Let's try and see the bigger picture here this is an MMO and it does stand on the box of purchase "Game experience may change during online play.". This is only the 1st portion of this game which we all know hater or not will be a successful release and change how MMO's are made to a degree. That being said they have plenty of room to add on with expansion packs in the future and take more money from us as consumers; which i'm fine with since they've earned my money. All the things anyone mentioned earlier can   and might happen might see an an Imperial Smuggler for instance since in Hutta it's clear they have smugglers, Bounty Hunter is all about credits so wouldn't be shocked to see a Republic BH, the trick is making these two classes unique so we'd want to play them for gameplay reasons story aside. Next race's will most likely be added in two that jump right out at me are Cathar and Bothan. I think races need to speak basic well if not very well so that leaves out races such as Ithorian sadly. Lastly I wouldn't be shocked to eventually see in a future expansion the option to jump sides without paying real cash to do so it'd make one hell of a story arch decision if implemented but I don't see that happening for years when the game loses steam and faces a similar WoW exodus, for whatever game may be coming out than (Mass Effect MMO???? DA MMO?? I can dream right?)

Originally posted by evilastro
 

The classes are all mirrored. Smugglers are the equivalent of Imperial Agents. Troopers are the equivalent of Bounty Hunters. Sith warriors are the equivalent of Jedi Knights. Sith Inquisitors are the equivalent of Jedi Sages. Even the talent trees and roles are mirrored with different appearance flavours.

Opening up betrayal quests would improve the race / class combos available. Although Bioware might not want true Sith or Chiss betraying.

Classes are not mirrored.  Roles are mirrored.  There is a difference.  If the classes were mirroed, then you would have Imperial and Republic Agents - you would have Republic and Imperial Smugglers - you would have Imperial and Republic Bounty Hunters - and - you would have Republic and Imperial Troopers.

If you want to fill the role normally played by an Imperial Agent, you can play a Republic Smuggler - Republic Trooper, Imperial Bounty Hunter...

...so yes, the roles and thus talent trees to fill those roles are going to be mirrored.

The classes are not though...for players.  Yep, you will speak with NPC Imperial Troopers and NPC Republic Agents.  You just can't play them.

Classes aren't mirrored directly, there is minor variations, not in skills, but in equipment available.

It should be possible for you to switch sides, but at this time they've decided not to allow it. We'll see what happens in the future, but I don't think it will be an issue for most people, as Faction is different from Good/Evil. Even as a Dark Jedi, I would have no real desire to join the Empire, they are racist slavers and that just doesn't suit me.

Originally posted by bobfish

Classes aren't mirrored directly, there is minor variations, not in skills, but in equipment available.

 

It should be possible for you to switch sides, but at this time they've decided not to allow it. We'll see what happens in the future, but I don't think it will be an issue for most people, as Faction is different from Good/Evil. Even as a Dark Jedi, I would have no real desire to join the Empire, they are racist slavers and that just doesn't suit me.

I wanted to comment on your comment about the Empire, in a sense...

...in my experience this past weekend, the "most EVIL" story was that of a Dark Smuggler.

The Republic takes a best dead view of Rebels...lol.  Ironic, eh?

Originally posted by reid424

Let's try and see the bigger picture here this is an MMO and it does stand on the box of purchase "Game experience may change during online play.". This is only the 1st portion of this game which we all know hater or not will be a successful release and change how MMO's are made to a degree. That being said they have plenty of room to add on with expansion packs in the future and take more money from us as consumers; which i'm fine with since they've earned my money. All the things anyone mentioned earlier can   and might happen might see an an Imperial Smuggler for instance since in Hutta it's clear they have smugglers, Bounty Hunter is all about credits so wouldn't be shocked to see a Republic BH, the trick is making these two classes unique so we'd want to play them for gameplay reasons story aside. Next race's will most likely be added in two that jump right out at me are Cathar and Bothan. I think races need to speak basic well if not very well so that leaves out races such as Ithorian sadly. Lastly I wouldn't be shocked to eventually see in a future expansion the option to jump sides without paying real cash to do so it'd make one hell of a story arch decision if implemented but I don't see that happening for years when the game loses steam and faces a similar WoW exodus, for whatever game may be coming out than (Mass Effect MMO???? DA MMO?? I can dream right?)

When you go through the Imperial Agent story up to the point of picking Sniper/Operative, the guy mentions that you have been approved for two of the specialties - but mentions there are many others.

It will be interesting if other specialties introduced as the game progresses - and - if they will change the stance on not being able to change that, or if people will have to roll a new toon to experience them.

Originally posted by kasta

You cannot switch factions nor can you team cross-faction.  If you are an evil jedi you are just an evil jedi.  You will never be and can never be a sith.

Which is to bad, would be awesome if bioware added something later where you could switch sides. Maybe at max level able to switch sides. Would be more wide diversity and more awesomeness to starwars enviroment. Evil jedi's falling to sith. Sith's changing ways.

Also have bounty hunter, and smuggler able to work for both sides.

And trooper/agent to become outcast freelancers for the other side, and people who will still hire them outside main army of faction..

Wouldn't dat be epic.. (*crosses fingers*) maybe bioware will catch on.

Lets assume that Jedis are good and Siths are bad...  Something like Alliance-Horde in WoW.

And this is the problem.  Neither side is good or bad, they just have different views about how they want their world (government and military) to act.  Light and Dark side is about morality, NOT faction.  Being a dark jedi means you do not always follow the code and do whatever you want....where as being a light side Sith is about following order and respecting the rules, which ironically enough goes againt being a sith because they are to deceive and strive for power, even if it means backstabbing others, which is what the Dark side choices promote.

remember you aren't choosing jedi vs sith, you're choosing repubpic v empire.

also, there should be an old-eq2 style betrayal quest, that'd be really cool, especially since bioware could probably pull it off better than SoE and their "so you wanna switch?  fine, kill me 500 gnolls"

Originally posted by itchmon

remember you aren't choosing jedi vs sith, you're choosing repubpic v empire.

Heh, partially true.  Afterall, it is the Sith Empire at this point in time.  It does not become just the Empire until later.

But to an extent, what you say is basically how it is being handled with the game.  It is your first choice - Republic or Empire.  Nothing is hidden about that.  You're not rolling a Jedi, a Bounty Hunter, or a Smuggler.  You're rolling Republic or Empire...and you're taking it from there.

Many people are used to thinking class first and faction later.  That is not the case with SWTOR.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by evilastro
 

The classes are all mirrored. Smugglers are the equivalent of Imperial Agents. Troopers are the equivalent of Bounty Hunters. Sith warriors are the equivalent of Jedi Knights. Sith Inquisitors are the equivalent of Jedi Sages. Even the talent trees and roles are mirrored with different appearance flavours.

Opening up betrayal quests would improve the race / class combos available. Although Bioware might not want true Sith or Chiss betraying.

Classes are not mirrored.  Roles are mirrored.  There is a difference.  If the classes were mirroed, then you would have Imperial and Republic Agents - you would have Republic and Imperial Smugglers - you would have Imperial and Republic Bounty Hunters - and - you would have Republic and Imperial Troopers.

If you want to fill the role normally played by an Imperial Agent, you can play a Republic Smuggler - Republic Trooper, Imperial Bounty Hunter...

...so yes, the roles and thus talent trees to fill those roles are going to be mirrored.

The classes are not though...for players.  Yep, you will speak with NPC Imperial Troopers and NPC Republic Agents.  You just can't play them.

The classes ARE mirrored. They do exactly the same thing with a slight change in skill and gear appearance. For every CC / damage skill / buff you get - your mirror class will get an identical skill with an identical cooldown and identical purpose. The only thing that will change is the appearance of it to add flavour. The biggest difference in lore I guess would be between Bounty Hunters and Troopers, although they use similar tech. But there isnt much of a stretch between smugglers and imperial agents, in fact theres a quest where you can recruit a republic smuggler to become an imperial agent. Imperial agents are just scouts for the empire, while smugglers are scouts for the republic.

Lets take a look at the Sniper (Imperial Agent) and Gunslinger (Smuggler) - now lets look at the mirror trees, for instance Lethality (Sniper) and Dirty Fighting (Gunslinger). The first ability for Lethality is Corrosive Grenade - does ae damage to 3 targets over 21 seconds. Now look at the first ability for  Dirty Fighting, its Shrap Bomb which surprise surprise... does ae damage for 3 targets over 21 seconds. Now lets look at the final ability in each tree... Lethality gets Weakening Blast which causes the next 10 poison (dots) attacks to do 30% more damage. Gunslinger gets Hemorrhaging Blast which causes the next 10 bleed (dots) attacks to do 30% more damage... sounds familiar huh? You can go through all the trees and abilities and find that they are all identical with slight flavour adjustments (pebbles and rocks instead of lightning, poison instead of bleeds, flamethrowers and rockets instead of gravity shots and heavy artilary).

If you have played the mirror classes on each side you would know that they are IDENTICAL, hence MIRROR. The only thing that changes is the particle effects and gear appearance at high levels.

Originally posted by evilastro

If you have played the mirror classes on each side you would know that they are IDENTICAL, hence MIRROR. The only thing that changes is the particle effects and gear appearance at high levels.

I did play them.  That is how I know the "classes" are not identical.

There is no Imperial Smuggler.  There is no Republic Agent.

A class is more than just abilities.  When you're playing out the story for an Imperial Agent, it is not an Empire version of the Smuggler's story.  Why?  Because they are different classes.  When you're playing the Smuggler, you're not taking part in activities that a Republic Agent might.

If you're just thinking about the game lobby aspect of the game with instanced PvP and dungeons - then you've got roles.  The Smuggler and Agent can each do the same thing.

You do not have mirrored classes though.  It's a MMORPG.  The Smuggler is not a spy and the Agent is not a criminal.

Both factions should have Agents, Troopers, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters.

Light/Dark should determine whether you're Jedi or Sith.

Again, it's a MMORPG...

A rose by any other name....

They are both scouts. They both deal with the shady / stealthy side of the business. And I have played both, its certainly not a far stretch for one to become the other. The only difference is who they work for.

There is no reason to have imperial smugglers. Because the imperial smuggler is an agent. Whats the point in having identical classes with a new name on the same faction? It would be like playing Ryu or Ken in the original Street Fighter 2. Its just a different coat of paint.

In the SWTOR universe, being dark / light side is independant of your alliance. There are plenty of NPCs on the Sith side who want to destroy the republic, but dont want to be purely evil in the process... who try to help friends or innocent victims. Likewise there are plenty of selfish and corrupt people on the republic side of the conflict. Just because it is in their best interest to side with the Jedi, doesnt mean that they are pure and virtuous. It provides a lot more role play immersion than what you are suggesting.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by kasta

You cannot switch factions nor can you team cross-faction.  If you are an evil jedi you are just an evil jedi.  You will never be and can never be a sith.

Which is definitely mind boggling, eh?

For how many years now, have we been told about the dangers of a Jedi turning to the Dark Side...?

Anakin - Jedi.

Turns to Dark Side.

Vader - Sith Lord.

Mind boggling, eh?

What is mind boggling is hundreds of thousands of SW fans not giving a damn about that, and even saying how the story is so immersive and deep and blah blah. Story is just you pushing 3 buttons, good,  bad, neutral and... they don't mean a damn thing lol.

People are amazing.

Originally posted by evilastro

A rose by any other name....

 

They are both scouts. They both deal with the shady / stealthy side of the business. And I have played both, its certainly not a far stretch for one to become the other. The only difference is who they work for.

There is no reason to have imperial smugglers. Because the imperial smuggler is an agent. Whats the point in having identical classes a new name? It would be like playing Ryu or Ken in the original Street Fighter 2.

The difference is more than just who they work for... if the only difference was who they worked for, then we would have Imperial Smugglers, Republic Agents, Imperial Troopers, and Republic Bounty Hunters...

You say you played both sides - think about how the Imperial Agent worked and how the Republic Smuggler worked (not abilities, but how the stories play out).  The Smuggler did not work directly for the Republic.  The Republic Smuggler did support the Republic over the Empire in many cases, but the Smuggler was not a Republic lackey.  The Agent on the other hand, is directly employed by the Empire.  The Imperial Agent is an Empire lackey.

Using a design flaw to explain a design flaw does not excuse either flaw.

Smuggler Imperial/Republic - should be faction influenced mirrored classes.

Agent Imperial/Republic - should be faction influenced mirrored classes.

Smuggler/Agent - may have some common abilities, but they should be distinct classes.

It's as simple as saying, I want to play an elite soldier in the Imperial Army.  Sorry, you can't.  It's as simple as saying, I want to play a Republic spy that tries to thwart the efforts of the Empire.  Sorry, you can't.

Saying that you can play a Bounty Hunter or a Smuggler...is simply not the same thing.

The point you are missing is that they have the same skill set and hence they are the same just on different sides of the fence.

Of course the imperial agent follows orders and the smuggler has more freedom. If an imperial agent defected to the republic, guess what? They would have more freedom! And if a smuggler joined the empire... guess what? They would be expected to follow orders or die, just like the imperial agents.

Hence why any sort of betrayal quest could just go directly between the two mirror classes. Because they are essentially the same, just on different sides. In Everquest 2 you could betray a ranger to an assassin, or shadowknight to paladin, or templar to inquisitor... and all those evil / good classes had much less in common than the identical mirror image that you get in this game.

The classes are and were always intended to be identical, they just picked names and flavours that suited each side of the conflict. Theres no reason why a republic trooper couldnt betray to become a bounty hunter for profit. Or a bounty hunter take up cause with the republic and become a trooper. But that doesnt mean it should be linked to the good / evil dialogue choices.

Originally posted by evilastro

But that doesnt mean it should be linked to the good / evil dialogue choices.

I do not think that LS/DS should be linked in that fashion for Agent, Trooper, Smuggler, nor Bounty Hunter.  I do not think LS/DS should be linked to those classes at all.  Those classes should have R/E faction choices.

You're an Agent, Trooper, Smuggler, or Bounty Hunter - do you want to fight for the Republic or the Empire.

LS/DS should really only apply to Jedis and Sith.

No doubt there could be moral rating of some sort for A/T/S/B - but it should be meaningful and affect how your story plays out.  The guy with a reputation for being a murderous bastard should not have the same story as the guy that routinely sacrifices himself for kittens.

Again, my most deliciously "EVIL" experience was as a Republic Smuggler.  It put to shame anything my Sith Inquisitor did.  The closest would have been Imperial Bounty Hunter.

Yes, while the roles/abilities may be mirrored between Smuggler/Agent - storywise, it felt mirrored between Smuggler/Bounty Hunter (much like it was for Trooper/Agent while Bounty Hunter/Trooper were mirrored for roles/abilities).

Originally posted by Metentso

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by kasta

You cannot switch factions nor can you team cross-faction.  If you are an evil jedi you are just an evil jedi.  You will never be and can never be a sith.

Which is definitely mind boggling, eh?

For how many years now, have we been told about the dangers of a Jedi turning to the Dark Side...?

Anakin - Jedi.

Turns to Dark Side.

Vader - Sith Lord.

Mind boggling, eh?

 

What is mind boggling is hundreds of thousands of SW fans not giving a damn about that, and even saying how the story is so immersive and deep and blah blah. Story is just you pushing 3 buttons, good,  bad, neutral and... they don't mean a damn thing lol.

People are amazing.

What's amazing is the amount of people bad-mouthing the story aspect of SWTOR despite the fact that no other MMO currently has a story that comes close to rivalling it. It's also amazing that people can't seem to understand that, although the choices you make aren't going to make a difference in terms of your character progression for the sake of balance, they DO, in fact, make a difference in your storyline and how your character is viewed.  Not every decision you make has impact, and none of them impact actual gameplay, but they DO impact the story.  

It's funny to me how people who are hell-bent on hating this game will find any little reason to talk bad about it, even regarding systems that NO other MMO gives you in terms of story.  

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Metentso

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by kasta

You cannot switch factions nor can you team cross-faction.  If you are an evil jedi you are just an evil jedi.  You will never be and can never be a sith.

Which is definitely mind boggling, eh?

For how many years now, have we been told about the dangers of a Jedi turning to the Dark Side...?

Anakin - Jedi.

Turns to Dark Side.

Vader - Sith Lord.

Mind boggling, eh?

 

What is mind boggling is hundreds of thousands of SW fans not giving a damn about that, and even saying how the story is so immersive and deep and blah blah. Story is just you pushing 3 buttons, good,  bad, neutral and... they don't mean a damn thing lol.

People are amazing.

 

What's amazing is the amount of people bad-mouthing the story aspect of SWTOR despite the fact that no other MMO currently has a story that comes close to rivalling it. It's also amazing that people can't seem to understand that, although the choices you make aren't going to make a difference in terms of your character progression for the sake of balance, they DO, in fact, make a difference in your storyline and how your character is viewed.  Not every decision you make has impact, and none of them impact actual gameplay, but they DO impact the story.  

It's funny to me how people who are hell-bent on hating this game will find any little reason to talk bad about it, even regarding systems that NO other MMO gives you in terms of story.  

I'm happy you are so amused :)

Honestly, I find it very childish those same three replies in all Bioware games but people seem to love it so ok. Also, I prefer being part of a general global story than a story tailored for me, which on top in the end is "kill 10 space rats" and it's also a story on rails, where you can't make a difference.

Peace.

Originally posted by Metentso

I'm happy you are so amused :)

Honestly, I find it very childish those same three replies in all Bioware games but people seem to love it so ok. Also, I prefer being part of a general global story than a story tailored for me, which on top in the end is "kill 10 space rats" and it's also a story on rails, where you can't make a difference.

Peace.

So you prefer single player games then? Gotcha. Cos there isnt a single MMO out there where anything you do makes a difference aside from your own personal story. So you killed that boss and saved the world? Oh but look, hes respawned and another guild is doing it.

Only single player games can have global stories that make a difference.