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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

Site Suggestions  » Moderation of moderators?

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74 posts found
  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5461

12/05/11 11:25:53 PM#61
Originally posted by Herodes

Mmh, thanks for finding. I was actually sure it was an page 2 or 3 with a quote from Op, but so be it, maybe I was wrong and I apologize.
Do not forget xmess. ;)

No worries. In the future, please feel free to PM me or e-mail me at community AT mmorpg DOT com with any questions or concerns regarding moderation (same goes for everyone else).

Thanks!

EDIT: With that said, let's keep this discussion to ideas on how moderation can be improved (if you feel it needs to be). This is the sites suggestions forum and we're looking for feedback. Posts beyond this point that do not actually offer feedback to this end will be removed.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 665

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

12/06/11 12:00:44 AM#62
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Herodes

Mmh, thanks for finding. I was actually sure it was an page 2 or 3 with a quote from Op, but so be it, maybe I was wrong and I apologize.
Do not forget xmess. ;)

No worries. In the future, please feel free to PM me or e-mail me at community AT mmorpg DOT com with any questions or concerns regarding moderation (same goes for everyone else).

Thanks!

EDIT: With that said, let's keep this discussion to ideas on how moderation can be improved (if you feel it needs to be). This is the sites suggestions forum and we're looking for feedback. Posts beyond this point that do not actually offer feedback to this end will be removed.

I actually have some feedback.

This website is not a right, its a privelige, Even though it is free, there are priveleges in using it. There are rules, I know if I break a rule, I get disciplined, learn and move on. 

I am no angel, but I have improved.

However, to turn everyones attention to the blog section on the bottom of the front page. Yep, there, under the developer blogs there is the highlighted blog section. 3 of the more active blogs are mikeb's, paragus and teala. The other ones are dormant and one of them is a developer blog also. My point is I would like to see more active blogs there and even make it a bit competitve. Give players a reason to vie for that section by how many times they make it into the highest rated section. Design a system that would enable active bloggers to enter into the highlighted blog section and for dormant writers (raises hand) would leave if they haven't had any activity in a certain amount of time.

Blogging would become a bit more competitive and also giving the community members, myself included, a chance to take on some of the spotlight. I've read many great blogs here and then they fall into obscurity. If you, meaning the moderating community, give members like myself and young budding writers the opportunity to pull themselves away from the forums and create some good content for the website through blogs, everyone would benefit.

It would create a personal forum that players can voice their opinions in full form and be heard. I might even blow the dust off of MMO MONEY. No, I think that needs life-support more than a dusting, but it would motivate me more, I'm sure you would see more writers step up to plate. And yes, I even learned that there are rules and responsibilty for that as well.

Remember that mike?

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5461

12/06/11 12:05:26 AM#63
Originally posted by Inktomi
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Herodes

Mmh, thanks for finding. I was actually sure it was an page 2 or 3 with a quote from Op, but so be it, maybe I was wrong and I apologize.
Do not forget xmess. ;)

No worries. In the future, please feel free to PM me or e-mail me at community AT mmorpg DOT com with any questions or concerns regarding moderation (same goes for everyone else).

Thanks!

EDIT: With that said, let's keep this discussion to ideas on how moderation can be improved (if you feel it needs to be). This is the sites suggestions forum and we're looking for feedback. Posts beyond this point that do not actually offer feedback to this end will be removed.

I actually have some feedback.

This website is not a right, its a privelige, Even though it is free, there are priveleges in using it. There are rules, I know if I break a rule, I get disciplined, learn and move on. 

I am no angel, but I have improved.

However, to turn everyones attention to the blog section on the bottom of the front page. Yep, there, under the developer blogs there is the highlighted blog section. 3 of the more active blogs are mikeb's, paragus and teala. The other ones are dormant and one of them is a developer blog also. My point is I would like to see more active blogs there and even make it a bit competitve. Give players a reason to vie for that section by how many times they make it into the highest rated section. Design a system that would enable active bloggers to enter into the highlighted blog section and for dormant writers (raises hand) would leave if they haven't had any activity in a certain amount of time.

Blogging would become a bit more competitive and also giving the community members, myself included, a chance to take on some of the spotlight. I've read many great blogs here and then they fall into obscurity. If you, meaning the moderating community, give members like myself and young budding writers the opportunity to pull themselves away from the forums and create some good content for the website through blogs, everyone would benefit.

It would create a personal forum that players can voice their opinions in full form and be heard. I might even blow the dust off of MMO MONEY. No, I think that needs life-support more than a dusting, but it would motivate me more, I'm sure you would see more writers step up to plate. And yes, I even learned that there are rules and responsibilty for that as well.

Remember that mike?

I don't want to derail this thread as it is related to moderation, but I will say that the blog section not being up-to-date in terms of highlighted blogs and such is our fault. We can actually change who is showing up in that list at any time. If you haven't started your own blog feel free to do so.  If you feel you should be in the highlighted blog section and we've overlooked you, just shoot me a note and I'll take a look at it for you!

EDIT: I've gone ahead and removed all the inactive blogs from the highlighted blog roll. If you have any further feedback on blogs I strongly encourage you to create a new thread in this subforum. We're definitely looking for feedback in this area!

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 665

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

12/06/11 12:09:28 AM#64
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Inktomi
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Herodes

Mmh, thanks for finding. I was actually sure it was an page 2 or 3 with a quote from Op, but so be it, maybe I was wrong and I apologize.
Do not forget xmess. ;)

No worries. In the future, please feel free to PM me or e-mail me at community AT mmorpg DOT com with any questions or concerns regarding moderation (same goes for everyone else).

Thanks!

EDIT: With that said, let's keep this discussion to ideas on how moderation can be improved (if you feel it needs to be). This is the sites suggestions forum and we're looking for feedback. Posts beyond this point that do not actually offer feedback to this end will be removed.

I actually have some feedback.

This website is not a right, its a privelige, Even though it is free, there are priveleges in using it. There are rules, I know if I break a rule, I get disciplined, learn and move on. 

I am no angel, but I have improved.

However, to turn everyones attention to the blog section on the bottom of the front page. Yep, there, under the developer blogs there is the highlighted blog section. 3 of the more active blogs are mikeb's, paragus and teala. The other ones are dormant and one of them is a developer blog also. My point is I would like to see more active blogs there and even make it a bit competitve. Give players a reason to vie for that section by how many times they make it into the highest rated section. Design a system that would enable active bloggers to enter into the highlighted blog section and for dormant writers (raises hand) would leave if they haven't had any activity in a certain amount of time.

Blogging would become a bit more competitive and also giving the community members, myself included, a chance to take on some of the spotlight. I've read many great blogs here and then they fall into obscurity. If you, meaning the moderating community, give members like myself and young budding writers the opportunity to pull themselves away from the forums and create some good content for the website through blogs, everyone would benefit.

It would create a personal forum that players can voice their opinions in full form and be heard. I might even blow the dust off of MMO MONEY. No, I think that needs life-support more than a dusting, but it would motivate me more, I'm sure you would see more writers step up to plate. And yes, I even learned that there are rules and responsibilty for that as well.

Remember that mike?

I don't want to derail this thread as it is related to moderation, but I will say that the blog section not being up-to-date in terms of highlighted blogs and such is our fault, we can actually change who is showing up in that list at any time. If you haven't started your own blog feel free to do so.  If you feel you should be in the highlighted blog section and we've overlooked you, just shoot me a note and I'll take a look at it for you!

Sorry, I though this meant moderation of the website, not just the indiviual forums. But I do still stand on that this is a privelege and there has to be some type of moderation, because without it, would fall into absolute chaos. 

Thanks mike. Shooting you a note now.

  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 2065

Posts deleted: 12589457

12/06/11 12:25:15 AM#65

I agree that moderation is way biased at least. Plenty of examples i which the mods have deleted single posts obviously without reading them or comprehending the given context, oftentimes leaving the replies and follow-up postings containing trolling and personal attack in place. Like just recently we had this guy giving away a game key for free and getting banned for doing so, what would not have happened if the mod had actually read his post.

Many blueposts display that moderation is often a matter of opinion of that certain mod, like that very common "Stop the baiting, guys" that in fact can get applied to about every provocative question.

"It's not your opinion, but the way you display it" -yes, that's pretty much the wild card for moderation here, but the majority of long time users here know that it doesn't always work this way. Way too often i saw threads getting deleted, containing a well thought out and displayed in a decent manner but unpopular opinion. Many times the user getting banned.

 

However, if you want to make a change, you can start right here with restoring the original discussion ;)

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/333837/Datamined-info-on-17-18.html

I agree that we all got carried away a bit in cluding the OP, but on the other hand it's inevitable that when new content for Rift gets presented, people start to ask things like "ok, but where is the game heading to now?" or "is a new raid enough against game x launching?"

If someone would have opened another thread "Rift 1.7 vs SWTOR" it would probably have gotten locked with a hint to keep the discussion in that already existing thread and to not start another thread on the same topic.

However, this was one of the few discussions going pro and con without people starting to attack each other, handing out side blows, bating or trolling. Too bad, alot of well thought out postings got deleted, many still including good on-topic stuff. Good example of moderation just to enforce the forum rules, without any discernment about what's actually going on in there.

 

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5461

12/06/11 1:18:37 AM#66
Originally posted by VoIgore

I agree that moderation is way biased at least. Plenty of examples i which the mods have deleted single posts obviously without reading them or comprehending the given context, oftentimes leaving the replies and follow-up postings containing trolling and personal attack in place. Like just recently we had this guy giving away a game key for free and getting banned for doing so, what would not have happened if the mod had actually read his post.

Many blueposts display that moderation is often a matter of opinion of that certain mod, like that very common "Stop the baiting, guys" that in fact can get applied to about every provocative question.

"It's not your opinion, but the way you display it" -yes, that's pretty much the wild card for moderation here, but the majority of long time users here know that it doesn't always work this way. Way too often i saw threads getting deleted, containing a well thought out and displayed in a decent manner but unpopular opinion. Many times the user getting banned.

 

However, if you want to make a change, you can start right here with restoring the original discussion ;)

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/333837/Datamined-info-on-17-18.html

I agree that we all got carried away a bit in cluding the OP, but on the other hand it's inevitable that when new content for Rift gets presented, people start to ask things like "ok, but where is the game heading to now?" or "is a new raid enough against game x launching?"

If someone would have opened another thread "Rift 1.7 vs SWTOR" it would probably have gotten locked with a hint to keep the discussion in that already existing thread and to not start another thread on the same topic.

However, this was one of the few discussions going pro and con without people starting to attack each other, handing out side blows, bating or trolling. Too bad, alot of well thought out postings got deleted, many still including good on-topic stuff. Good example of moderation just to enforce the forum rules, without any discernment about what's actually going on in there.

That is the main function of moderators -- to enforce forum rules, so yes, offtopic posts will be removed. If you'd like to continue that discussion go ahead and create a thread for it (or even blog about it!).  As for examples of bias or overlooked trolling posts and such, feel free to shoot me an e-mail with links (please do not post here) and I'll take a look into it.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Netspook

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/01/07
Posts: 1440

12/06/11 2:18:06 AM#67
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Terranah

MMORPG.com is 99 % opinion based.  Subtract all the people who have negative and positive opinions about a game and you have....crickets chirping.

 

Also, if you go too heavy with the ban hammer you risk losing credibility in my opinion.  For instance, some people freak out if a guy makes a few negative posts and people complain.  But if he makes a few positive posts no one complains.  After awhile it starts to look like critical thought is being censored in favor of adulation.

 

We aren't dictated by complaints, I wouldn't worry about that. Complaints just give us cause to investigate, our ultimate determination is based on our Rules of Conduct and moderation protocols.

We want people to share their opinions, negative and positive, that is why we have a discussion forum. However, we don't want the environment to become toxic, and all it takes are a few highly (and frequently) negative users taking up residence in a given subforum to completely disrupt the environment there. That is what we are looking to curb, and that is why you see "Notices of Increased Moderation" in a number of forums. These forums are considered problematic and given extra moderator attention. Even so, we still can't find everything and we ask you guys to help by reporting posts/threads. Action isn't taken simply because something is reported, as I mentioned earlier, it simply gives us cause to check it out.

We realize that as a discussion forum things sometimes get heated and users may have lapses of judgment now and then; we don't take harsh action against this sort of thing. However, for repeat offenders, we definitely don't want them sticking around if they aren't learning from their warnings and temp bans.  Believe me, if you're willing to reconsider your behavior I am more than willing to work with you, but those who show complete disdain for our RoC and disregard their infractions will find themselves banned pretty quickly.

EDIT: And yes, we do check post history. :)

 

This is all fine, but I wonder a little about what you mean by "negative users"? I hope you're not only talking about posters constantly making negative comments about game x, because imo, they're not the worst problem here.

The worst ones (again: imo), are the fanboys. You can't ask a slightly critical question in certain forums (mainly very hyped games' sections), without being flamed for being negative, a troll, not knowing what you're talking about, told to get back to wow, etc. They are the main reason why good debates often are not possible at all. Frankly, I have the impression that this problem is completely ignored, and that only haters are considered trolls.

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5461

12/06/11 2:49:50 AM#68
Originally posted by Netspook
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Terranah

MMORPG.com is 99 % opinion based.  Subtract all the people who have negative and positive opinions about a game and you have....crickets chirping.

 

Also, if you go too heavy with the ban hammer you risk losing credibility in my opinion.  For instance, some people freak out if a guy makes a few negative posts and people complain.  But if he makes a few positive posts no one complains.  After awhile it starts to look like critical thought is being censored in favor of adulation.

 

We aren't dictated by complaints, I wouldn't worry about that. Complaints just give us cause to investigate, our ultimate determination is based on our Rules of Conduct and moderation protocols.

We want people to share their opinions, negative and positive, that is why we have a discussion forum. However, we don't want the environment to become toxic, and all it takes are a few highly (and frequently) negative users taking up residence in a given subforum to completely disrupt the environment there. That is what we are looking to curb, and that is why you see "Notices of Increased Moderation" in a number of forums. These forums are considered problematic and given extra moderator attention. Even so, we still can't find everything and we ask you guys to help by reporting posts/threads. Action isn't taken simply because something is reported, as I mentioned earlier, it simply gives us cause to check it out.

We realize that as a discussion forum things sometimes get heated and users may have lapses of judgment now and then; we don't take harsh action against this sort of thing. However, for repeat offenders, we definitely don't want them sticking around if they aren't learning from their warnings and temp bans.  Believe me, if you're willing to reconsider your behavior I am more than willing to work with you, but those who show complete disdain for our RoC and disregard their infractions will find themselves banned pretty quickly.

EDIT: And yes, we do check post history. :)

 

This is all fine, but I wonder a little about what you mean by "negative users"? I hope you're not only talking about posters constantly making negative comments about game x, because imo, they're not the worst problem here.

The worst ones (again: imo), are the fanboys. You can't ask a slightly critical question in certain forums (mainly very hyped games' sections), without being flamed for being negative, a troll, not knowing what you're talking about, told to get back to wow, etc. They are the main reason why good debates often are not possible at all. Frankly, I have the impression that this problem is completely ignored, and that only haters are considered trolls.

So, in the "fanboys" example you cited, personal insults (Flaming) or remarks like "Go back to WoW" (Trolling) would be considered blatant violations of our RoC and are easily actionable by moderators. We're all generally familiar with that, so it doesn't require any additional explanation. Report such posts and a moderator will look into it. If you aren't satisfied with how your report was handled (or not handled), get in touch with me and I'll take a look myself.

The reason I mentioned "negative users" has to do with the fact we welcome both positive/negative opinion on the boards, but there is some nuance involved. It's not a violation to just have a negative opinion on something (as long as you aren't intentionally posting it to upset other users). However, if you're posting negatively on a very frequent basis in a particular game subforum but are otherwise in-line with our RoC it can become a problem, and falls under our Trolling rule.

At some point everyone involved gets that you don't like X game; it's not necessary to post this in every thread regarding the game. Our RoC explicitly describes this:

"If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."

As our RoC states, it can become disruptive and toxic to the overall environment and creates unnecessary hostility amongst those who just want to discuss the game, at which point it is considered trolling and we have to do something about it.

Hope that explains things adequately. :)

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1100

12/06/11 10:33:50 PM#69
Originally posted by MikeB
 

So, in the "fanboys" example you cited, personal insults (Flaming) or remarks like "Go back to WoW" (Trolling) would be considered blatant violations of our RoC and are easily actionable by moderators. We're all generally familiar with that, so it doesn't require any additional explanation. Report such posts and a moderator will look into it. If you aren't satisfied with how your report was handled (or not handled), get in touch with me and I'll take a look myself.

The reason I mentioned "negative users" has to do with the fact we welcome both positive/negative opinion on the boards, but there is some nuance involved. It's not a violation to just have a negative opinion on something (as long as you aren't intentionally posting it to upset other users). However, if you're posting negatively on a very frequent basis in a particular game subforum but are otherwise in-line with our RoC it can become a problem, and falls under our Trolling rule.

At some point everyone involved gets that you don't like X game; it's not necessary to post this in every thread regarding the game. Our RoC explicitly describes this:

"If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."

As our RoC states, it can become disruptive and toxic to the overall environment and creates unnecessary hostility amongst those who just want to discuss the game, at which point it is considered trolling and we have to do something about it.

Hope that explains things adequately. :)

My beef with this is that you don't do this both ways. You only moderate the guy going around spewing his "negative" opinion. Why not also moderate the guy who goes around spewing his "positive" opinion. There are two extremes here, and I see them both. Both are annoying, and both detract from debate. There is no need for one person to reply 4000 times in the same thread about how much the game rules, and then go around in all the other threads looking for so called "trolls" and doing the same thing. Why is this acceptable behavior? Seems trollish to me, and is far more common. Probably, because its not moderated. Look at any thread in the SWTOR forum, and you will find the same people spewing the same thing over and over. 

My point is some fanbois are not there to discuss the game. They are there to crush dissenters, and report users for frivilous things(which should also be an offense).

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5461

12/07/11 4:22:07 PM#70

Again, this thread isn't for appealing infractions. If you've received an infraction (ban or warning) simply reply to the autogenerated e-mail and I'll be glad to assist you. If you have any other questions you can contact me at community AT mmorpg DOT com.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  Netspook

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/01/07
Posts: 1440

12/13/11 12:44:32 AM#71
Originally posted by MikeB

Again, this thread isn't for appealing infractions. If you've received an infraction (ban or warning) simply reply to the autogenerated e-mail and I'll be glad to assist you. If you have any other questions you can contact me at community AT mmorpg DOT com.

 

This has to be a reply to Golelorn, since his post is the only one after your last one.

Question: did you even read what he wrote? It was NOT about appealing infractions.

Summary of my impression, from this reply and your reply to me:

Fanboys are completely accepted as long as they don't flame or harrass, and are welcome to spew their fanatism in every single thread, over and over again. Any complaints about them will be ignored. Haters, or negative posters, may state their negative view once or twice, and be done with it. Ok, at least we know, then: Spamming and derailing is only bad if you have a certain view of things.

  Vryheid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 471

12/13/11 12:46:48 AM#72

I thought that it was a given that there are no rules against stupidity on this board.

  Netspook

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/01/07
Posts: 1440

12/13/11 12:58:22 AM#73
Originally posted by Vryheid

I thought that it was a given that there are no rules against stupidity on this board.

 

Depends if the stupidity is considered negative or positive, appearently.

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7436

"Really officer, they're herbs."

12/13/11 12:59:16 AM#74
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by marinrider

If a person feels a ban was unnecessary then they can contact the mod that issued the ban or community@mmorpg.com (I believe is the address) and try to get it sorted out.  The mods are reasonable people when you actually talk to them.  Its the internet and it can be difficult to illustrate your meaning and posts can eaisly come across as bashing, baiting, or trolling without the poster intending it to.

I think there already is a moderation of moderators in the sense that MikeB is the head mod and then there are other mods.  If you feel you were wrongly banned and the mod that issued it just wont let up then you can go up the chain.  If even he agrees with the ban then I would look back at the post and see what might have caused it. 

I've recieved warnings on a few of my posts that at the time felt okay to post and all good, but upon further review (when I calmed down) I noticed I was trending it to "baiting."

Sums it up pretty well.

As Community Manager, I am in charge of our moderators here. If you have an issue with a particular moderator, a moderator's action, or would like to appeal an infraction given to you by a moderator, simply get in touch with me and I'll be glad to assist. If you just have feedback you can send it my way as well, or post it here in Site Suggestions.


I can attest to this, MikeB is very upfront and gracious when you need to discuss issues of moderation with him.  I have found that though some mods are a little over zealous at times, this websites forums are some of the better moderated forums you'll find anywhere on the Internet.   I think that is why I stick around.   :)    Kudos to MikeB and the gang for doing a great job!

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