game, it would've been an epic fantasy warfare version of Planetside.  Lateral progression, set factions, no PVE, strongly-defined roles which you can switch between.  Darkfall had potential, but it didn't focus on offering a true PVP experience.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Telil

To me your argument is all about the making millions, and if you dont then change and do something else. Now i admit i myself am no millionaire! but what i do have is a decent paid job that puts a roof over my head and food on my plate! along with that i have a job that i can honestly say i enjoy. now in your argumnet i should leave my job as its just not making me enough cash. but in my argument, i am doing something i enjoy and getting paid enough to get by. I'm happy friend.

Now all i want is for thier to be a group of people who are in the same mind as me and are in the buisness of making MMO's.

you feel there are no people like that in this world but i beg to differ, i see them all the time.

If you think i am asking for EQ to be remade with better graphics, then again you are so far of the point. Remake a game like EQ with better graphics if you want ( myself, graphics come down the list ) keep the freedom and choice that i had, improve on it by all means, have a good advancment system like AA's, where i can choose my own advancment...again improve on it by all means. But just keep the danger, the fear of losing all my stuff, heck even sitting on a boat and chatting about what  we will find on the other side is ok with me. make me plan things. Yes add something for me to do that will take minutes to set up, but dont take away the bigger dangerous things....i enjoyed that.

Look me and you can argue our views all day, but there are games in development that are trying to do the things i want back. now do i go with your argument or trust the developers that are trying these things? sorry friend i have to go with the guys that have experience behind them and trust them.

The problem is, you're looking at this from the perspective of the individual gamer who wants what they want and thinks it's the job of others to provide it.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of the business owner who has bills to pay and needs to produce a product that has wide spread appeal to garner the largest return on investment possible.  The problem is, the business owner perspective wins every time.  You just won't find any business out there that is  going to produce a game that they know will run at a loss.  It just doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day, the employees have to be paid, the investors have to be paid, server costs need to be paid and there needs to be enough of a profit to make the stockholders happy.  If all of that isn't being done, there will be no game because the developer can't afford to be a charity.  Unfortunately, there are far too many people in this consumer-happy, liberal society who think they get what they want, because they want it, no matter the consequences.

It just doesn't work that way.  Never has, never will.  Deal with reality.

As much as I hate to I am forced to agree. There has to be profit. But profit is more tightly confined by graphics. DF is amazingly cool and Tarn takes donations for his money and has enough to live on, and he can expand the game because he doesn't have highfalutin graphics to take up all his time and money. Sadly graphics sell, even among people who like the gameplay I like they want graphics too and that is mutually exclusive. The demographic is just not large enough to support the risk of an AAA title with the gameplay myself and others want. I am willing to sacrifice graphics to get a playable game but too many people are either too entitled greedy or stupid to understand that you have to make a choice about what is important. You just can't have it all if you are in a niche demographic and they refuse to accept it.

 

Fellow sandboxers, PRIORITIZE! There are companies that would put out sandboxes with awesome gameplay if you stopped insisting they shell out for multimillion dollar graphics and game engine development! If you cut off 75% of the cost you can have a demographic 1/4 the size and still convince developers to make the game.

To borrow an activist phrase, THE PERFECT IS THE ENEMY OF THE GOOD. If you get enough games to make enough money on the gameplay then you will maybe convince a developer to make better graphics also. You have to work your way up the chain first though.

Its ironic that so many sandboxers say that theme park players are after instant gratification in games but they can't accept a little delayed gratification in order to get a graphically good game made. 

Essentially sand boxers are demanding instant gratification in real life and isn't that infinitely more pathetic than demanding it in a video game?

I completely agree and started a thread saying the same thing just a little while ago.  Either the game has all the bells and whistles which costs tons of money and therefore has to draw in the largest possible audience (which unfortunately so far does not at least seem to be sandbox).  Or they don't have all the bells and whistles because they can't afford and my never be able to because there are targeting a smaller demorgraphic, the devs make sacrifices and the players either accept this or hope that someday the game draws enough peole to add bells and whistles (see Eve).

With every demand the player has, the more it costs developers, they wider the base they need to support said game. 

Venge

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I completely agree and started a thread saying the same thing just a little while ago.  Either the game has all the bells and whistles which costs tons of money and therefore has to draw in the largest possible audience (which unfortunately so far does not at least seem to be sandbox).  Or they don't have all the bells and whistles because they can't afford and my never be able to because there are targeting a smaller demorgraphic, the devs make sacrifices and the players either accept this or hope that someday the game draws enough peole to add bells and whistles (see Eve).

With every demand the player has, the more it costs developers, they wider the base they need to support said game. 

Venge

You're absolutely right, but I have to wonder if there are enough people who would play such a stripped down game if there aren't enough right now who would play the full-featured version and make it worth producing.  Sandbox players are a very small niche, especially since you can't even get any kind of agreement among them as to what they want in a game.  Could a game be produced that would have enough for a large enough audience to be financially successful?

I'm not sure it could.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I completely agree and started a thread saying the same thing just a little while ago.  Either the game has all the bells and whistles which costs tons of money and therefore has to draw in the largest possible audience (which unfortunately so far does not at least seem to be sandbox).  Or they don't have all the bells and whistles because they can't afford and my never be able to because there are targeting a smaller demorgraphic, the devs make sacrifices and the players either accept this or hope that someday the game draws enough peole to add bells and whistles (see Eve).

With every demand the player has, the more it costs developers, they wider the base they need to support said game. 

Venge

You're absolutely right, but I have to wonder if there are enough people who would play such a stripped down game if there aren't enough right now who would play the full-featured version and make it worth producing.  Sandbox players are a very small niche, especially since you can't even get any kind of agreement among them as to what they want in a game.  Could a game be produced that would have enough for a large enough audience to be financially successful?

I'm not sure it could.

If we could create first a text based sandbox game, and then a low quality 2d sandbox game and then a runescape/atitd level game we could probably get enough success with the rs/atitd level game to convince big devs that with graphics you could make a good sandbox. SWG and EVE are pretty large sandboxes but they are screwed over by their space theme. with a more standard theme we could have a much bigger audience, maybe even a few million subs.

It is just necessary to demonstrate the concerted demand for a good sandbox. Even SWG was full of bugs and had problems. So a more quality game would get many more subs. And fixing a few bugs is hardly the most expensive aspect of an AAA game.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Telil

To me your argument is all about the making millions, and if you dont then change and do something else. Now i admit i myself am no millionaire! but what i do have is a decent paid job that puts a roof over my head and food on my plate! along with that i have a job that i can honestly say i enjoy. now in your argumnet i should leave my job as its just not making me enough cash. but in my argument, i am doing something i enjoy and getting paid enough to get by. I'm happy friend.

Now all i want is for thier to be a group of people who are in the same mind as me and are in the buisness of making MMO's.

you feel there are no people like that in this world but i beg to differ, i see them all the time.

If you think i am asking for EQ to be remade with better graphics, then again you are so far of the point. Remake a game like EQ with better graphics if you want ( myself, graphics come down the list ) keep the freedom and choice that i had, improve on it by all means, have a good advancment system like AA's, where i can choose my own advancment...again improve on it by all means. But just keep the danger, the fear of losing all my stuff, heck even sitting on a boat and chatting about what  we will find on the other side is ok with me. make me plan things. Yes add something for me to do that will take minutes to set up, but dont take away the bigger dangerous things....i enjoyed that.

Look me and you can argue our views all day, but there are games in development that are trying to do the things i want back. now do i go with your argument or trust the developers that are trying these things? sorry friend i have to go with the guys that have experience behind them and trust them.

The problem is, you're looking at this from the perspective of the individual gamer who wants what they want and thinks it's the job of others to provide it.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of the business owner who has bills to pay and needs to produce a product that has wide spread appeal to garner the largest return on investment possible.  The problem is, the business owner perspective wins every time.  You just won't find any business out there that is  going to produce a game that they know will run at a loss.  It just doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day, the employees have to be paid, the investors have to be paid, server costs need to be paid and there needs to be enough of a profit to make the stockholders happy.  If all of that isn't being done, there will be no game because the developer can't afford to be a charity.  Unfortunately, there are far too many people in this consumer-happy, liberal society who think they get what they want, because they want it, no matter the consequences.

It just doesn't work that way.  Never has, never will.  Deal with reality.

Friend, calm down a little, were just debating opinions that's all. Telling me to deal with it isn't going to get you anywhere.

The reason i dont have to "deal with reality" is as i have said a few times now, Archeage, Dawntide and a few others are already in production. They are not billed as AAA titles but as titles that are trying either the sandbox, or the sandpark idea, that would ( of course if done right ) be my ideal!. So really, there are Developers out there willing to give it a go and no matter how much your opinion tells me that they wont....simple fact is they already are.

I agree with your first paragraph, not denying it at all. You are also correct that i am looking at it as an individual gamer, that is what i am.

As for getting what i want! you are really misunderstanding my veiws friend. and if you knew my charcter you would really think much the opposite. But we are on a gaming site, and as we can see by the fact that the games i am asking for are already in production, then conventional rules dont apply here.

Lets just agree that in our own little bubbles, our worlds work for us, but wouldnt if we switched sides...and that's ok, we dont have to. I am happy in my little bubble and life works for me this way...i am 38 years old by the way, so i have had a long time to form this opinion of mine :)

But back to my very first post in this thread! i meant no harm by it, it just struck me as funny that after voting in the poll, the next post i read said that, thats all it was! i meant no disrespect to anyone.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I completely agree and started a thread saying the same thing just a little while ago.  Either the game has all the bells and whistles which costs tons of money and therefore has to draw in the largest possible audience (which unfortunately so far does not at least seem to be sandbox).  Or they don't have all the bells and whistles because they can't afford and my never be able to because there are targeting a smaller demorgraphic, the devs make sacrifices and the players either accept this or hope that someday the game draws enough peole to add bells and whistles (see Eve).

With every demand the player has, the more it costs developers, they wider the base they need to support said game. 

Venge

You're absolutely right, but I have to wonder if there are enough people who would play such a stripped down game if there aren't enough right now who would play the full-featured version and make it worth producing.  Sandbox players are a very small niche, especially since you can't even get any kind of agreement among them as to what they want in a game.  Could a game be produced that would have enough for a large enough audience to be financially successful?

I'm not sure it could.

Thats the question it all boils down to.

The first thing io notice from many sandbox criers ( i am one of them ) is that they are not looking for AAA graphics, they want the features first and all the polish comes second.

But i see your point, is there enough of us to provide for? i dont know. I am hoping there are.