Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

The corporations and individuals who aren't getting involved with the wardecs and ship fights, and those that stay in hisec, are still participating in a PvP of sorts.  It's economic PvP, where they try to earn relatively large amounts of ISK when compared to their fellow players.

Very few people would play EVE on a subscription basis if all they wanted to do was mine and run missions as a single player or in a small cooperative group.  That is the realm of single-player games, and is not EVE's forte at all.  Please don't pretend that the majority of EVE's playerbase are timid antisocial grinders.  It isn't the truth at all.

EDIT:  All functional sandboxes (and even most of the disfunctional ones) have zones that are relatively safe.  There aren't thousands of complaints from people getting killed and looted within these safe zones.  The complaints are all about them leaving the safe zones, and expecting to be able to find something to do there other than be someone's prey.  Most of the complaints actually arise from a lack of imagination, rather than actual misbehavior on the part of a veteran player.  The players are just wandering around in unsafe areas without a purpose, and that is sure to get them killed.

More people that don't belong in an MMORPG, let alone a FFA sandbox.

There is a significant difference between financial competition and what is commonly accepted as defined by "PvP" (ie. Being killed by other players, possibly with the loss of assets and advancement).  If that was PvP then even WoW is quite the FFA PvP MMO as everyone competes for gold, gear and achievements (among other things like rare pets/mounts).

Almost any player I've met will tolerate not being the tycoon of his server or not having the latest Tier 293 armor set, but a significant number will not tolerate being ganked (doubly so if the gank results in item/xp loss).  In general a vast majority of the player base does not tolerate loss of any kind (there's a reason XP-loss-on-death systems have all but disappeared).  This is even more true when they incurr loss outside stepping into specific, minority areas.  For most having some safe areas is not nearly enough because they will feel that ALL other areas are excluded to them and thus feel the game marginalizes them.

No, most aren't timid anti-social types.  However a lot are risk-averse types.  I can tell you I've met many players who were unwilling to go go to WH space or living in 0.0.  And many others who did go to 0.0 tended to suddenly become suspiciously scarce as soon as the risk to their mining / ratting in otherwise 'protected' 0.0 showed any sign of rising.  Plus, this is not counting all the many others who don't even give EVE a chance becuase it's FFA PVP.  I've met more than a few folks in WoW and other MMOs I played who complained about how they lack teamwork or freedom to affect the world - of all of them most dismissed EVE as soon as they realized that a lot of the action and freedom is in fully PvP space.  Of all I tried to `sell` on EVE, only 2 have ever played it for a while and only one stuck with it.

I won't argue that most MMO players nowadays aren't truly fit for MMOs and probably less so for a sandbox.  However this is the customer base we have.  If we want to see successful, polished, AAA sandboxes happening then we need to be willing to compromise with the masses that can bring their $15/mo.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by rav3n2

Like many ppl have said I believe lack of budget tbh, FFA PVP aside which is NOT needed but would be nice in some consentual form ( enter a siege field etc.. ), Mortal Online and Darkfall just fall short of expectation, lack of budge, proper management, and experience.

That is the sad reality, if someone like blizzard builds a sandbox its not a guarantee that would be a success but it would be polished, good design and would deliver on the features. 

The lack of budget and catering to a niche group of PvP'ers kind of goes hand in hand. As much as you may like PvP you can't have it both ways. Either FFA PvP or a big budget tripple A title people will actually play.

He didn't talk about FFA PvP, he was talking about consentual PvP.

PvP in general is not a niche market.  Not even close.  It also doesn't necessarily involve player killing, all PvP stands for is player vs. player game mechanics, which many games have in other forms.  The primary PvP going on in EVE, for example, is economic PvP, even though the game DOES have FFA PvP and is still quite popular and successful.

A lack of any type of interesting PvP (metagamer gear and stat races are excluded) is a surefire way to cut your prospective player numbers in half.  Please stop spreading the complete misinformation that PvP is a small niche that nobody plays.  Except for cooperative PvE MMOs, there are very few games where the primary mode of playing is not a player vs. player system.

Forced PvP which is essentially the only thing sandbox mmos offer these days is a niche mechanic like it or not. It becomes even worse when there is a penalty of lost items attached. Safe-zones does not cut it if experiencing the full sandbox game, also involve moving out of those areas, getting ganked and losing what you have. Then you have the recipy of an extremely niche market and mechanic

Other than that PvP is not niche in itself. Other factors have to be present. If PvP was niche on its own then we wouldn't have a FPS market.

These Hardcore PvP types really does shoot themselves in the foot by demanding to be catered to. Nobody is going to invest big in a game that essentially alienate those that are interested in creating and building over PvP. If you take a singleplayer game such as Minecraft then you can see there is a huge market potential outside ganking players as soon as they leave the safe area. Make a MMO that cater to that sandbox group and you will see a shift in quality, population and funding for sandbox games

So lets sum it up. You may alienate the entire hardcore pvp sandbox crowd cutting them down to zero percent. The gain from people not interested in that type of gameplay will more than make up for it. That's why you are called a niche group.

If you really believe FFA PvP players represents the majority of those interested in sandbox mmos you really are deluding yourself. I'm not saying that to insult you. That's just a fact.

I like many of the ideals of sandbox games, but personally, I feel like if I log out for any extended period of time, all I have built up and accomplished will be gone when I next log in. I could be wrong, as this has kept me from even trying sandbox games, but it is my perception.

The easiest answer is that the people who play mmorpgs don't want to play them.  I suppose the question then is why.  I think the answer lies in that most people who currently play mmorpgs are not the same people playing 10 years ago.  Newer players are more console players and older players tend to be more familiar with MUDs and PnP rpgs. 

As been mentioned before, what a sandbox mmorpg is can be disputed.  Probably the best way to see things is on a sliding scale.  You move up or down by the type of features that are there:

Sandbox- A style of game without any predefined objectives.  One where the players create their own rules in terms of social structure.  It is defined by the ability to make long term contributions to the world.  Eve could be an example of this. 

Themepark- A style of game where players can participate in what the world has to offer.  There are limitations on where you can go and whyat you can do, often based on selections done at character creation.  You can no real control over the content and annot make any long term contributions to the game.  WoW is an example of this.

MMORPGs fluctatute between these extremes.  Star Wars Galaxies had many features of a Sandbox, but there were limits placed because of canon issues.  DAOC is mostly a themepark, but you could change parts of the world temporarily.  WAR restricted PvE much more - you just follow a road from A to B - but you could "win."

What has happened is that most current players want a game they can feel like they are making progess.  They view the game just like any other game.  It is not about assuming a role and playing out your individual goals, it is about leveling up and getting gear.  These are simple easy to define linear progressions. 

The cost it takes to build an mmorpg, especially one with lots of "sandbox" feautres. is not worth it due to the small audience.  SWG had a chance to change that.  It was moving towards more MUD-like content.  The problem is that the sanboxish style did not suit Star Wars players and the canon limitations limited the sandbox features.  Not to mention the delays, bugs, etc.  WoW came along and provided a game experience as a game.  It moved away from the rpg direction.  It brought in a huge amount of people who had never played mmorpg before (console gamers).  In doing so, the market has decided that is the audience they need to get and games cater to them. 

Because the options fall into one of the two categories:

- Full loot FFA PvP

Without organisation and commitment you will suffer.

- Other choices

Eve. But its so far detached from humanoids on land that its a meaningless option to some. Is Ryzom even still kicking about?

The problem isn't that sandboxes don't work.  The problem is that stong developers don't typically make them.  Look at the recent sandboxes out there

Earthrise - small dev team

Darkfall - terribad dev team

Perpetium - small dev team

Xsyon - one person dev team

Theres no doubt that its hard to make a sandbox succeed, but its not because the people don't want them...its because larger developers want to make the safe move, the safe move is a theme park, very little chance involved.  In a sandbox, you get one shot to make it work...after launch, if it didn't make it...its done.

Look at eve for example, they did well making their game...and they have a very successful mmo...we just need better dev teams working on sandboxes.  Archeage and tera look quite promising, not full sandboxes...but very sandboxy.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Wow, people are dense.

Right now there are basically only 2 MMO success stories (not counting F2P business-oriented scams or asian markets).  One is WoW, whose subscriber base is going down.  The other is EvE, whose subscriber base has been going up or holding steady for a very long time.

The actual question is why do themepark MMOs fail so often.

Think you need to wake up to reality. The only MMO that isn't a success is an MMO that is shut down. Shadowbane, Ashuran's Call, The Matrix, Tabula Rasa... those have been shut down. Those weren't a success.

Only two successful models? So... EQ wasn't successful. Ultima Online wasn't successful. Planetside wasn't successful. Neither was City of Heroes/Villains... yeah that game bombed so hard too..

You're right! There's only been two successful mmo's ever!

Wow, people need to grow a brain.

Originally posted by vader999

Because the options fall into one of the two categories:

- Full loot FFA PvP

Without organisation and commitment you will suffer.

- Other choices

Eve. But its so far detached from humanoids on land that its a meaningless option to some. Is Ryzom even still kicking about?

 Yes Ryzom is still out there, but I think that alot of people aren't giving it its fair share due to the pvp being second hand. I will say that its world design is kind of wierd, but I will also say that its still the best sandbox mmo out there. Vanguard while being more of a sandpark has some good sandbox elements to it as well.

Both games sheould be looked at heavily by true sandboxers (who know that sandbox is not pvp)

Who said they didn't work? Or should the question have read, "Why Sandbox MMO's aren't as popular as WoW?"

Pardon me for being a noob to the MMO experience.  Lemme give you a brief background on my Internet MMO XP.

My first ever MMO was SWG.  I finally grew up enough to accept my inner nerd and came out of the cyber-larp closet to my very dissapointed friends... "Sorry guys, I love Star Wars and video games".  Hell, i'm married now and can do wtf I want with my free time.  RPGs never really got my juices flowing (except Mass Effect and ME2 which are the greatest games of all time) quite like Counter-Strike did.  CS was amazing, because it gave me the feeling I had missed from back when I played high-caliber sports.  That super competitive atmosphere where you have a team, strategy, you have to train and then perform at the the top of your game especially in clutch moments... AWESOME.  But, it was way too filled with obvious cheaters and sometimes Cyber-Athletes give themselves way too much credit.  We are, afterall, just sitting in a chair, clicking buttons!

So, I went in search of a cyber world where I could disappear form reality for a few hours a day and pretend I am some death weilding powerhouse of pain.  Oh yeah.  I chose a game called A Tale in the Desert (recommended by my buddy).  Ha.  Funny choice because this game was the exact opposite of what I wanted.  But, I tried it out and enjoyed it for a few months.  Mostly, I just made false trades, stole from guilds and pissed a bunch of people off for my own amusement.  BUT!  It sowed me the light.

I needed some action, but I had grown a bit fond of the Cyber-Larp world I experienced in ATITD.  Being a huge fan of the Wars, I loaded up some SWG and tried that on for size.  I was amazed (and a bit overwhelmed) by its bigness.  Being a new MMOer I had no idea what to do, where to go, and although I loved the concept I got lost in the vastness and quit.  Big mistake now I know, but back then I just didn't get it.

A year or two later my buddy finally convinced me to play WoW.  I tried it out.  It was awesome at first.  I really didn't like the fighting system of pressing 1,2,1,5,1,3 repeatedly though.  Sure enough after rinsing and repeating quest turn ins, I just quit the game after a month.  BORING.

Knowing better, but stubborn as ever, I tried out Rift.  Loved the moves and the skill trees my guy had, but the game had absolutely no depth and PvP was pointless because whoever played for 1,000,000 hours had the best gear and even though they struggled to even turn their character to face me in battle, they could kill me with one hit as I was slapping them 10 times.  What was the point?  I don't want to play dungeons over an over for gear, that's NOT challenging, takes 0 thinking and without story (as in Rift and WoW), is just completely pointless.

I know how people are and I know corporations that need to be profitable are acting in their best interest by taking advantage of peoples preferences.  I thought maybe Bioware's SWTOR could (although it is a cookie cutter themepark) at least string me along with a cool Star Wars storyline.  I played the test this past weekend and was just purely disappointed.  It didn't feel like Star Wars at all.  I got a light saber at lvll10, had the powers of Emperor Palpatine at lvl 1 and just mindlesly ran back and forth from quest to quest giver amazing every NPC in my way ("Woah, you beat those evil bats that took two buttons pressed to beat?  The force IS strong with you!... OMG WOW I AM SO AWESOME).

I write this history of my MMO life to show you guys how a newcomer to the genre has progressed through it.  As a noob, my MMO mind was unable to handle the freedom and vastness of SWG.  It started out confusing and bad, but I am sure I would absolutely LOVE the game if I played it now.  Conversely, the themeparks I have played caught my attention right away with silky graphics, easy instructions, and point and click moves, but then got repetitive and boring.

I think Sandbox MMOs will work if backed by the right company, but what it needs is a way to attract noobs, or more casual MMOers.  Based on the mentality of some of these MMO Themepark jockeys, it will be though.  They are all blown away when they play a dungeon the same way 50 times and finally get that peice of pixel gear that gives them 10,000 armor and 500 crit, 350 Hit Power... everything but a bib and a diaper.  And they truly love it.  I am envious of these people, because that gives me no joy.

IMO, the perfect MMO would have...

-  Emphasis on player crafting.  (no dungeon grinding for gear that is stupid)

-  Crafting must be elaborate and chalenging to keep people who are specializing in crafting important to the game and interested.

-  Fighting shouldn't be based on Rage, Mana, Combo, etc.  That is dumb, inimaginitive, unchallenging and unrewarding.  It should be skill based, so people who choose a fighting class need to actually be good at it.  Yeah, if you wanna gank some random dudes running past you, you better know how to do more than just click 1,2,3.  That would slow down ganking and eliminate a few crybabies for sure.

-  Stop making dungeons.  You can have caves that have large beasts in them, but there is no reason NPCs should be strategically placed in the same spots.  And there is NO reason a giant Dragon boss should drop a pair of freaking pants when you beat him.  That is dumb.

-  There must be some kind of lore to land.  THis is why Star Wars Galaxies COULD have worked.  You already understand the story and you feel that you are part of the lore instantly.  There is absolutely no point to the game if you can't immerse yourself in the environment.

-  Graphics must be good.  One of the reasons Rift kept me for a few weeks longer than WoW was because of the realistic characters, wolrd and dark, adult setting.  I liked that.  I was really pissed with the cartoony SWTOR characters and my inability to pick from more than 10 preset faces.  So impersonal and that is the opposite of what an MMO should be.

-  Pointless PvP.  That seems like a bad thing but it isnt.  If all you gain is a little XP from PvP and you don't have idiotic warzones or battearenas to battle for stupid ratings, fighting is then just for your own enjoyment.  Maybe you get a group, band together and mess some people up around the map... great.  Thats up to you.

-  Gear should be perishable and not obtained in dungeons.  This keeps crafters in business, will force a natural economy and reduce random ganking (for all the crybabies).

There are so many details I can add in, but I am sure most of you stopped reading anyways.  I have a great idea for an MMO, so if any one you guys can help push it, send me a message.

Hoping and dreaming for the ultimate mmo,

prodigaL_son

Originally posted by prodigaL_son

Pardon me for being a noob to the MMO experience.  Lemme give you a brief background on my Internet MMO XP.

My first ever MMO was SWG.  I finally grew up enough to accept my inner nerd and came out of the cyber-larp closet to my very dissapointed friends... "Sorry guys, I love Star Wars and video games".  Hell, i'm married now and can do wtf I want with my free time.  RPGs never really got my juices flowing (except Mass Effect and ME2 which are the greatest games of all time) quite like Counter-Strike did.  CS was amazing, because it gave me the feeling I had missed from back when I played high-caliber sports.  That super competitive atmosphere where you have a team, strategy, you have to train and then perform at the the top of your game especially in clutch moments... AWESOME.  But, it was way too filled with obvious cheaters and sometimes Cyber-Athletes give themselves way too much credit.  We are, afterall, just sitting in a chair, clicking buttons!

So, I went in search of a cyber world where I could disappear form reality for a few hours a day and pretend I am some death weilding powerhouse of pain.  Oh yeah.  I chose a game called A Tale in the Desert (recommended by my buddy).  Ha.  Funny choice because this game was the exact opposite of what I wanted.  But, I tried it out and enjoyed it for a few months.  Mostly, I just made false trades, stole from guilds and pissed a bunch of people off for my own amusement.  BUT!  It sowed me the light.

I needed some action, but I had grown a bit fond of the Cyber-Larp world I experienced in ATITD.  Being a huge fan of the Wars, I loaded up some SWG and tried that on for size.  I was amazed (and a bit overwhelmed) by its bigness.  Being a new MMOer I had no idea what to do, where to go, and although I loved the concept I got lost in the vastness and quit.  Big mistake now I know, but back then I just didn't get it.

A year or two later my buddy finally convinced me to play WoW.  I tried it out.  It was awesome at first.  I really didn't like the fighting system of pressing 1,2,1,5,1,3 repeatedly though.  Sure enough after rinsing and repeating quest turn ins, I just quit the game after a month.  BORING.

Knowing better, but stubborn as ever, I tried out Rift.  Loved the moves and the skill trees my guy had, but the game had absolutely no depth and PvP was pointless because whoever played for 1,000,000 hours had the best gear and even though they struggled to even turn their character to face me in battle, they could kill me with one hit as I was slapping them 10 times.  What was the point?  I don't want to play dungeons over an over for gear, that's NOT challenging, takes 0 thinking and without story (as in Rift and WoW), is just completely pointless.

I know how people are and I know corporations that need to be profitable are acting in their best interest by taking advantage of peoples preferences.  I thought maybe Bioware's SWTOR could (although it is a cookie cutter themepark) at least string me along with a cool Star Wars storyline.  I played the test this past weekend and was just purely disappointed.  It didn't feel like Star Wars at all.  I got a light saber at lvll10, had the powers of Emperor Palpatine at lvl 1 and just mindlesly ran back and forth from quest to quest giver amazing every NPC in my way ("Woah, you beat those evil bats that took two buttons pressed to beat?  The force IS strong with you!... OMG WOW I AM SO AWESOME).

I write this history of my MMO life to show you guys how a newcomer to the genre has progressed through it.  As a noob, my MMO mind was unable to handle the freedom and vastness of SWG.  It started out confusing and bad, but I am sure I would absolutely LOVE the game if I played it now.  Conversely, the themeparks I have played caught my attention right away with silky graphics, easy instructions, and point and click moves, but then got repetitive and boring.

I think Sandbox MMOs will work if backed by the right company, but what it needs is a way to attract noobs, or more casual MMOers.  Based on the mentality of some of these MMO Themepark jockeys, it will be though.  They are all blown away when they play a dungeon the same way 50 times and finally get that peice of pixel gear that gives them 10,000 armor and 500 crit, 350 Hit Power... everything but a bib and a diaper.  And they truly love it.  I am envious of these people, because that gives me no joy.

IMO, the perfect MMO would have...

-  Emphasis on player crafting.  (no dungeon grinding for gear that is stupid)

-  Crafting must be elaborate and chalenging to keep people who are specializing in crafting important to the game and interested.

-  Fighting shouldn't be based on Rage, Mana, Combo, etc.  That is dumb, inimaginitive, unchallenging and unrewarding.  It should be skill based, so people who choose a fighting class need to actually be good at it.  Yeah, if you wanna gank some random dudes running past you, you better know how to do more than just click 1,2,3.  That would slow down ganking and eliminate a few crybabies for sure.

-  Stop making dungeons.  You can have caves that have large beasts in them, but there is no reason NPCs should be strategically placed in the same spots.  And there is NO reason a giant Dragon boss should drop a pair of freaking pants when you beat him.  That is dumb.

-  There must be some kind of lore to land.  THis is why Star Wars Galaxies COULD have worked.  You already understand the story and you feel that you are part of the lore instantly.  There is absolutely no point to the game if you can't immerse yourself in the environment.

-  Graphics must be good.  One of the reasons Rift kept me for a few weeks longer than WoW was because of the realistic characters, wolrd and dark, adult setting.  I liked that.  I was really pissed with the cartoony SWTOR characters and my inability to pick from more than 10 preset faces.  So impersonal and that is the opposite of what an MMO should be.

-  Pointless PvP.  That seems like a bad thing but it isnt.  If all you gain is a little XP from PvP and you don't have idiotic warzones or battearenas to battle for stupid ratings, fighting is then just for your own enjoyment.  Maybe you get a group, band together and mess some people up around the map... great.  Thats up to you.

-  Gear should be perishable and not obtained in dungeons.  This keeps crafters in business, will force a natural economy and reduce random ganking (for all the crybabies).

There are so many details I can add in, but I am sure most of you stopped reading anyways.  I have a great idea for an MMO, so if any one you guys can help push it, send me a message.

Hoping and dreaming for the ultimate mmo,

prodigaL_son

The problem is that the vast majority of people cannot compete in a twitch world. If you are born without twitch you lose. Of course if you have twitch, which I suspect you do because you like twitch gameplay so much, then its so cool stomping all those n00bs.

Original video game nerds based winning a game on intelligence because guess what, that's their skillset. Of course later on with the advent of fan sites, you didn't have to be smart and math craft and theory craft because someone did that for you.

The options for games are:

physical:

strength

speed

endurance

twitch

intellectual:

logic

math

organization

Any game can have physical and mental,but someone else can do the mental heavy lifting for you, whereas no one can do the physical work for you. Thus when a person does all the mental work and posts it online, math based games break and become button mashing.

Breaking planning is somewhat harder.

But games always screw over someone because not everyone is equal in the field the gameplay is based on.

Twitch games exist, such as mobas and FPS games, but for mmorpgs it doesnt really work. most people dont want rpg and twitch.

But hence the point of "Role-Playing".  I like playing the hack and slash murderous beast.  I don't like crafting.  But, in games like Rift or WoW I can do both.  Hell, I can do just about everything on my own.  If it was a true RPG, players with "twitch" or "talent" need players who enjoy crafting, guild building, gathering, trading, theiving, etc. 

The problem with these games is that fighting takes no skill.  So anyone can go out and fight anyone as long as their gear is better.  But, not everyone has the patience or skillset to do the other things.  If you want to eliminate or REDUCE ganking in MMOs, you need to make fighting skill based.  But, make those fighters have to rely on people to craft perishable armor and weapons, and those people rely on gatherers and so on and so forth.

I think if a games industiral aspects are interesting enough, if fighting is tougher, but not impossible (ie. killing NPCs that even the gumpiest player can handle), everyone is happier than just one or the other. 

My main concerin about Sandboxes, is if the new generation has the mental strength to understand unfairness and inequality.  They certainly are quite a bit more sensitive than my generation and it is ruining my gaming experience.  People need to understand Risk/Reward, Business Ethics (or lack there of), Training for Skill naturally not by getting a reward for going through the motions.  In life there are areas where everyone can succeed.  This point you made beautifully.  Why can't people accept these in video games?  Seems to me, all the "older' players prefer that to the way Themparks do it.

Opinions?

Originally posted by prodigaL_son

But hence the point of "Role-Playing".  I like playing the hack and slash murderous beast.  I don't like crafting.  But, in games like Rift or WoW I can do both.  Hell, I can do just about everything on my own.  If it was a true RPG, players with "twitch" or "talent" need players who enjoy crafting, guild building, gathering, trading, theiving, etc. 

The problem with these games is that fighting takes no skill.  So anyone can go out and fight anyone as long as their gear is better.  But, not everyone has the patience or skillset to do the other things.  If you want to eliminate or REDUCE ganking in MMOs, you need to make fighting skill based.  But, make those fighters have to rely on people to craft perishable armor and weapons, and those people rely on gatherers and so on and so forth.

I think if a games industiral aspects are interesting enough, if fighting is tougher, but not impossible (ie. killing NPCs that even the gumpiest player can handle), everyone is happier than just one or the other. 

My main concerin about Sandboxes, is if the new generation has the mental strength to understand unfairness and inequality.  They certainly are quite a bit more sensitive than my generation and it is ruining my gaming experience.  People need to understand Risk/Reward, Business Ethics (or lack there of), Training for Skill naturally not by getting a reward for going through the motions.  In life there are areas where everyone can succeed.  This point you made beautifully.  Why can't people accept these in video games?  Seems to me, all the "older' players prefer that to the way Themparks do it.

Opinions?

 The thing is older gamers are the minority in gaming it is sad, but yet true we are well out numbered as such the younger generation is who they gear their games to. Also it is that they do not want to pay for being fustrated, annoyed or just plain out down in game. Most gamers in mmos want to enjoy their time, relax , f they wish (that is the big thing here.) go and do somethign that is difficult in the game. We have had a great number of years in mmos to enjoy them, but now i see way too many people saying that since they were here first that their playstyle should be the norm of the games. Also in many cases making a game mre skill based leads to more ganking as that player that wants to enjoy his day in game, s not as skilled as a vet in the game leading to his death (with in many cases no chance to win as thier difference in skills is too large.), players that want to gank put in more time to get good enouph to take out those that are theri to have fun.

I think what many older gamers need to come to uunderstand is that you are talking about a game, not the stanly cup, or your mother silverware. To many a game is to have fun in, risk/reward is fun to some and hell to others, having to treat the game like a job is kjust not what they paid money and a sub to do in game. People talk abotu how their playing exeperince is being impared by the newer mmos gamers, but yet the new generation of them is larger so who's gaming experince is more important? People talk abotu learning to deal with unfairness and inequality, but then say that since they were there first that the game should catter thier style of play, while they are being unfair to the gamers that are the majority, annd maybe should take a pil of unfairness in that theur style is now extinct overall. THe mmo gamers that want these things are not taking it well that the games are treating them unfairly by making them play hwo the majority desire to, and this inequality. Good business sense is to mark your game to the largest group to make your money bacck quickly, while trying to keep a good primary base of players to keep it running, but marketing it to a mnority group with only seeing it get bac what is spent in the game after several years of play s not a bad idea although s a worse option.

But really only WoW is the anomaly here.  If you take WoW out of the equation, doesn't the player base for Sandbox v. Themepark kind of level out? 

I like your point on inequality, but it doesn't fit what I was saying at all.  Inside your game world, all people can't be equal.  Sure, I may be complaining that almost every single MMO penalizes skill and promotes mindless repetition, but that is because I want it to be more unbalanced.  Imbalance is interesting, fun and promotes creativity.  Take Rift for example.  Absolutely everbody was the freaking same.  It was lame, pointless and isn't doing very well.

What is sad to me, is that such a large group of people can stand mindlessly clicking through simple (unchallenging) dungeons, the most awfully non-creative Raids (worst experience of my life, OMFG get out of the circle on the ground FFS), and just (as you say) "treating the game like a job" by putting in the hours and expecting a pay check (insert name of amazing piece of pixel gear).  Where is the fun, where is the inspiration, where is the creativity?  If the people who don't have skill claim to be so smart, how come they waste their brain cells on this juvenile garbage?  Intelligence needs a gauntlet, similar to physical skill, to stay sharp.

Am I being unfair?  By not accepting that the current Sandbox game standard is good enough, am I failing to realize my own concept of Accepting Unfairness?  Oh no, I accept it.  But I have an opinion about it and that's why I am talking on an internet forum. 

Would people really NOT subscribe to a totally free-world MMO?  Eve?  SWG?  It just needs to be done right.  There is plently of money to be made, plenty of people to hop on an attractive bandwagon, and plently of suckers to drag along for the ride.  The problem is cookie cutter capitalism.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And, I assume, until WoW shuts its doors, everyone will just copy their formula until enough people get sick of it.

But, as mentioned earlier in this thread, WoW (at the time-and you can correct me if i'm wrong), was a risk as well.  They didn't know how well such a linear path would be received in this genre.  And, it worked.  It had a great company backing a great game title and poof... success.

I think the secret is all in the recipe.  Design, Concept, Marketing, Budget.  I guess that's no secret at all.  The mystery is why top level companies would take a risk.  To me, Bioware and SWTOR seemed like the perfect place for it.  IMO, they missed the target.  Perhaps they should go click on some more lower level mobs and add 1 point to their ingenuity tree?!

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

No one dedicates a serious budget to their development.

And for some reason people seem to think that a Sandbox games just HAS to have FFA full loot PVP.

As much fun as that is for some of us, it's a sure-fire way to make sure that a game will never have enough subs to survive.

That..and developers keep forgetting to put enough sand in the box.

Exactly

Actually they put enough sand in the box. The problem is they dont put enough things to play in the sand with.

Originally posted by Elricmerren

Originally posted by prodigaL_son

But hence the point of "Role-Playing".  I like playing the hack and slash murderous beast.  I don't like crafting.  But, in games like Rift or WoW I can do both.  Hell, I can do just about everything on my own.  If it was a true RPG, players with "twitch" or "talent" need players who enjoy crafting, guild building, gathering, trading, theiving, etc. 

The problem with these games is that fighting takes no skill.  So anyone can go out and fight anyone as long as their gear is better.  But, not everyone has the patience or skillset to do the other things.  If you want to eliminate or REDUCE ganking in MMOs, you need to make fighting skill based.  But, make those fighters have to rely on people to craft perishable armor and weapons, and those people rely on gatherers and so on and so forth.

I think if a games industiral aspects are interesting enough, if fighting is tougher, but not impossible (ie. killing NPCs that even the gumpiest player can handle), everyone is happier than just one or the other. 

My main concerin about Sandboxes, is if the new generation has the mental strength to understand unfairness and inequality.  They certainly are quite a bit more sensitive than my generation and it is ruining my gaming experience.  People need to understand Risk/Reward, Business Ethics (or lack there of), Training for Skill naturally not by getting a reward for going through the motions.  In life there are areas where everyone can succeed.  This point you made beautifully.  Why can't people accept these in video games?  Seems to me, all the "older' players prefer that to the way Themparks do it.

Opinions?

 The thing is older gamers are the minority in gaming it is sad, but yet true we are well out numbered as such the younger generation is who they gear their games to. Also it is that they do not want to pay for being fustrated, annoyed or just plain out down in game. Most gamers in mmos want to enjoy their time, relax , f they wish (that is the big thing here.) go and do somethign that is difficult in the game. We have had a great number of years in mmos to enjoy them, but now i see way too many people saying that since they were here first that their playstyle should be the norm of the games. Also in many cases making a game mre skill based leads to more ganking as that player that wants to enjoy his day in game, s not as skilled as a vet in the game leading to his death (with in many cases no chance to win as thier difference in skills is too large.), players that want to gank put in more time to get good enouph to take out those that are theri to have fun.

 

I think what many older gamers need to come to uunderstand is that you are talking about a game, not the stanly cup, or your mother silverware. To many a game is to have fun in, risk/reward is fun to some and hell to others, having to treat the game like a job is kjust not what they paid money and a sub to do in game. People talk abotu how their playing exeperince is being impared by the newer mmos gamers, but yet the new generation of them is larger so who's gaming experince is more important? People talk abotu learning to deal with unfairness and inequality, but then say that since they were there first that the game should catter thier style of play, while they are being unfair to the gamers that are the majority, annd maybe should take a pil of unfairness in that theur style is now extinct overall. THe mmo gamers that want these things are not taking it well that the games are treating them unfairly by making them play hwo the majority desire to, and this inequality. Good business sense is to mark your game to the largest group to make your money bacck quickly, while trying to keep a good primary base of players to keep it running, but marketing it to a mnority group with only seeing it get bac what is spent in the game after several years of play s not a bad idea although s a worse option.

You are blatantly mistating the case of older g amers! New gamers do this constantly. Old gamers dont want every game to be for us, we just want one single fucking triple A or double A MMO to cater to us. One. Out of dozens. One.

I'm an old gamer.....

I drink my prune juice on the rocks.....

There is an easy answer to this, us old gamers can stop our children from buying themepark games moahahaha :P

Originally posted by Bladestrom

There is an easy answer to this, us old gamers can stop our children from buying themepark games moahahaha :P

Like.

Problem with a sandbox like Skyrim is it just will not work in a mmorpg market. Its fine for a single player games because its all centred on you. So everything can scale to you and if you make the perfect unstoppable build nobody cares. (For example my char is lvl 42 in Skyrim and Nothing even comes close to scratvhing me anymore. Dragons are just slightly above bunnies in my opinion of easy kills.

The biggest problem mmorpg sandboxes have is what defines a sandbox .. To some it means ffa open world pvp. To others it means freedom to do anyting to anyone npc and player.

To others it means a open world where even if there is a underlying plot your not tied to it.whilst others consider anything that has levels and classes cannot be considered sandbox because your being confined by the class definition.

Here lies the problem having a ffa approach to player killing brings out the worst in some people and this drives others away from the game. A LOT of people for example left Ultima due to the rampant pkers and this is why EQ1 ended up winning the mmorpg race. It comes to a point that a lot of players who would otherwise be perfectly happy playing a sandbox turn away as soon as they hear its pvp centric.