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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars: The Old Republic: Mirrored Classes

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287 posts found
  Alalala

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 299

11/30/11 11:50:28 AM#81
A lazy but wholly effective approach to balanced PvP.
  clankyasp

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/08
Posts: 217

11/30/11 11:51:04 AM#82

so WoW can claim they have 24 classes?


  dirtyside

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/05
Posts: 82

11/30/11 11:53:18 AM#83

ummmm bio ware is generic as can be and if u say different than you havent played their pc games , so i dont know why people expected something different from them for swtor


  DaShnipa

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/01/05
Posts: 32

11/30/11 11:55:22 AM#84

I agree with the class mirroring being in every other MMO. 


WoW - Not only mirrored but the EXACT SAME CLASSES FOR BOTH SIDES


LOTRO - No opposing faction to balance against.


Vanguard - See LOTRO


CoH - Flavor of the month toons with some mirroring. 


AoC - See LOTRO


DAOC - 3 factions, classes weren't balanced and flavor of the week toon's were common. Granted the RvR was still an assload of fun.


Shall I continue?


Why is everyone up in arms about uniqueness. I'm willing to be the majority have played wow, digging and grinding for the same armor that everyone else has, using the same cookie cutter builds as the top PvP/PvE players, and never once bitched about it then. 


The characters although mirrored play differently, look different, and have different story lines and quests. I'm all for balance, and if this is how they plan on achieving it (at least in the short run) Count me in. 


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  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4113

11/30/11 11:57:51 AM#85
Originally posted by musicmann
Originally posted by elocke

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

 

I can almost promise you that when GW2 comes out you will have the same bitching and moaning from pve and pvper's and balance, nerf issue's. Keep putting your almighty GW2 that high on a pedistal and you are sure to be highly disappointed once you get to play the actual game.

Every post that you write just keeps showing your disdain for TOR and your zealous fanboyism for GW2.

I mentioned GW2 because it's the only upcoming game that I know of that is changing how things are done in this "balance" issue.  It has nothing to do with my excitement for GW2 or my dislike(not disdain, it's not THAT horrible) of SWTOR.  Stay on topic, please.

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  Robsolf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4043

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

11/30/11 11:59:00 AM#86
Originally posted by Alalala
A lazy but wholly effective approach to balanced PvP.

No matter what, a coder has to earn their pay.

If they earn it by putting out new content, it's a win-win.  If they earn it by spending 80% of their time rebalancing (nerfing) classes, it's time wasted.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4113

11/30/11 11:59:41 AM#87
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by elocke

So is the issue PVE or PVP balance?  If it is, why don't we have different skills for PVP for each class then?  Why nerf our choices to bring about "balance" when the balance issues can be tackled from a different angle that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs or developing a game with little to no classes in order to save themselves from the headaches of the "current" mmorpg balance issues.

Just curious, but isn't this why GW2's system of no trinity possibly a different take on the same "balance" issue?  Or is it something that class/level based games HAVE to be designed around?  Hmm, this might be where the lack of innovation issues that people have with SWTOR is coming from.  I know it bothers me that Bioware, this giant behemoth supposedly awesome company, isn't innovating in these areas.  Guess it's too much to ask.

 

Balance in general can be satiated by mirrored classes.  Most apparent in PvP,  but PvE is also important, and if you have the same classes on each side, theres no talk about how one side finishes quests easier due to a particular classes ability set.

 

Balanced classes help, simply due to the way issues were previously with FOTM builds.  Everyone flocks to whats powerful,  then it gets "balanced"  then they go somewhere else,  and the cycle continues.  If you look down the line,  or hell, if you play SWTOR,  what did you see?  Well, you didn't see a single class dominate PvP,  nor did you see a single class dominate the PvE areas.  (outside of starter planets of course).   You saw diversity.  In my time in Beta... those many months,  I saw every build under the sun for every class,  even builds you wouldn't expect,  and even though the diversity wasn't there in terms of my consular having a completely different spec as someone elses inquisitor,  the choices you make for your class and the way you play them is much more important.

So IS SWTOR balanced then?  If not, then mirroring doesn't really work for the balance issue and personally, I'd rather have more class choices than have to sit on the balance fence all day.  If it DOES work, will it get schewed if they make more classes in the future?

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  Kuinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2091

11/30/11 11:59:42 AM#88
Originally posted by clankyasp

so WoW can claim they have 24 classes?

 

WoW has 10 classes, they dont get divided into totally different classes like the 4 base classes of TOR that make up 8 advanced classes. Sith inquisitor sorcerer is a ranged damage dealer or healer, and assassin is a melee stealth dps or tank. How can anyone call those two the same class?

  Hellfyre420

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/10
Posts: 867

Hai2u o/

11/30/11 12:00:26 PM#89

So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??


 


If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.



Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

11/30/11 12:01:37 PM#90

If they would do it otherwise it would been a mess to balance PvP and the PvP in SWTOR now is the best in any mmorpg i've played.


I don't like the republic spells at all from the jedi consular, throwing rocks and metal objects? the sandstorm is pretty cool but i prefer playing empire and cast lightning and stuff like that and i also did'nt like the starter area for republic.


  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

11/30/11 12:04:52 PM#91

A big problem with balance issues is that players are idiots, and expectthings to be balanced 1v1.  PvP in games like DAoC, Rift, WAR, WoW, etc...Its not 1 on 1, its TEAM BASED.  1 on 1 should have balance issues.


  davestr1zl

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/11
Posts: 220

11/30/11 12:13:14 PM#92

The classes originally a long time ago werent really mirrors at all and over time they've made them identical. I personally think its for the best to have them mirrored, and that having mirrored abilities in a game like swtor doesnt really mean the class plays the same at all... due to your companions, story, faction content, ship, weapons, armour, visuals of skills etc all being completely unique.. so im not really fussed by it. I can, however, understand people's problem with it but I dont personally agree with them.


Balance IS important, and this is an almost gauranteed way of ensuring balance (or atleast, gauranteed of ensuring balance between the 2 faction's, not necessarily between classes within 1 faction). It also means that while less developement time and resources are spent on balance they can be put into other areas of content.


I personally think the pros far outweigh the cons of mirrored classes, and as said previously 'mirrored classes' in swtor is far less of an issue than in other games due to so much about the classes being completely different and unique, its more correct to say 'mirrored skills' (which even then have completely unique visuals and animations).


  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7768

Logic be damned!

11/30/11 12:20:57 PM#93

The story and animations make them feel completely different in play.

With the AC's they have 8 classes to balance and as WoW has proved over the past 6-7 years it's STILL hard to get the balance right for PvP with only 8 classes.

I fully and whole heartedly support the mirroring of classes in TOR because of PvP and PvE balance, and until you play both sides of the mirror as I have (Consular and Inquisitor) you can't fully apprecaite how different they really do feel thanks to the STORY.

I remember "balance" in PvP in sandbox games like UO and SWG -

FOTM builds, power builds (tank-mage anyone?)

SWG had the worst PvP balance ever, between 1-shot Rifleman to Teras Kasi gods to Commandos and then Combat Medics etc.

Yes, of course I would LOVE to see a game that had UO style freedom with perfect balance, but I'm a realist and mirrored classes = better balance and in a PvP heavy game I will take 16 balanced classes over 4-5 FOTM or OP power builds ANY day of the week.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Codivius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/11
Posts: 30

11/30/11 12:21:21 PM#94

I've come to believe that we all like to forget that we believe our avatar is better (YOu are proud on your avatar, no?  After all, it's you.) then those other toons out there, especially the enemy.  Being confronted with the cold undeniable fact that the other guy is EXACTLY as powerfull as you, stings.  So we hate the balance.


I approve of the choice they made.  Because it 1) Frees up dev time they otherwise had to spend dealing with the flavor of the month.  2)Getting to know your enemy is a lot easier, and this will contribute to better pvp I hope.


If it were to make spells feel artificial (like the short range blaster rifle example), that'd be a pity, but I haven't come across that problem since I've only played each class type, and never it's opposite.  I might become aware of it if I were to play, like the OP and other testers out there, every possible class.


 


 


 


 


 


 


Currently playing: Skyrim, SWTOR
Looking forward to: Guildwars 2 ! modestly excited for: The Secret World
Have played intensely: Rift, Eve, AoC, WoW, Conquer 2.0, Astonia 3
Have played less intensely: just about everything else

  Binny45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 463

11/30/11 12:21:37 PM#95

Mirroring may suck, and I certainly don't think these classes are IDENTICAL, just really similar, but the alternative is MUCH worse.


I still remember playing EQ.  While a Necromancer could have a nap fighting a group of dragons, you had Warriors who couldn't even fight a single green (no exp) mob without help.  The rest of the classes fell in between those two, and there were subtle differences depending on gear and later AA build, but ultimately the games balance was WAY out of whack.  This is not nearly as bad if it's a PvE server, but for PvP it can kill your game.  Not striking a balance does two things: a) frustrates the HELL out of players and b) you have the same class with the same gear running around in droves.  It stops being about the whole game and only about the class.


It's hard trying to make each class unique.  The tiniest difference may not do much in the early levels, but the butterfly effect at lvl 50 could be HUGE.


It's the lesser of two evils.


  LordRelic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 292

11/30/11 12:23:17 PM#96
Originally posted by Paragus1

I agree with you.   It completely hurts the prospect of giving each side a distinctive feel and feels like they opted to cut corners either out of laziness or for the sake of balancing.   Just another in a long line of examples of how they are trying to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.

lol It just proves when you want balanced and fair pvp this is what you get.. Thanks pvpers you fked it up again.

  tool089

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/07/07
Posts: 63

11/30/11 12:27:02 PM#97

I don't know if there's a decent MMO out there with varying classes on each side.. WoW tried it early on with Paladin/Shaman, but they ended up giving it to both sides..  I don't think giving both sides completely different classes is even possible to balance properly, and I wouldn't have wanted the devs wasting their time trying to balance everything when they could add content or fix actual bugs.  I think if they didn't do this, then all of the complaints would be about one side having an OP class, which is just as annoying.


My complaints would be that there aren't enough classes..


  Codivius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/11
Posts: 30

11/30/11 12:30:38 PM#98

Originally posted by Hellfyre420

So a smuggler can weild a light sabre or get force lightening like the inquisitor can??




 




If not then i don't see how these are "mirroed" classes.. Do each class have the same skills or something? I know they all look very simular.. But i had no clue a smuggler could use force powers and such lol.





 


The visual effects are different, but the mathematical consequences  are exactly the same.  So for every spell 'A' on your smuggler you'll have a spell 'B' on your imperial agent that will roll the same amount of dice, will only work at the same distance, affect  the same area size etc...


Currently playing: Skyrim, SWTOR
Looking forward to: Guildwars 2 ! modestly excited for: The Secret World
Have played intensely: Rift, Eve, AoC, WoW, Conquer 2.0, Astonia 3
Have played less intensely: just about everything else

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6784

11/30/11 12:31:59 PM#99

They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  

Why even call it a MMO?

  Leucent

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 2452

11/30/11 12:33:05 PM#100
Originally posted by Ozmodan

They mirrored them because they want to keep it solo friendly.  Heaven forbid you team with someone.  It is a wonder they even allow groups.  

Why even call it a MMO?

Lol, huh??

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