Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Robsolf

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  There are:

8 advanced classes

8 different stories

There are easily as many replayability options in TOR, even with mirrored classes, as there are any other game out there.  Mike B.'s concern about Soldier/Guardian playing just like BH/Tech is like me being upset that a Tauren and Human Warrior play the same in WoW.

I'm an altoholic, and I STILL don't have 8 maxed out characters in any MMO I've played.  Cripe, I don't even have 4 maxed in any game I've played.

If 8 isn't enough, Mr. Van Patten, then no MMO to date has made you happy.

No, that is not the same.  There is a difference between both classes being represented amongst multiple factions (thus potentially playable by multiple races) and two different "classes" having the same mechanics.  You would expect the Tauren and Human Warriors to offer similar play - they're both Warriors.  One would not expect a Trooper and a Bounty Hunter to play the same.

With that mindset, why would you expect a Tauren Warrior to work EXACTLY THE SAME as a Human Warrior?  Just because the game came first, doesn't mean this makes sense.  See what I'm doing, here? 

I picture a Trooper.  I picture a Bounty Hunter.  They use the same mechanics?  WTF?  I try to picture it...it just rubs me the wrong way.  Republic Trooper and Imperial Trooper?  Sure.  Imperial Bounty Hunter and Republic Bounty Hunter?  Sure.  Republic Trooper and Imperial Bounty Hunter?  WTF, man?  (Yes, I'm using the term Imperial Bounty Hunter even though it is just Bounty Hunter).

I'm addressing where Mike B. says that at lvl 50, you'll know exactly how to play a BH, if you've played a Soldier, or vice versa.

You're talking from more of a lore perspective, and I see your point to an extent.  You might expect more guerrilla tactics from a BH than you would a Soldier, but on the other hand, both might be trained to "bring em back alive".  It's all in individual interpretation, I suppose. 

Not every BH is Boba Fett, and Soldiers are certainly not "Stormtroopers, only better".  Think Best of the Best.  The guys Navy Seals/Special Forces would look up to.  From that perspective, getting things done by any means necessary is a shared trait.  What happens when the job is done?  That's where they part ways.  Their purpose and their cause are different, but their means are not so different.

WoW has 10 classes - I only played a week into Cata, so I only took one toon to 85 - my Lock.  I had an 80 Pally, Shammy, Warrior, and DK.  I had a 75 Priest, 72 Hunter, 62 Druid, and a 47 Mage.  I had several other alts of those classes, though the highest does not really count since it was just another level 70 DK.

Up til' TOR, I've never seen much of a reason to max more than one toon out.  I'm not a fan of raid grinding.  But I do love trying out different classes to suit my mood.  Even with mirrored classes, TOR provides plenty of incentive for that.

You might not consider me an altoholic.  I have 8 on LotRO.  10-11 on WoW.  6-7 on AoC.  A bunch on most games before, save for those alt-limited.

I will be here on pre-launch, and I'll create 8 characters on that day.  And they'll all be played to the end.

Originally posted by Prototype2k

As an avid mmo player for 11 years now I'm extremely excited about mirrored classes. Too many games come out with unique unbalanced "equivalent" classes. As any gamer here can tell you it ruins games and causes too many people to reroll or quit; that creates a greater imbalance in the game itself with lopsided availability of classes. My appreciation so much of the mirrored classes has become simplified to what side do I want to roll "good" or "evil". Which storyline do I want to try, and I appreciate that. I think the individual ability lines for each class offers great diversity and caters to multiple playstyles which then creates the different feel and roll in the game itself. If you've tried multiple specs and have actually leveled up to 50 you would then understand how different each line is. I'm delighted at the availability and variety they are offering and look forward to launch.

So it does not bother you in the least to know that there are Republic Agents, Imperial Troopers, Imperial Smugglers, and Republic Bounty Hunters... but that you cannot play them because they're only NPCs?

Originally posted by Puuk

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Those of you who are against mirriored classes, are the minority, plain and simple... 

 

Really? And how did you come to that factual conclusion? I'd venture to say that the majority of modern MMORPG players are looking for uniqueness - something different. Having mirrored classes is counter to uniqueness. Classes don't have to be so different that it requires an MBA to fully grok the class abiities, but some differentiation would be nice, especially in a Star Wars game.

How did i come to that conclusion, well by looking at every other MMO, the same way bioware did, or did you think they did zero research, actual research before creating thier game?

As I said in my post I'm delighted by the variety provided to me. Still have to wait and see what changes are made and what's added down the line. Great thing about video games is there are plenty out there to find what each individual is looking for in a game.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by VirusDancer

No, that is not the same.  There is a difference between both classes being represented amongst multiple factions (thus potentially playable by multiple races) and two different "classes" having the same mechanics.  You would expect the Tauren and Human Warriors to offer similar play - they're both Warriors.  One would not expect a Trooper and a Bounty Hunter to play the same.

With that mindset, why would you expect a Tauren Warrior to work EXACTLY THE SAME as a Human Warrior?  Just because the game came first, doesn't mean this makes sense.  See what I'm doing, here? 

I would expect a Warrior to play like a Warrior.  Otherwise, both would not be called Warrior.  They would be called something different.  Much like if something has a different name, I would not expect it to be the same as something else.

I expect a Honda Accord and a Toyota Camry to work the same, since they're both cars.  I would not expect a Honda Accord and a Honda Shadow to work the same, since one is a car and one is a motorcycle.

While I'm not an ARAC Purist, for the most part - ARAC tends to work.  It's worked since the 70's...

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by VirusDancer

I picture a Trooper.  I picture a Bounty Hunter.  They use the same mechanics?  WTF?  I try to picture it...it just rubs me the wrong way.  Republic Trooper and Imperial Trooper?  Sure.  Imperial Bounty Hunter and Republic Bounty Hunter?  Sure.  Republic Trooper and Imperial Bounty Hunter?  WTF, man?  (Yes, I'm using the term Imperial Bounty Hunter even though it is just Bounty Hunter).

I'm addressing where Mike B. says that at lvl 50, you'll know exactly how to play a BH, if you've played a Soldier, or vice versa.

You're talking from more of a lore perspective, and I see your point to an extent.  You might expect more guerrilla tactics from a BH than you would a Soldier, but on the other hand, both might be trained to "bring em back alive".  It's all in individual interpretation, I suppose. 

Not every BH is Boba Fett, and Soldiers are certainly not "Stormtroopers, only better".  Think Best of the Best.  The guys Navy Seals/Special Forces would look up to.  From that perspective, getting things done by any means necessary is a shared trait.  What happens when the job is done?  That's where they part ways.  Their purpose and their cause are different, but their means are not so different.

 

Yes, I'm looking at it from the point of playing the game from 1 to 50... not looking at the game lobby aspect.

Oddly enough, what you're describing better suits pairing the Smugger with the Bounty Hunter and the Agent with the Trooper.  Mechanics - it is BH/Trooper and Agent/Smuggler.  Style - it is BH/Smuggler and Agent/Trooper.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by VirusDancer

WoW has 10 classes - I only played a week into Cata, so I only took one toon to 85 - my Lock.  I had an 80 Pally, Shammy, Warrior, and DK.  I had a 75 Priest, 72 Hunter, 62 Druid, and a 47 Mage.  I had several other alts of those classes, though the highest does not really count since it was just another level 70 DK.

Up til' TOR, I've never seen much of a reason to max more than one toon out.  I'm not a fan of raid grinding.  But I do love trying out different classes to suit my mood.  Even with mirrored classes, TOR provides plenty of incentive for that.

You might not consider me an altoholic.  I have 8 on LotRO.  10-11 on WoW.  6-7 on AoC.  A bunch on most games before, save for those alt-limited.

I will be here on pre-launch, and I'll create 8 characters on that day.  And they'll all be played to the end.

 

I have not raided since Vanilla WoW...almost 5 years.  Definitely not my thing in the least.

As for your creating 8 characters...why 8?  Just for the 8 personal stories (space-barring the Hell out of the world things you'd have already seen multiple times)...?  Not for the 16 classes..?

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by Puuk

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Those of you who are against mirriored classes, are the minority, plain and simple... 

Really? And how did you come to that factual conclusion? I'd venture to say that the majority of modern MMORPG players are looking for uniqueness - something different. Having mirrored classes is counter to uniqueness. Classes don't have to be so different that it requires an MBA to fully grok the class abiities, but some differentiation would be nice, especially in a Star Wars game.

How did i come to that conclusion, well by looking at every other MMO, the same way bioware did, or did you think they did zero research, actual research before creating thier game?

So you (and BioWare) determined that the people against mirrored classes are in the minority because the vast majority of games do not have them?

Originally posted by VirusDancer

I would expect a Warrior to play like a Warrior.  Otherwise, both would not be called Warrior.  They would be called something different.  Much like if something has a different name, I would not expect it to be the same as something else.

But that would be you responding like a computer RPG player would.  You BOUGHT INTO the WoW premise that when a human swings a sword, it does the exact same damage as a hulking beast of a Minotaur would.  Where nothing in lore, or even in DnD up to that point would make that same assumption.  Not only that, they would use the exact same techniques that a human being would, despite the fact that in reality, HUMANS don't even use the same techniques as other humans...

... or you accept that Taurens, despite being much bigger than humans, would forsake their raw power to fight just like a human would.

Yes, I'm looking at it from the point of playing the game from 1 to 50... not looking at the game lobby aspect.

Oddly enough, what you're describing better suits pairing the Smugger with the Bounty Hunter and the Agent with the Trooper.  Mechanics - it is BH/Trooper and Agent/Smuggler.  Style - it is BH/Smuggler and Agent/Trooper.

In general style?  Sure.  But NOT in fighting style.  Agents and Smugglers will no doubt be the "sneaky" types.  They'll be the ones to exploit weaknesses to take enemies down from the shadows.  Neither is about direct combat.

Soldiers and Bounty Hunters?  Peace/Submission through superior firepower.  That's the way I see it.

 

I have not raided since Vanilla WoW...almost 5 years.  Definitely not my thing in the least.

On that, we agree.  I won't submit to the skinner box of diminished returns.

As for your creating 8 characters...why 8?  Just for the 8 personal stories (space-barring the Hell out of the world things you'd have already seen multiple times)...?  Not for the 16 classes..?

I've tried every class/story in closed beta, and want to see how they ALL end.  Some are better than others, but all were good, so far(got to 10 in all).  As I outlined above, I'll probably do opposing AC's for all, so even combat-wise I'll have different experiences each time.

If I'm still itching after doing them all, I will do more.

 

So who does the Inquisitor mirror??

Originally posted by jonathon82

So who does the Inquisitor mirror??

Consular.

Knight - Warrior

Consular - Inquisitor

Smuggler - Agent

Trooper - Bounty Hunter

yep, thats right. Forgot about that guy

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Keep in mind that blizzard tried unique classes in their game and people chucked up a big stink about it, horde players were saying paladins are op and alliance were saying shaman are op so Blizzard caved in and now everyone has exactly the same crappy classes. I played a bounty hunter and a trooper in the beta and while some situations they felt similar they are both different classes which have different feels to them. In the end all the classes are the same, just numbers in a spreadsheet.

Originally posted by tank017

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

 

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Unfortunately we all know how the balancing act would be between class variety's....

You can blame Players because there non-stop whining about how this is not balanced and that's not balanced is what leads to the nerf's for pvp and the nerf's for pve, etc...etc...etc... 

This happen's in every MMO with pvp it's really much easier to just make mirrors which is sad but true....

Originally posted by tank017

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

 

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Between 2 players...

Tekken:  Does Bryan Fury vs. Bryan Fury get dull?  Only when one player is constantly winning...

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by tank017

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

 

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Between 2 players...

Tekken:  Does Bryan Fury vs. Bryan Fury get dull?  Only when one player is constantly winning...

Tekken is a whole other ball park...

They're not completely mirrored, consular uses force to pick up things to throw, inq shoots lighting...I mean it does the same thing, but doesn't look the same at least hehe.

Edit: At least now people can't cry about imbalace of sides...although I'm sure there will still be crybabies QQ'ing about some kind of imbalance lol.

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by tank017

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

 

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Between 2 players...

Tekken:  Does Bryan Fury vs. Bryan Fury get dull?  Only when one player is constantly winning...

Tekken is a whole other ball park...

 

No.  Particularly not in the context of this thread.

Edit: and most importantly, in terms of an MMO.

Well  think about a chess game. You need different pieces to make an awesome and complex game? No, all are the same just with different colors.All that matter then is the player.At least that's my opinion.

Originally posted by stonedeye

Well  think about a chess game. You need different pieces to make an awesome and complex game? No, all are the same just with different colors.All that matter then is the player.At least that's my opinion.

No way, man.  You need one team's pawn to attack forward but not backward, and the other to attack backward but not forward or it is total fail...

/snarkgasm

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by tank017

Yep,I put up a poll the other day about this very subject..

 

I can see why MMO companies would take the mirrored route as it eliminates a lot of headache.At the same time,I think its pretty damn borrrrringggg.I want variety in my classes,I want them to be different in every way,if that makes it unbalanced somewhat then Im willing to live with it.

Between 2 players...

Tekken:  Does Bryan Fury vs. Bryan Fury get dull?  Only when one player is constantly winning...

Tekken is a whole other ball park...

 

No.  Particularly not in the context of this thread.

Edit: and most importantly, in terms of an MMO.

Fine...

If I was playing Bryan Fury,then yes,I'd rather be fighting someone other than myself.Does fighting a mirror image of myself get dull?

to me it does.