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World of Warcraft

World of Warcraft 

General Discussion  » And this is why I'm so glad WoW is a thing of the past for me.

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29 posts found
  Warjin

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/09
Posts: 1205

 
OP  11/23/11 11:34:58 PM#1

And this is why World of Warcraft is dieing, Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to many changes, people like to get use to things not relearn how to ride a bike every 6-8 months, people also feel like they really can't play the class they truely enjoy because of massive class changes, for example someone that whats to play a rogue is not really playing a rogue in WoW other then the name it's just a controllable character with no meaning.

Blizzard at the drop of a dime will change the very fabric of that class to suit the needs of there own logic, not taking into consideration the palyers that invested hundreds of hours of time into that type of play.  For those that said "The only thing that can kill WoW is WoW" you are dead right and WoW is doing great job at doing so, and numbers are showing there effects of stupidity.

 

 Death Knight (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

  • On a Pale Horse is now a trainable passive ability and is available to all Death Knights at level 61.
  • A new ability, Control Undead, is now available for all Death Knights. Control Undead dominates an undead creature, placing it under your control for up to 5 minutes. While controlled, the creature attacks 30% slower and casts 20% slower. It has a 30 yard range, costs 1 Unholy rune, and has a 1.5 sec cast time.

Blood

  • Dark Command is now exclusive to Blood.
  • Rune Strike is now exclusive to Blood.

Frost

  • Obliterate is now exclusive to Frost.

Unholy

  • Festering Strike is exclusive to Unholy.

 Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

  • Maul [updated] Now deals 20% more damage to bleeding targets, instead of dealing more damage if the target has a debuff which increases bleed damage.
  • Swipe [updated] Now deals 20% more damage to bleeding targets in addition to it's previous effect.
  • Barkskin [updated] is no longer avaliable to Restoration Druids and is replaced with Ironbark (see below)
  • Might of Ursoc [new] Increases max health by 30% and increases health to 30% (if below that amount)
  • Stampeding Roar [updated] Now removes all roots and snares on affected targets and automatically shifts you into Bear Form if you are not in Bear or Cat Form, in addition to its previous effect.
  • Symbiosis [new] Creates a symbiotic link which grants the Druid one ability belonging to the target's class, varying by the Druid's specialization. In exchange grants the target one Druid ability based on their class and combat role. Lasts one hour and persists through death.

Balance

  • Insect Swarm [updated] The enemy target is swarmed by insects, increasing all damage taken by your Wrath, Starfire, and Starsurge spells by 30%. Limit 1 target.
  • Killer Instinct [new] Grants 100% of your Intellect as Agility when you shapeshift into Bear Form or Cat Form.
  • Wild Mushroom [updated] Now also states that other Wild Mushroom abilities can target these Mushrooms for additional effects.

Feral

  • Mangle [updated] No longer states that it boosts bleed damage.
  • Tiger's Fury [updated] Now restores 60 energy upon use in addition to its original effect.
  • Savage Roar [updated] Now increases damage done by 30%. Lasts longer per combo point.
  • Thrash [updated] Thrash all nearby enemies, dealing immediate physical damage and periodic bleed damage. Damage varies by shapeshift form

Guardian

  • Mangle [updated] No longer states that it boosts bleed damage.
  • Savage Defense [updated] Now simply an ability that reduces all physical damage taken by 60% for 3 sec.
  • Lacerate [updated] Now grants a 30% change to reset the cooldown on Mangle.
  • Thrash [updated] Now states that damage varies by shapeshift form in addition to its original effects.
  • Survival Instincts [updated] Now reduces damage taken by 60% and is only usable in Bear Form.
  • Skull Bash [updated] Now increases mana cost of all spells from the interrupted spell school by 10% for 10 sec in addition to its previous effects.
  • Frenzied Regeneration [updated] Converts up to 2 rage per second into health for 10 sec. Each point of rage is converted into 2% of max health.

Restoration

  • Regrowth [updated] Now exclusive to Restoration.
  • Ironbark [new] The target's skin becomes as tough ironwood, reducing all damage taken by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
  • Wild Mushroom [new] Grow a magic Mushroom with 5 health at the target location. After 6 seconds, the Mushroom will become invisible. Other Wild Mushroom abilities can target these Mushrooms for additional effects. Only 3 Mushrooms can be placed at one time.
  • Wild Mushroom: Bloom [new] Causes all of your wild mushrooms to bloom, healing all allies within 6 yards for X.

Talents

  • Wild Charge [updated] Grants a movement ability that varies by shapeshift form:
    Non-shapeshifted: Fly to an ally's position and your next healing spell costs no mana.
    Bear Form: Charge to an enemy, immobilizing them and granting you 30% haste.
    Cat Form: Leap behind an enemy and cause your next Ravage to cost no energy, not require stealth, and have no positioning requirement.
    Moonkin Form: Bound backward and gain 20 lunar or solar energy, whichever is more beneficial to you.
    Travel Form: Leap forward 20 yards and take 20% reduced damage for 10 sec.
    Flight Form: Increases flight speed by an additional 20% for 30 sec.
    Aquatic Form: Increases swim speed by an additional 200% and take 20% reduced damage for 10 sec.
  • Incarnation [updated] Activates a superior shapeshifting form appropriate to your specialization for 30 sec. You may freely shapeshift in and out of this form for its duration.
    Balance: Chosen of Elune Improved Moonkin Form that increases Arcane and Nature damage by 20% and reduces all damage taken by 15%.
    Feral: King of the Jungle - Improved Cat Form that allows the use of all abilities which normally require stealth, and allows use of Prowl while in combat.
    Guardian: Son of Ursoc Improved Bear Form that reduces the cooldown on all melee abilities to 1.5 sec.
    Restoration: Tree of Life Tree of Life Form that increases armor by 120% and enhances Lifebloom, Wild Growth, Regrowth, Entangling Roots, and Wrath spellcasts
  • Heart of the Wild [updated] Dramatically improves the Druid's ability to serve combat roles outside of normal specialization for 45 sec.
    Balance: Healing spells generate Lunar or Solar Energy and benefit from Lunar and Solar Eclipse. In addition, grants 50% of Intellect as Agility, 100% of hit rating as expertise rating, and increases armor by 95% while in Bear Form.
    Feral: Grants 50% of Agility as Intellect, increases hit rating by 100%, and increases armor by 95% while in Bear Form. In addition, regenerates 2% of maximum mana every 5 sec.
    Guardian: Grants 50% of Agility as Intellect, increases hit rating by 100%. In addition, regenerates 2% of maximum mana every 5 sec.
    Restoration: Grants 50% of Intellect as Agility and 100% of Spirit as hit rating and expertise rating, and increases armor by 95% while in Bear Form. In addition, damage spells cost no mana.

 Hunter (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

Survival

  • Counterattack has been removed.
  • Hunting Party (Passive) no longer increases your Agility by 2%.

 Mage (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

  • Shatter (Passive) [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Improved Blink (Passive) [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Burning Soul (Passive) [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Improved Counterspell (Passive) [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Living Bomb [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Deep Freeze [updated] Is now trainable by all specs.
  • Alter Time [new] Alter the fabric of time, causing the caster to return to their current location, health, mana, and conditions after 4 sec. Effect negated if the caster dies within the 4 sec before the effect occurs.

Arcane

  • Arcane Blast [updated] Is now exclusive to Arcane.
  • Arcane Missiles [updated] Is now exclusive to Arcane.
  • Arcane Orb [new] Launches an Arcane Orb forward from the Mage's position, dealing 302 Arcane damage every second to all nearby enemy targets for 15 sec.

Fire

  • Fireball [updated] Is now exclusive to Fire.
  • Pyroblast [updated] Now states that your direct damage critical strikes have a chance to make your next pyroblast instant cast and cost no mana, in addition to its previous effects.
  • Flame Orb[updated] Is now exclusive to Fire.

Frost

  • Frostbolt [updated] Is now exclusive to Frost.
  • Brain Freeze (passive) [updated] Your direct damage spells have a 15% chance to cause your next Frostfire Bolt spell to be instant cast and cost no mana.
  • Frost Orb [new] Launches a Frost Orb forward from the Mage's position, dealing 302 Frost damage every second to the closest enemy target for 15 sec. Targets damaged by the Frost Orb are slowed by 40% for 2 sec.

Talents

Level 15

  • (Level 15) New - Ice Ward replaces Cone of Cold. "When an enemy strikes the target, all enemies within 10 yds will become frozen in place for 5 sec. 1 charge. lasts 30 sec."
  • (Level 30/60) All Level 30 talents have been swapped with Level 60 talents.
  • (Level 75/90) All Level 75 talents have been swapped with Level 90 talents.

 Paladin (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

  • Seal of Command is back and trainable at level 3.
  • Judgement has a 6 second CD, down from 8.
  • Word of Glory now has no cooldown for Protection and Retribution instead of just Holy.
  • Supplication, a new version of Crusade, is a passive ability that increases the effect of your Flash of Light if cast within 15 seconds of killing a target that yields experience or honor.
  • Blessing of Kings no longer increases magical resistances.
  • Seal of Insight increases your healing done by 5% in addition to it's current effect.
  • Heart of the Crusader is a new passive ability that increases your mounted speed by 20%.
  • Blessing of Might increases mastery instead of attack power/restoring mana.
  • Blinding Light Emits a dazzling light in all directions, blinding enemies within 10 yards, causing them to wander disoriented for 6 seconds. 3 minutes cooldown, instant cast, 20% base mana

Talents

  • Speed of Light
    1 minute cooldown, instant cast
    Increases your movement speed by 60% for 6 seconds, in addition:
    Holy
    Reduces damage taken by 20% for 12 seconds.
    Protection
    Increases damage done by 10% for 12 seconds.
    Retribution
    Radiates 1000 healing to allies within 10 yards for 12 seconds.
  • Long Arm of the Law now lasts for 2 seconds, down from 4.
  • Burden of Guilt Your Judgement hits fill your target with doubt and remorse, reducing movement speed by 50% for 12 seconds.

Holy

  • Divine Plea is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Divine Light is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Holy Light is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Holy Radiance is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Devotion Aura is now "Inspire all party members within 40 yards, granting them immunity to Silence and Interrupt effects and reducing all Fire, Frost and Shadow damage by 20%. Lasts 6 seconds. 2 minute cooldown."
  • Holy Wrath is now "Sends bolts of power in all directions, causing 2727 Holy damage divided among all targets within 10 yds and prevents targets from causing critical effecs for the next 6 seconds. 1.5 sec cast, 6% base mana."

Protection

  • Hammer of the Righteous Hammer the current target for 39% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets within 8 yards for 1192 Holy damage and reduces their physical damage done by 10% for 30 seconds. Grants a charge of Holy Power. Exclusive to Protection and Retribution.

Retribution

  • Judgments of the Bold (Passive) is now "Your Judgement hits grant one charge of Holy Power and increase the physical damage taken by your target by 4% for 12 sec."
  • New - Crusader's Zeal (Passive) is now "Your normal melee attacks have a chance to increase your attack speed by 25% for your next 3 melee swings."
  • Seal of Justice Fills the Paladin with Holy Light, causing direct attacks to reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for 6 sec and deal 12 additional holy damage.
  • Exorcism Causes 3250 Holy damage to an enemy target and generates a charge of Holy Power. Your auto attacks have a 20% chance to activate Exorcism. Instant cast. Exclusive to Retribution.
  • Sanctity of Battle (Passive) Haste effects lower the cooldown and global cooldown of your Judgement, Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.
  • Divine Storm An area attack that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to cause 100% weapon damage to enemies within 8 yards. Exclusive to Retribution.
  • Hammer of the Righteous Hammer the current target for 39% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets within 8 yards for 1192 Holy damage and reduces their physical damage done by 10% for 30 seconds. Grants a charge of Holy Power. Exclusive to Protection and Retribution.

 Priest (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)


  • New - Dark Thoughts - Level 10 Gives 70% pushback reduction for Shadow abilities. Passive.
  • New - Holy Focus - Level 10 Gives 70% pushback reduction for Discipline and Holy abilities. Passive.
    *Probably intended to be spec specific passives.

Discipline

  • Holy Fire is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Greater Heal is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Prayer of Mending is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Hymn of Hope is now exclusive to Discipline.

Holy

  • Holy Fire is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Greater Heal is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Prayer of Mending is now exclusive to Discipline & Holy.
  • Renew is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Heal is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Binding Heal is now exclusive to Holy.
  • Divine Hymn is now exclusive to Holy.

Shadow

  • It would appear Mind Blast & Devouring Plague have been removed completely - talents affect the former though so potentially just a typo.

 Rogue (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)


  • Restless Strikes is now available to all Rogues.
  • Quickening is now available to all Rogues but no longer increases healing received.

  Faelsun

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/07
Posts: 482

11/24/11 12:56:26 AM#2

Alter time is totally meaningless and just an excuse to boost mage DPS, I mean I have not played since right before CAT because I saw this coming, but my god if I were in a BG with THAT skill your talking 4 second suicide mage, and thats exactly whats going to happen dps you down till they cant take any more probably use that new AOE nuke they were given.. bam 4 seconds rince and repeat. just imagine them group bombing flag rooms with that.  WOW is truly in silly mode now. Dear god what kind of Arena groups are gonna be formed from that trash... How can you even take yourself seriously in Arena in this game anymore, the pvp is beyond bad. 

  Hoplites

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/06
Posts: 442

11/24/11 10:31:28 PM#3

I think this is all confusing to be honest and may be right up there with  Star Wars CU introduction.

 

 

  jerlot65

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/08
Posts: 802

11/24/11 10:39:11 PM#4

The only reaction by WoW's players i've seen yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h5Qk&feature=related

 

 

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1216

11/27/11 2:47:59 AM#5

All games change though, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. Back 5 years ago, I would have probably had a hissy fit and bashed Blizzard and WoW, but now I prefer to just see how it pans out. A lot of the older games have gone through lots of changes. EQ2 has had several big reviews of classes. Just look at how bad SKs used to be and how uber they are now for example.

Looking at the feral and balance Druid though, there are some changes but they are not super huge except for possibly how savage defense (from absorption right now to damage reduction with the changes). 

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  cirdane

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/07
Posts: 38

11/27/11 4:03:27 AM#6

spot on ,

Wife and I left after playing from launch when they made the focus change to hunters. Comming out after 5 years and saying "ya well we want to go back to the idea we had in alpha and for all you mana hunters who don't like it the door is that way." even tried the focus thing giving them the benefit of the doubt. It felt like you were simply a rogues poor relation. Hell of a  lot of egos with contempt for their player base in that building.

 

  Morgaren

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/09
Posts: 394

For me, the gates will open.

11/27/11 4:10:54 AM#7

Renew is holy exclusive? WTF?

  Scalebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 2240

11/27/11 4:16:54 AM#8

they are just getting started in tweaking the new system since i'm sure MOP isn't coming out anytime soon and they'll be taking feedback from players in their beta as they always do.  still except for a few things doesn't look to bad at all so far.

the whole change may or may not work out for them, i understand one of the reasons is to stop with this whole cookie cutter build thing but honestly i think it will only help a little, guess i'll just have to wait and find out if i get a beta invite lol.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2232

First came pride, then envy.

12/02/11 10:59:44 PM#9

Those DK changes make sense though. On a Pale Horse & Control Undead is questionable.

I know what you mean too.  When cata had major overhauls to the game, it kind of ruined the experience for me.  Sometimes change keeps the game fresh though, but too many changes also turns people off, especially when they're so used to their character's rotations and specs.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1428

12/03/11 1:58:35 PM#10

I completely agree with the OP. I loved playing a solo fire mage - this isn't a sensible option now and frost mages quickly get boring. 

My subsription has expired. 

  Tedly224

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/09
Posts: 163

12/04/11 3:49:26 AM#11

Thank you for the post. I canceled my sub and sold the account off about 3 months after the launch of WoTLK (got some good cash for it too) and have been playing other things since then.

The thing is, I glance towards what Blizzard is up to with the game out of curiosity every so often. Just to see what they're doing to encourage new players to play, as well as retain current players to stay.

Looking at this list you've posted, it appears they're encouraging players to believe that they really had no freaking CLUE as to what they were doing with their game launch years back, 'cause obviously, this is their vision of what WoW should have been all along... or... something...

It's sorta rare you see an MMO undergo drastic sweeping character class changes like this. Again and again. Star Wars Galaxies really is the last time we've seen it. Maybe other game companies won't require a 3rd MMO to go this route to finally get the lesson learned.

 

  mgilbrtsn

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/14/09
Posts: 1125

He who fights and runs away... misses out on the loot

12/04/11 3:51:50 AM#12

And if they kept it all the same... what would people be saying.... I know you know.......  Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

They are coming for you!

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3387

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

12/04/11 3:52:36 AM#13

Sounds like someone never played an MMO before...

These are rather standard patch notes, if you think this is a lot you should have seen BC -> Wrath patch notes.

Over react more OP.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3387

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

12/04/11 3:56:09 AM#14
Originally posted by Jack_Target

I completely agree with the OP. I loved playing a solo fire mage - this isn't a sensible option now and frost mages quickly get boring. 

My subsription has expired. 

They just buffed fire, fire is infact the strongest DPS in the game right now...

Please at least try and be remotely accurate with your info..

http://www.simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html   <--   DPS Sim numbers  

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1216

12/04/11 4:01:45 AM#15
Originally posted by Tedly224

It's sorta rare you see an MMO undergo drastic sweeping character class changes like this. Again and again. Star Wars Galaxies really is the last time we've seen it. Maybe other game companies won't require a 3rd MMO to go this route to finally get the lesson learned.

 

It is not rare at all to see sweeping changes like this. Again, I refer to my EQ2 example, EQ1 as well, DAoC, etc. In fact, EQ2 has seen several class and AA revamps. How do you know how it will play out with drastic knee jerk reactions anyway? Did you test the changes? If you are so worried, you could find out once the changes are made on the test server and give them a try. I did that a few times and it told me what I wanted to know. There is the added advantage that you can give your feedback as well.

But I guess it is easier to scream in frustration and hit the "cancel" button.

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  User Deleted
12/04/11 4:02:20 AM#16

Dang. I thought my Disc Priest was overly nerfed when I could no longer spam shields. Now no Renew or Binding? I haven't done any raiding for a while, but is there still a reason to be a Disc Priest?

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3387

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

12/04/11 4:05:44 AM#17
Originally posted by Joarnaj

Dang. I thought my Disc Priest was overly nerfed when I could no longer spam shields. Now no Renew or Binding? I haven't done any raiding for a while, but is there still a reason to be a Disc Priest?

As its currently the stronger spec of priest, and a very very strong healer in general, that doesn't use renew already. 

Yes, they're great, and they still will be.

  User Deleted
12/04/11 4:12:03 AM#18
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Joarnaj

Dang. I thought my Disc Priest was overly nerfed when I could no longer spam shields. Now no Renew or Binding? I haven't done any raiding for a while, but is there still a reason to be a Disc Priest?

As its currently the stronger spec of priest, and a very very strong healer in general, that doesn't use renew already. 

Yes, they're great, and they still will be.

Hmm... that's cool, then. I haven't raided since WotLK so all I knew when Cat arrived was that it would take a lot of getting used to. Seemed like we got the short end of the stick back then. Yes, Renew was not a primary by any stretch, but still was effective at times - especially in 5 mans.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3387

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

12/04/11 4:16:47 AM#19
Originally posted by Joarnaj
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Joarnaj

Dang. I thought my Disc Priest was overly nerfed when I could no longer spam shields. Now no Renew or Binding? I haven't done any raiding for a while, but is there still a reason to be a Disc Priest?

As its currently the stronger spec of priest, and a very very strong healer in general, that doesn't use renew already. 

Yes, they're great, and they still will be.

Hmm... that's cool, then. I haven't raided since WotLK so all I knew when Cat arrived was that it would take a lot of getting used to. Seemed like we got the short end of the stick back then. Yes, Renew was not a primary by any stretch, but still was effective at times - especially in 5 mans.

Let me explain something to everyone then, to all of those out there who are confused or annoyed by the changes.

 

LISTEN UP!    :-D

 

They are removing abilites that are not optimal for your spec, that means 'ITS A TRAP' abilities, things that if you use them you are silly or downright foolish to use t hem, are being removed from that spec.

THIS IS GOOD!

Blizz is helping us out here, they're making it so you don't get stuck in a party where a healer is using the wrong heal cus they don't know better, or a DPS is spamming an attack they shouldn't even be using at all.  It happen a lot in heroics when you get some random people in there that random element is sometimes stupid.

 

  Tedly224

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/09
Posts: 163

12/05/11 3:03:28 PM#20

Actually, you're right. I took a look at a number of popular MMO's that survived to the 4+ year mark and noticed that more often than not, they do undergo some severe changes to character gameplay. City of Heroes, Eve Online, and only a couple of others didn't bother after the 3+ year mark as they seemed to have "done it right in the first place" with their view of mechanics.

 

So, this leaves me having to draw a conclusion between two different things. The first is that the average MMO after the 3rd year mark will take a look at itself and say "crap. we were wrong all this time on many sweeping issues. I guess it's time to change the game in really big ways and hope the gaming community will understand it's for the good of the game's future."

And then the gaming company will like, only do it once. Sony with their Everquest games, which was used as an example, falls into this. I am specifically referencing Large, Drastic changes that completely alter how a class performs at its core.

But then we have other games that roll out huge, sweeping changes as a matter of course for character mechanics every 3 years, so it's like, the game developers are showing that they've changed their minds multiple times. Which means, I guess, that they again don't really know what they're doing or what they want, and expect paying players to constantly beta test their own game past the 3 year mark. And accept multiple changes.

Or. Or. The other conclusion I could make is that game developers make drastic sweeping character mechanics changes in an effort to "make the game feel fresh" in generating new attention and try to keep existing players, so that they experience a newness of play with the changed characters. I could conclude that it's all about marketing, and not at all about being "for the good of the game's future" in terms of balance.

Some people will say that "it's expected" and "it's going to be all good". And they might be right. But there is certainly nothing wrong with people seeing what's going on and not feeling that it's something they should be paying for, and that "it's not all good".

 

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