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11/25/11 1:51:50 PM#121
Originally posted by Xthos I work hard enough everyday on job. I'm not in to mood to come home a pay company to make me work harder on a game. SOme of us realize that it is just a game and nothing more than a form of entertainment. If an MMORPG doesn't wan't to set us back 30 minutes and allows us to jump right in and enjoy the meat of the game, then I'm all for it.
I'm going to let you know something. Most people who play games for entertainment don't care how hard or easy the game is for other people. |
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11/25/11 3:27:40 PM#122
Originally posted by bossalinie I work also...I don't mean that you need not be able to play, think someone thought that. I just mean that if would take 15-30 minutes worth of mob killing to get the xp back, heck 10-15 is fine imo. I was not saying you couldn't have 'fun' for 15-30 minutes.
As easy as games are anymore, I guess it doesn't matter, since you rarely die anymore anyway..But that goes to the challenge part.
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11/25/11 3:36:32 PM#123
Originally posted by Xthos Games where the 'death penalty' is used as a travel method are just poorly designed. Once you get past that, you really do not need a serious death penalty to keep things challenging. I am generally in favour of resetting at the beginning of the current encounter and for all the mobs in that encounter to rest and fully heal up. It should cost you about 5 min of game time to be able to try again though you might want to spend more to properly anaylyse why you died the first time. On basic encounters you probably know why you died even before you lose the last hitpoint. Since I am not a gambler I get no rush from death penalties and properly designed encounters are just as challenging with or without them. |
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11/25/11 3:56:49 PM#124
Originally posted by Torik Well, I do not like instances, so their would be no reset in what I prefer, and as for games with death penalty being poorly designed, I think a lot of people would disagree, as I do, since EQ1 had a death penalty and I think it was a great game up till instanced content took over. By saying I dislike instances, doesn't mean I don't play anything with it, as thats nearly impossible anymore, but were just saying what we think...If someone was around to rez you in EQ1, you didn't lose much at all, but if not you did lose a little bit, nothing big. I mean 'death penalty' is subjective, I am saying 15-30 minutes of xp hunting, and probably less than 5 if you get rezd, you are saying a 5 minute set back in an instance towards a goal. Both could be classified as such...
I mean this will sound silly, but what makes my penalty so much worse than your? Also if mine is too harsh, is yours? Should you instant rez at a safe distance from your corpse and have a debuff on stats for 5 minutes? Should you not have that debuff cause thats too harsh? Is that all too harsh and you keep your buffs from before death and are full health mana, so you can go at the mob again instantly? If he killed you before, maybe its health shouldn't regen? Not being a prick, but I don't see where my suggestion is crazy, and if it is, then where is the line, since your solution also is a penalty, even though you didn't view it as such? Thats where penalty and difficulty come in imo...I know not everyone is like this, but if you lower the bar too much, I couldn't get myself to care about playing a game like that...I am not saying a game has to give you lashings, just make it so you care if you die, and try to make someone improve their tactics and learn from it...Some may not need it as someone else said, but I have seen too many people just do too many stupid things when their isn't any xp penalty (even when their is, but usually these people quit, because the game is too 'hard').
I don't want a game to make people quit, just be competant, to where they are not going to get me killed 24/7, like cloth casters thinking they are tanks because they can life drain or heal themselves a little....Then get everyone killed repeatedly.
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11/25/11 4:23:10 PM#125
Your analogy is a bit off.
Many Players want a game that challenges them, they want to feel a sense of accomplishment for over coming a challenege and lastly they want a sense of pride and recognition for overcoming a challenge. The majoirty of an MMO game is centered around killing stuff so the challenge is built by providing you a Monster to fight and a sets of simple skills that can be combined to a certain order that will provide you a win. Then it is up to you, the Player, to understand your skills, watch the Monster and environment and adapt / use your skills intelligently. The problem with a no death pnealty system and the above scenario is that a Player could avoid the challenge by simply randomly pushing keys as fast as possible without any strategy, thought or intelligence. All they need to have is a huge amount of free time and click on the respawn button. This crude playstyle isn't an accomplishment and doesn't show any ability to overcome the challenge through thought, wisdom or strategy. So a heavy death penalty actually preserves the challenge and forces the intelligent / strategic playstyle, if someone attempts to random button mash / faceroll their way through the challenge they are certain to die many many times before they are lucky enough to press the right random sequence of keys. If the hard death penalty weakens the player a small amount each time they die then many repeated random deaths actually can ensure that the player will be so weak they simple can not win against the challenge even with the perfect strategy. So wanting challenge and success in an MMO is not different than the drive to get a 2000 on your SATs or running a 40 meter dash in under 4.5 seconds. Its competition against yourself.
The trouble with many mainstream MMOs is that they fail to prove any meaningful challenges and on the off chance they create a truly challenging encounter they later will weaken the encounter when less strategic players complain the challenge is too hard, thus diminishing the work and success of the better players that defeated it before them.
Basically Mainstream MMOs are like some Adventure's DayCare service, if you show up, play casually, and roll your face across your keyboard you will be handed all the rewards available in game and be judged just as good err.. I mean bad as everyone else playing because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by recognizing the harsh truth that not everyone has the same skill, intelligence or ability.
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11/25/11 4:38:39 PM#126
The danger is fun. It turns boring activities into thrilling ones. Also, The danger prevents people from exploring certain types of content and rewards those who do. The danger keeps the industry working and so on. No death penalty = No danger. |
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Originally posted by Greenzor Really? Because when I'm riding on the street I don't pull wheelies and stoppies for no reason. I still find riding fun without danger. I also find World of Warcraft fun with a few friends when we just blaze through dungeons after we blazed. |
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Originally posted by bossalinie ^ This man has a brain, this is also the type of person that is like more than 50% of WoW's sub...and every other MMO that wants to be successful. |
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11/25/11 5:10:13 PM#129
Going to try this again lol. Why are people obbessed with difficulty and death penalties? Pretty simple they are sick of the easy games and find that they need a certain kind of play either more difficult, meaning, or somethig to have fun with it. Like lreal life everyone s different and so all will enjoy different thigns as well as at different levels of that type. Issue is these people are not the majority anymore and so are not cattered to, as such they are feeling left out as well as unfullfiled in their gaming experience. Simple really vary simple to understand. |
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11/25/11 5:45:58 PM#130
Originally posted by Elricmerren Then why aren't these people all go play Darkfall etc..? I know Darkfall has what is being asked here...with much passion by many at that. Darkfall did many things badly in my opinion, even DP, but it did try hard to bring a DP that caters to the people here. You can be punished for failure while you are crafting in an NPC town in Darkfall, you can be punished for failure for just trying to advance in the world, and you can be punished for failure just because someone did not like your name or your looks in Darkfall. More punishment for failure you cannot have. LoL
I really do not see where the failure of these exemples really is, and maybe that is why I am not playing Darkfall yet, it should be Catering to all those here that are obsessed by DP of thsi sort. Why aren't they playing DF then? - Duke Suraknar -
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11/25/11 5:50:50 PM#131
Originally posted by Suraknar dont be foolish. there will never be 1 game that unites everyone that wants a certain type of game. EVERY. SINGLE. FACTOR. in a game can turn someone off completely, be it the graphics, the music, or the monster types being killed. just because the core gameplay may be what you THINK those type of people are asking for, doesn't mean thats the only thing that matters. if its not their type of graphics, they wont play it, if they hate the music, and refuse to mute it, they wont play it, the list goes on.
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11/25/11 5:54:56 PM#132
Originally posted by Suraknar But to most they want a triple A mmo, that is not to say they all want that, but that a good amount do. Alot of Df's dp is not meaning ful yes you have risk but the reward is not worth the risk in man aspects, another versions not as good is eve many find the risk of using a high cost ship not worth it for the penelty of failure. IT would be like jumping off a five story building for a sub to have for dnnner it is risk with a penalty yet is that risj worth the penalty? No well i hope to freaking not for most people's sake. Older games like l2, uo. even had a system with good management of risk to rewards making the penalty worth risking for it. THen you also have that DF, L2 and such just not being completely up to date and so many will play them but want a new AAA mmos that cattter to the risk to reward setting with a worth while dealth penalty. Let me ask you this when you played your favorite game/mmo and then moved on to a game that was just not as good completed to it, did you want a better game that matched hwo fun and enjoyable your other game was? To have that polished look, nearly perfect (in your eyes.) system, and controls that immersed you in the game. |
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11/25/11 6:20:31 PM#133
Originally posted by Elricmerren They are catered to, but: - For MMOs, usually not in the same games as players that don't want a death penalty. After all, they want everyone else who plays the game to be subject to the same death penalty. I see only one way to try to please both groups at the same time: having different servers, with different rules. AoC and Ultima Online actually do this, though in both cases the different server types were released way after launch. - They are less catered to than players that dislike harsh death penalties for the simple reason there are more players out there that don't really want death penalties. If the devs want their game to have a general appeal, but don't want the complexity of catering to two groups of players often at odds, they are most likely going to choose the largest group to cater to. I don't see this changing any time soon. While players that dislike death penalties often don't care if there is an optional death penalty - they would just turn it off - players that want a harsher death penalty often take offense if other players can, in some way, turn the death penalty off; they want everyone else to have to go through the same challenges, no matter the other player's oppinion. Unless and until a way is found to let players that dislike death penalties avoid them, while not irking those that want death penalties, the situation won't be changing. For my part, I stay away from harsh death penalties (i.e., almost anything harsher than WoW). I either don't even start playing the game, or I leave as soon as I notice that I don't like the intensity of the death penalty. After all, with the amount of games out there, there are plenty of options if I don't like one aspect of a game. |
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11/25/11 6:33:54 PM#134
Originally posted by FabioCapela I knwo what you mean i have been playing since uo basically, and seen the trends so far go just liek that. THe issue is i would not call what this group of player gets as being cattered to but more that they get appeased with servers that give them basically what they want, yet never actually being the focus of the game as in many of these games the dp or difficulty is added on to it not a central focus or a main point of the game. It is like saying since wow has pvp that it catters to pvper, it is just not true as the pvp was added on to appease the pvp group of players there. |
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11/25/11 6:45:07 PM#135
Well, i don't think the people actually want harsh death penalties and a very high difficulty. I think it's just gamers' natural response to being fed dumb gameplay, where you don't have to think, try harder, feel the consequenses of your mistakes and so on. People are tired of games where you are on autopilot. MMORPGs are loaded with fluff, which may be short time fun, but not lasting. Simply put, people just want to feel that they (their abilities) are challenged in their virtual worlds and want to win these challenges. Winning in something you feel it's too easy doesn't give you satisfaction. |
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11/25/11 6:52:32 PM#136
Originally posted by Lienhart here we go with the analogies of Riding a rice burner and playing a game. I own a GTO Judge, Sure it's fun to drive around and have everyone look at you. But it's even more fun to take the bitch out to a track or the lowly traveled road and burn it up against another driver seeing who wins. The Risk of flipping my judge, loosing control from a blown out tire at top speeds, having the engine blow out and catch fire, or in the worst case scenario trying tou get away with Motorolla chasing you (some will get that, Some won't) In games I can either play your cookie cut MMO's that let me run around PVE, PVP with no risk and no danger, no true rush from the " Oh shit! That dude Fucked me up and almost made me loose my shit" or... Damn I died, eh :: Waits for 10 seconds to pass and presses respawn:: and go on blandly running dungeons again either Solo or if I suck with a group because the big bad monster might whoop my ass. Real gamers Want Risk vs Reward, We want to feel like we achieved something, we busted our asses Risked our shit and knew if we failed, which is not an option, that we goto pay more attention next time, study our opponents or mob (without looking at a Wiki or YOUTUBE video on how to succeed) we figure it out on our own, we take the risks and the challenge openly, throwing fate into the wind, If we win we get epic items, if we fail we get the challenge of having to reclaim our stuff either before someone else grabs it, or it vanishes. As much as I like the Rush of racing my vehicle. I also like the rush of a game I am playing. I personally don't like games that have no risk, theres no challenge. In PVP I know I just respawn and face a different opponent, in Real PVP I know that I better kill that dude/dudette or just like Life, If I die, well I just lost my shit. Without a challenge you are not truley playing a game, you are just going through the motions of a game. Some people like not having to have a risk, Just like some people like living in a free country without the urge to defend it's freedoms. They know well that theres some one else that will defend it for them and just leech off of society ranting and raving because of the first amendment not truley understanding the loss that occured to grant them that freedom. If everyone just went through the motions think where we would be today, and before anyone goess off about it, No I didn't Serve, not that I did not want to, I just was not accepted due to issues I had, But that does not mean I do not know the risk my friends in service take to give me the ability to play these games, rant and rave and troll the internet with freedom. If you do not like games with a challenge or a penalty if you die, IT is and I say this with pissing off the community the fact that you can not survive the challenge offered to you. You are one of the gamers that want to live in a world where there is no risk, is no challenge, just a cookie cut life knowing if all fails, Well you know you have that security blanket to hug to keep the monsters that players and more difficult AI/NPC's offer, away.
Rant over... For now.. 
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11/25/11 7:05:13 PM#137
Well duh this is easy to answer. You don't get hurt in real life when failing in a game. I may admire people who are very skilled at doing many of the things mentioned here but a part of me thinks, 'this person is stupid for risking his life just to impress others or whatever'. I have not broken any bones or ever had stitches because I play it safe and do not take risks often at all that invole possibly hurting myself. That is why I love challenging myself with video games instead of real life activities that could injure me. I have a greater chance of living longer than those who do take those risks. I have taken many risks with drugs though . .. so I guess I have been a risk taker where others wouldn't dare but that makes me stupid and nothing to do with bravery. Same thing goes with dare devil stunts. Video games that have high difficulty or something like a death penalty are potentially more likely to summon real emotions within the players like "damn it I died!!!!" or "woooot epic win!!!". Just like in real life but you don't have to risk hurting yourself. NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do. |
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11/25/11 7:36:12 PM#138
Originally posted by ShadowMajere One you do relise you sound like you have an Inferiority complex right? Your saying that since someone else can actually enjoy a game with less or no risk and challage that they are not a gamer? Who talk about being full of it. So what about people who get a rush and enjoyment out of reading a book, or watching a movie, or telling a ghost story hmmm? Everyone is a true gamer they enjoy and play a game for entertainment so get off your high horse and mvoe on, as your the type that had to poke at people to show how you are somehow much better then them. I amm glad you never got take into the army your feeling to show off hwo hardcore and real you are for taking a more challenging style of play, very well might have gotten them killed or worse. Most of the guys and women i know who server or served will not ship or deal with people like you as your a liabilty with the attitude to try and say your better then others. Some of us out there actually prefer to actually enjoy the story, relax wiht some friends, and just game without having to always be hardcore bs. Guess what also real pvp you do know that alot of the bggest rushes for pvp combat come from fps, that have no death penalty short of a time sink called waiting to respawn. |
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11/25/11 11:12:37 PM#139
Originally posted by rutaq If you're speaking literally about "no death penalty" then sure. But virtually no games use that (certainly no MMORPGs,) and nobody really wants that. What we want -- and what often gets called "no death penalty" even though it isn't -- is the lightest penalty required: a fight reset. With a fight reset, the skill check is absolute: until you exhibit enough skill, you will never ever beat the encounter. It won't matter that you instantly respawn nearby with full HP and buffs, because the mob will have also reset.
Note that all of the skill is required before death penalty kicks in. |
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11/25/11 11:29:34 PM#140
To OP : No offence.... but u sound like a clumbsy idiot waiting to die. Buckle up wear a helmet and good luck with all ur ventures :D http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/char_tool/CT_imageGenerator.php?pseudo=Centurion%20Mikal&lang=EN&code=&code=TSwtLDUsLSw2LC0sMjksOSwyMiwyMywyNCwtLDEwMiwzNiw4MSw4NCw4OQ%3D%3D |
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