Originally posted by XAleX360

Not to mention Bioware made the wise decision of skipping racial-unique gameplay bonuses, things that totally screwed WoW PvP (Horde used to always ever superior ones). 

PvE is the primary focus, but I believe SWTOR's PvP could be a sleeper hit.

Good call! That is a huge one. I'm gonna put that in my post. I'll credit your name. 

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by XAleX360

Not to mention Bioware made the wise decision of skipping racial-unique gameplay bonuses, things that totally screwed WoW PvP (Horde used to always ever superior ones). 

PvE is the primary focus, but I believe SWTOR's PvP could be a sleeper hit.

Good call! That is a huge one. I'm gonna put that in my post. I'll credit your name. 

Meh, to me personally that is a negative. Race should be an interesting choice to make and not just about which looks appeal to you most. Imo they should have different usefull abilities and/or stats; just balance them properly.

I had three rogues in WOW (gnome, human, undead) and the little racial differences gave them just a little extra touch / speciality in specific combat situations. (And the flimsiest of justifications to roll multiple rogues, I know, but i really liked them).

Fuck the Balance is all i say - it ruins any game!
Make mighty chars very hard to aquire, to grow, to develope, make them very vulnerable along the way and let them bear the greatest risks and even permadeath when playing and failing.
Make weak chars easy to get, having only low risk when failing and no permadeath.
The players will find out and sort out what they want and balance themself.
Equality -> Mediocrity!

No MMO with any kind of character diversity has ever been truly balanced. Too many variables involved.

There's a reason Blizzard, the "masters of balance" with infinite resources, have spent 7 years failing to achieve that perception.

There's only one way to achieve balance, and that is to make everyone the same - like in a Chess game. As soon as you introduce significant complexity - which is inevitable in a true MMO - you will never reach that goal.

I'm looking forward to when developers and players will realise that, because then we can start letting the only compensation truly come into play. Which is?

Adapting.

Do what you can as a developer to balance your game, and then release it. Then be patient. Very patient. Make changes at REGULAR intervals - and inform the players. I'd suggest every 6 months, after the initial outright balance issues and bugs have been fixed.

We have this uncanny ability to adapt to seemingly insurmountable odds - and that's how you balance the game. Not through mechanics or numbers, but through human creativity.

At least, that's where I come out.

Originally posted by Blutmaul

Fuck the Balance is all i say - it ruins any game!
Make mighty chars very hard to aquire, to grow, to develope, make them very vulnerable along the way and let them bear the greatest risks and even permadeath when playing and failing.
Make weak chars easy to get, having only low risk when failing and no permadeath.
The players will find out and sort out what they want and balance themself.
Equality -> Mediocrity!

That game already exists and everyone is already playing it.

I think you catch my drift :)

Originally posted by DKLond

No MMO with any kind of character diversity has ever been truly balanced. Too many variables involved.

There's a reason Blizzard, the "masters of balance" with infinite resources, have spent 7 years failing to achieve that perception.

There's only one way to achieve balance, and that is to make everyone the same - like in a Chess game. As soon as you introduce significant complexity - which is inevitable in a true MMO - you will never reach that goal.

I'm looking forward to when developers and players will realise that, because then we can start letting the only compensation truly come into play. Which is?

Adapting.

Do what you can as a developer to balance your game, and then release it. Then be patient. Very patient. Make changes at REGULAR intervals - and inform the players. I'd suggest every 6 months, after the initial outright balance issues and bugs have been fixed.

We have this uncanny ability to adapt to seemingly insurmountable odds - and that's how you balance the game. Not through mechanics or numbers, but through human creativity.

At least, that's where I come out.

 

 

The largest problem with that, and I've seen this in many games, is the moment you try to "balance" a game the meta shifts. It's absolute proof that people adapt, but they adapt to bring out the next biggest flaw present in a game and exploit the hell out of it. Balance is very difficult, but thats because it is a precise science and it does require mathematical analysis. However, if a game was a sandbox per se, sure I could see people adapting if there were many other means of dealing with an issue besides using your arsenal of abilities, but in most MMO's thats not the case.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Blutmaul

Fuck the Balance is all i say - it ruins any game!
Make mighty chars very hard to aquire, to grow, to develope, make them very vulnerable along the way and let them bear the greatest risks and even permadeath when playing and failing.
Make weak chars easy to get, having only low risk when failing and no permadeath.
The players will find out and sort out what they want and balance themself.
Equality -> Mediocrity!

That game already exists and everyone is already playing it.

I think you catch my drift :)

huh, I didn't think anyone played hellgate london anymore....odd  :)

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by XAleX360

Not to mention Bioware made the wise decision of skipping racial-unique gameplay bonuses, things that totally screwed WoW PvP (Horde used to always ever superior ones). 

PvE is the primary focus, but I believe SWTOR's PvP could be a sleeper hit.

Good call! That is a huge one. I'm gonna put that in my post. I'll credit your name. 

Meh, to me personally that is a negative. Race should be an interesting choice to make and not just about which looks appeal to you most. Imo they should have different usefull abilities and/or stats; just balance them properly.

I had three rogues in WOW (gnome, human, undead) and the little racial differences gave them just a little extra touch / speciality in specific combat situations. (And the flimsiest of justifications to roll multiple rogues, I know, but i really liked them).

I disagree. Gameplay is king, and too many times racial abilities proved to screw the game balance. That can't be excused.

True, it's a precise science - but the variables involved make balance unachievable. If any group of people could realistically understand and keep in mind every single factor that goes into every single PvP/PvE scenario - then, yes, it would be a matter of time.

But I give you my personal guarentee that it's beyond human capacity to comprehend those factors, and no amount of math will make redundant the human factor. We simply don't have the faculties to compute the numbers and arrive at a fully balanced experience.

We can simulate it and create the perception of balance in SOME players, but it will never be such that MOST players feel it's balanced. MMOs are just too complex. Even if we COULD achieve the perfect balance, human nature is such that if you lose - it's rarely you that's to blame. It's always the lack of balance.

This is my claim, anyway.

Originally posted by tekniko64
I wonder if the OP realized that the whole stun being used at criticals times and the ability to break out on a two minute timer is already in WoW.

Yes I realize that's already in every game. The reason I mention it is because I feel it is even more emphasized in this game. CC isn't quite as powerful in TOR as it is in some other games, but if you use it properly it can be very effective. 

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Originally posted by maskedweasel

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Originally posted by C1d0s

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Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by dubyahite
 
Resolve. This is brilliant. If you don't know about this system, it is a meter under your health bar. Everyone can see it. Every time you are crowd controled the meter fills up a little bit. When it is full you become immune to CC for a short time. This is a great way of balancing crowd control. It also fits in with the category of properly timing your CC. You can see your oponents resolve meter, so don't waste your CC while it's full. 
 

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This is the first I've heard of this in TOR and in any other mmo for that matter. Can we use the "I" word now? (innovation) :P
 
 
I like the sound of this, especially when you're that one class everyone is trying to CC all the time in focused fire.
 
Look forward to trying this out. Approximately how long do you think it takes to fill up? Meaning after how many times you've been CC'ed? Ten or more?

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I figured they'd have DRs, but I did't know it was a visable bar. That's pretty neat! Where'd you find this out?

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The resolve bar can be seen when you play it :D  they also released information on it a few months back.
 
Oh and BTW its 8 seconds of stun for 8 seconds of immunity.  thats if its totally maxed,  if you don't get fully stunned the countdown starts and you can be stunned again.  This also counts when you use your CC break,  it stops the count,  but the CC break gives you a short immunity, once that wears off you can be stunned again.

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As I've said, I've not heard of this in any mmo I've played to date, and that's quite a bit. Even if someone had done something it before, this seems like an improvement which would be innovative as well. It basically takes the 'trinket concept' that many games make you go grind for to put in a slot and offer five seconds of CC invulnerability and builds it into your character. Kind of like how games do things with stamina bars for strategic running... I like how it sounds.

I would define innovation as something that people actually want/need, but no one has invented it as such before. Given historically how much people complain about being CC'ed in PvP games without limit (DAOC, Warhammer, Rift), just wondering how many would view this as a combat innovation vs something aesthetic like a new way to get mail in the field or a new way to add people to your guild, which aren't that important overall.

While things like that are nice to have, they aren't integral to gameplay unlike a feature such as thing which could help lessen the FOTM club many classes get as a treatment.

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Originally posted by DarkPony

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Originally posted by Blutmaul
Fuck the Balance is all i say - it ruins any game!
Make mighty chars very hard to aquire, to grow, to develope, make them very vulnerable along the way and let them bear the greatest risks and even permadeath when playing and failing.
Make weak chars easy to get, having only low risk when failing and no permadeath.
The players will find out and sort out what they want and balance themself.
Equality -> Mediocrity!

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That game already exists and everyone is already playing it.
I think you catch my drift :)

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Very good read OP.

PvP is where i will spent most of my time, and while its imposible to balance to 100% iam glad to hear its balance equal.

I might get to level 10 tonight when beta goes live, no idea how long it will take :)

But after a week hard work i will test 1 class as much as i can.

OP did you do world pvp also ? can you share someof your expirience with that with us ?

Thanks in advance :)

I don't want to turn this into a WoW-bashing thread but PVP was wildly and ridiculously unbalanced in WoW, at least when I last played the game which was a few months after Cataclysm.  I played as a hunter and the class was ludcirously unbalanced and weak and plagued by game-killing bugs for years.  Blizzard  ignored all evidence the class was fail at PVP and continued to nerf the class and render it even more impotent while buffing the favored classes. Far from balance, it was a predators vs prey model of PVP where the OP classes would demolish the weaker classes and the only "balance" was in predator vs predator.  WoW should be the standard of what NOT to do it PVP.

Balance is a worthy and essential goal in PVP. When classes are truly balanced, it makes excellence at PVP determined primarily by skill rather than class or gear. Even so, less experienced players can still get kills and get lucky, because you don't have to be an ubermensch to overcome the class and gear differential. This is the way most FPS shooters are. You can waltz into the game with zero experience and so long as you have the general idea of pointing your gun in the right direction and pulling the trigger, you can get your first kill within minutes. But to excel at those games requires skill and skill alone.

The downside of FPS games is the simplicity of combat and the repetitiveness.  Even team matches have a free-for-all feel where you just running around killing everything in sight. They are great fun but get old after a while so the more complex mechanisms of MMO PVP have the potential to be more fun and lasting if done right.

For players like me who aren't into raiding, the storyline should help to sustain us through the levelling process, and if the PVP is good, will keep us going in the endgame. I truly hope this is the case.

Just say no to WoW PVP and you're already ahead of the game, Bioware.

Duby, I have to say while the thread and post on things in the game are accurate, I have to say your take on JC/SI is some what inexperienced. A Sith Inquisitor and Consular can pretty much one on one kill any class in the game without a problem (if they are geared a certain way and know what they are doing with the CC abilities).

While yeah, you do have stealth classes in the game that get initial suprise attacks, I will say they are at a serious disadvantage against these two classes (I'm talking healing spec not dps spec).

The only other power house in the game that you damn near need a group for in order to not be heading to the cloner yourself one on one is the Commando with the agent closing in second (if he/she gets the jump on you).