Lucas Arts may be partially to blame. But ultimalty it was SOE that didnt inform the player base what so ever about the plans for NGE. There was never offered a Test center to see the reactions about the NGE. They just suprised the whole community with, SUPRISE! We have this cool new revamp of the game, 2 weeks after they just had an expansion that most of the player base already shelled out money for.

So where Lucas Arts might have pressed SOE to make the game attractive to a younger player base, SOE completely ignored there current player base. Even the senior developer said that was a huge mistake on there part. Never disregard the players you already have. Not to mention SOE fired the only person that had a real connection to the current player base and the developers, "Tiggs" Dumbest mistake they could have done. She was very active in the forums trying to put out fires and calm the aggresive voices of the forums.

What I am looking at is, "Did they learn anything from what happened, and is it enough to help them in the future?". SOE learned just enough in my opinion, to be a little more careful in the actions they take. Even to this day I see a lot that scares me, and stops me from subscribing to anything they are a part of. I find, they have matured very little as a company. Sure they might not do anything as drastic anymore, but I can still see them thinking, "Maybe this time we can manage to make it work out?"

LA on the otherhand, based only on what I have seen and played of TOR, have actually managed to learn a good few lessons. Just playing the last three big test weekends, I actually came out thinking "These guys are really trying to to something well done here.", and you don't do anything well with a dictatorship company backing you cranking a whip to work faster. Three big test weekends, three slightly different builds to test and tweak. Can TOR launch with a little more spit and shine? Well of course it could, what game can't? Is what I saw enough for me to continue my pre-order and subscribe on the 20th? You bet it is.

Other may disagree, but thats my (Very short winded version of) two cents.

1) SOE failed to listen to their paying consumers.

2) New content was too slow to come (when it did it was in the form of an expan$ion pack) and old broken content was left broken for too long.

3) Jedi (too overpowered and they required nothing from other players)  Jedi forever changed the focus of the game.

Long before the NGE SWG was doomed and that's the fault of SOE not lucas arts.

SWG pre-CU was unique in so many ways. Sadly, after the departure of Raph Koster the rest of developers lost the original focus, and were probably pressured to do changes which corporate bosses were thinking would increase revenue.

SWG had something for practically everyone - even housewives were enjoying social aspects of it, there were grinders, incredible crafters and "businessmen", even elite smack-talking PvPers.

What it lacked is a certain accessibility for beginners, which could have been tweaked easily.

I remember some elements which were supposed to be included in the ORIGINAL Combat Upgrade - and those were excellent, but probably difficult to implement, so under constant pressure to "fluff-up" the game for kids, they come up with the rushed-up CU, which basically just introduced silly colored icons, destroyed many great combat animations, and added "root and snare" silliness.

I don't think Jedi destroyed the game - but in my opinion, the secret of unlocking should have remained a secret. It was mysterious and exciting - should have stayed that way.

All in all - WHAT WENT WRONG IS - if they wanted to make a new game, they should have just make a new game and leave the original one - even barely supported - for those who DID NOT want a new game.

It was the CU and especially the NGE afterwards.  SWG died after NGE was patched onto server.

I'm not too quick to only blame SOE and LA--there part in this was to get more $$$$, but they thought they were doing the right thing with their game because of feedback they were getting from....you guessed it--PLAYERS. The problem is, that feedback wasn't from the players that liked the game, it was from the players that QUIT the game, or indirectly form those that never played. When it came my time to quit, I didn't complain about a single thing--no reason, I just cancelled my subscription.

Some say players quit because of bugs, but how many quit out of boredom or frustration? Quitting from bugs?...maybe a few, but considering the changes they made to the game (NGE), the problem, they felt, was that people simply weren't enjoying their game.

I remember all the complaints I'd read on the boards--and keep in mind this was my very first MMORPG--after a while I noticed a pattern that was later confirmed by SOE. If players complained that they couldn't do as well as other professions, the other profs got NERFED! In a game with skills that are extrememly hard to balance, SOE opts to take the easiest route--take away abilities from those that can do what you CAN'T, so that NONE of you can! (Except Jedi LOL--but even they got nerfed a time or two)...adding frustration to those being NERFED. Why didn't SOE just add capabilites to the weaker profs? Because then someone else would see that and swear that they were now overpowered...so SOE took the position that if enough players say they couldn't do something that the other prof could, then that prof was overpowered--so I begged people to STOP doing that! STOP saying someone else can do something you can't, and instead just ask for better abilities for your profession--NEVER MENTION OTHER PROFESSIONS...did anyone listen?...NO--FRUSTRATING...and so people were constantly complaining about getting nerfed--they'd rage quit--and then the strangest thing would happen on the boards--instead of support form other players, they'd get "Don't let the door knob hit you..." taunts. I remember thinking "wait a minute, these guys' profession was just nerfed to hell, and people are actually happy about that?...ummm, what happens when the nerf bat hits their profession and no other players support them?" So again, I tried to be the voice of reason, begging people to support each other even if the nerf bat didn't impact their gameplay...yet still no one cared, until it was their turn to rage quit.

Let's not forget good old fashioned boredom--SWG became nothing more than a graphical chat room to many--and honestly for the social gamer, there was nothing wrong with that. I'd log in sometimes just to see what people were talking about, but then I decided to get more involved in the GCW and PVP...IT WAS A BLAST! I sucked, but it was fun...having a group of coverts and just a few overts...setting the trap, and when a group of enemy overts jumped our overts...GAME ON!--only to find that they too had coverts...next thing you know you have 40 players fighting and even running for their lives! Too much fun. I remember trying to level up my faction rank, and getting TEF'd and having to run for my life when a group of enemy overts ambushed me!--definitely more challenging than mowing down a dozen Storm Troopers! Hell I even went overt if I saw someone attacking a rebel base, just to get killed with my fellow NPC rebs--still fun...then they changed the system because of complaints, and TEF's went the way of the dinosaur --COMPLETELY destroying the GCW...and boredom set in. I had 3 paying accounts and each one had a yearly subscription--had about 6 months left on them when I stopped logging in to the game--I'd check the forums to see if they were ever going to revive the GCW, but they never did, so I didn't renew.

Want to save SWTOR? I'm going to tell you how:

First, always encourage the devs to add more of what you like to do in the game, but never--and this is going to sound odd to some--but NEVER complain about the stuff you don't like to do, if you don't HAVE to do it. As an example, the flirt dialogue--if you want more opportunites for your character to flirt and get laid, ask that they add more flirtatious dialogue/scenarios--but if you don't give a rat's ass if your character ever gets laid, don't say "Hey devs, instead of stupid flirts, can we get some really evil options?"...instead, just ask for more evil or cruel dialogue options--leave the flirt mechanic out of it because others might actually enjoy it, even if it's a very small percentage of players.

Second, and you're really going to hate this, but don't even complain about stuff you DO have to do that you don't like, if others DO like it. For example, let's say that Bioware decides to make small instanced story quests that allow you to make major changes to the appearance of your character--so anytime you want to change your character's appearance, they've made that option available, but you have to run through a little story quest, so that your character change "enhances" the immersion--it gives a reason for any major change in appearance--it could be different for every class or planet that you're on. Now let's say that many people applaud this mechanic, while many others think it's completely lame and a waste of their time...they just want a "clicky". It sucks, but suck it up lol...and if you rage quit because your character is too lame to complete the quest or you don't have any friends that are willing to help you, then don't mention why you're quitting when they ask you...make up something like "school/work demands" or don't give a reason at all. That way, it doesn't jeopardize something others enjoy.

Third, and finally, don't ever complain--EVER--about what other classes can do! Don't tell them there's a problem with Guardians because Vanguard is a better tank than Guardian...I know, it's already started--which is why I know that nerf bats are at the ready. STOP EFFING DOING THAT PEOPLE!!! Instead, just make suggestions on how Guardian's tanking abilities can and should be improved--hold aggro, crowd control, etc--NEVER MENTION THE OTHER CLASSES...need I say it again?...EVER!!!!! If they see a bunch of people leaving the Guardian class, they might actually do something about it to make it better, but if they see a bunch of people complaining about how much better Vanguards are and that's why they're switching...well, then Vanguard is now a target for nerfdom--doesn't mean they will, but if history has taught us anything, it's that it's easier to take away from a class, than it is to add..."there, now Vanguards aren't better than Guardians--is it lunch time yet?"

Judging by the level of replies given to any random topic here, I know this is all falling on deaf ears. There aren't many that "think" before they post--they see an opportunity to say something like "wall of text" or "tldr", and think themselves clever or above the haters/fanbois.

And since people are going to complain about stuff that other people enjoy anyway...I hate to say it, but some sort of cash shop probably could have helped SWG. Don't like grinding faction points to rank up because of the TEF? Well, buy your rank--problem solved. Sounds ridiculous, but it could've saved the GCW. SWTOR may have to allow people to buy what they hate doing, so that it won't be taken away from those that like doing it.

It went wrong when SOE thought that people wanted to play as Uncle Ben or Lando instead of Luke or Han.

The NGE, i thought everyone knew that.

it wasnt more of swg going wronge imo it was more of the people that were..alot of people didnt want a harder mmo to play..so swg targeted theampark players after they made it easy mode / style to play ..but it was too lil too late "took em to long to react"

changeing a game mid-way thru its life is risky..so risky it failed for em...then came along ea+lucas arts +bioware and its huge budget..the rest is history

imo i liked the "harder / sandbox" style of swg before they made it easy mode..swg had its core of players that loved playing it like that..but then switched to the "flavor of the month" theamparkers / easy moders...its hard to maintain 2 styles of players in a game that started off sandboxie...many things went wronge but im sure soe was part of it too lol i also blame soe for the leaves falling off my trees

Originally posted by odinsrath

it wasnt more of swg going wronge imo it was more of the people that were..alot of people didnt want a harder mmo to play..so swg targeted theampark players after they made it easy mode / style to play ..but it was too lil too late "took em to long to react"

changeing a game mid-way thru its life is risky..so risky it failed for em...then came along ea+lucas arts +bioware and its huge budget..the rest is history

imo i liked the "harder / sandbox" style of swg before they made it easy mode..swg had its core of players that loved playing it like that..but then switched to the "flavor of the month" theamparkers / easy moders...its hard to maintain 2 styles of players in a game that started off sandboxie...many things went wronge but im sure soe was part of it too lol i also blame soe for the leaves falling off my trees

I agree, people gave up on it!

Originally posted by Happyguy83

It went wrong when SOE thought that people wanted to play as Uncle Ben or Lando instead of Luke or Han.

Well that would be Burnt n Crispy Uncle Owen, but I agree.

I was 10 yrs old in 78, and SWs sure didnt capture my eye cause of some moisture farming. It was all about the Jedis & space battles back then, as I am sure it is with new fans till this very day.

They could of taken EQs engine, tweaked it for SWG, added whatever crafting, and put in a ton of PVE instead of housing. That game would of shot past EQ well before WoW did. EQ was holding around 450k subs back in 04, and SWG couldnt beat it out. Pretty sad with the IP.

It sucks for those that got attached to that sandbox game, cause it doesnt matter who ya are, you never wanna see your game go bye bye.

SWG is getting the MxO treatment though....has a hardcore following, but simply not enough folks interested. Hopefully some day they get some type of open code release.

It went wrong as soon as they added Jedi. Once that happened, it was all over.

Though I loved SWG it was a trainwreck from the very start, bugs bugs bugs and broken content and skills.  Still think it had the best crafting/housing system to this day and very surprised noone has tried to copy this.

Originally posted by Guileplayer

WoW came out, SOE panicked, wanted to attracted more casual players because pre-NGE was a complex game if you were into crafting, NGE happened and game died. 

/agree

Aside from that the game was released too early.

Also too much focus was put on Jedi and it should not have been a superior class to any other force enabled class (ala a force enabled pistoleer)...  Big mistake.

But nothing comes close to the mistake that was the NGE.

It was never about SW ,  but more about the designer and the complexity of the game he could build.  In the end he built an overly complex game for the technology on a extremely popular IP . To compound matters he/they then did the CU and NGE to attempt to save the game, and botched it badly. Failure to deliver on promises . Not keeping to the concept of the game and timeframe it was set in . Just so many more points you can go to , but the most important was the hubris of those on the managing end. Let's not forget the release of WoW ( I'm no fan of WoW and never have been , either . Sadly I have to add that disclaimer , least I be lableled a WoW Fanboi ) also that drove the final nail into that cofin.

Originally posted by Vuk65

It was never about SW ,  but more about the designer and the complexity of the game he could build.  In the end he built an overly complex game for the technology on a extremely popular IP . To compound matters he/they then did the CU and NGE to attempt to save the game, and botched it badly. Failure to deliver on promises . Not keeping to the concept of the game and timeframe it was set in . Just so many more points you can go to , but the most important was the hubris of those on the managing end. Let's not forget the release of WoW ( I'm no fan of WoW and never have been , either . Sadly I have to add that disclaimer , least I be lableled a WoW Fanboi ) also that drove the final nail into that cofin.

If "he" is Raph Koster then "he" left the development team right after release.  Raph did not want to release it unfinished, it was SOE.

'Overly complex'  :-)

WRONG!!!!! Wow had nothing to do with it!!!!  The game died after...

Real reasons imo:

1. They NEVER fixed early bugs and exploits!!! They kept adding stuff causing even more bugs!!! This was the beginning of the end !!!

2. The wound system was great dunno why the deleted it (gave entertainers a purpose in pvp)

3. Decay and death penalty!!! Could of been a little less harsh but was great taking it out was DUMB!!!!

4. Did i mention not fixing bugs????

5. 20 man hunting groups rocked!!!! Why delete it?  /sigh

6. Ealry BH system was good  Jedi who whipped out their sabre in town got on the bounty boards...The names on bounties were realistic  who the F$#$ hunts a mark not knowing who it is?  Cmon SOE really?

7. Hologrind was not thought out  imo...

8. Player faction bases didnt cost enough and should of gained added features the longer it survived, SOE dropped the ball   there.

thats just off the top of my head the CU and NGE was just the kill shot.. SWG was already hurting after year 1... The stuff they copied from WoW and going to combat levels was the biggest fubar in game history  but hey it was STAR WARSY!!  NOT!!!

Originally posted by Acebets70

who the F$#$ hunts a mark not knowing who it is?  Cmon SOE really?

If it was someone on the board that I knew was going to be really tough to beat, I might not think it was worth it. But, if I went to the trouble of tracking an unknown person down, I always fought them.

Just my thoughts on it.

Anyone that was there knows why SWG died.  SOE decided to create a New Game Experience.  They took 32 classes down to 9 "iconic" classes, took away our ability to multi-class and rewrote the game.   One of the lead developers also said the game was too complicated and required people to "read" too much, that gamers wanted more action and less stuff to do.   Let's also not forget they totally rewrote the combat of the game nad put in a psuedo first person-esq type combat system that blew chunks like sea-sick kid.   LOS for it was no existant(could shoot through entire mountains) and laser blast tracked targets like homing missles.   What a joke.

That is it in a nutshell.   Prior to the NGE, Star Wars Galaxies had over 350k subscribers...after the NGE the pop dropped to under 50k.   Now back then, sure WoW was pushing 4 mil subscribers...but WoW was WoW and SOE decided they wanted to be like WoW.   Instead of realizing what they had and it was good...they alienated their core player base and drove them away.   The game never recovered.   Because if you look at most western MMO's today, they'd kill to retain 350k subscribers.  To bad SOE head muckity muck was so stupid.   Anyway,  it closes it doors for good this Dec.    Good riddence to bad game.    

Most simply put $0E released an incomplete and unfinished game. They made sweeping changes to it not once but twice. The whole thing is most analogues to having your favorite book turned into a movie and finding out that the screen play was written by someone who never read the book  and a director who did not read the book and has an assistant who told him the highlights of the screen play.

 After the movie comes out it does not do as well as you would think so it is reworked and released  with some new scenes about a year later.  About another year later a new person is hired who did read the book.  However this person thinks the old movie is to heady and wants it to become more light hearted but no longer has money to shoot new scenes  or just make a reboot of the movie so instead they just re edit the old movie.