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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are people obsessed with difficulty and death penalty?

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163 posts found
  Valkaern

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

11/24/11 11:21:37 AM#21

So you're comparing real life self inflicted injuries with virtual risk and are confused with why some would prefer some sense of risk/danger while exploring worlds packed with demons, monsters and to the death battles?

 

Yeah, probably what we should expect.

 

If you can't comprehend why people would perfer some sense of risk to give weight to their actions rather than running around invulnerable to any consequences like all cheat codes ever  made are enabled, then I don't think anyone here can help - plus, I really don't think that's what you want.

You have no intention of considering the merits of simulated risk in MMOs, you either want to brag about whatever injury you and your clumsy friends inflicted on yourselves (See? Poor decision/lack of skill=negative consequence)  or simply expect your one sided view to advance your agenda.

 

I would say 'Why do YOU think people want it?' but after seeing what you've come up with so far and how base and poorly thought out it is, I don't think we'd get a reasonable response.

 

Pac-Man wouldn't have been much fun with unlimited lives, what the hell would be the point? A tedious repetitious exercise devoid of any connect between player and game.

 

I don't think anyone can help you comprehend why people would like some weight to their actions and some in game consequences for poor playing and poor decisions.  And as I said, I don't believe you're truly interested in understanding that side of the coin, you simply needed a venue in which to talk about falling off your mototcycle and using it as a poor comparison to VIRTUAL ACTIVITIES with potentially *VIRTUAL* risks for the *CHARACTERS* in the game.

 

Do you also only watch movies where nothing negative ever occurs? How's that working out for you? Sounds pretty shallow to me.

 

Thanks all the same but I'd prefer a broader spectrum of experience, with enough negative impact to quantify the good hopefully to the point of retaining a fun element.

 

Good luck.

  cheyane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2353

11/24/11 12:00:13 PM#22

At my age the warranty has long since expired. I think it is not even on the no money back guarantee but was left lying on someone's stoop ready for the trash when I got it. I cannot afford to jump up or sky dive or pop a hip joint. I will need permanent hip replacement if I tried that.

 

I get some of my kicks from doing a hard quest I take some personal pride when I get through a dungeon without dying or making sure no one in my group dies while I am a healer but it has to be a challenge not one where no one drops below 1/2 hp. That is how I also like to do BGs in WoW and when we win against a well matched team it makes me feel some elation at having survived and contributed. That makes playing worthwhile.

 

Similar to when I was Everquest and we help people get their corpses and through some really bad odds we manage it and the person is very happy too and some good friendships bloom. It is all about feeling good and happy about an outcome and also feeling very challenged.

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  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5975

11/24/11 12:02:43 PM#23
Originally posted by Enerzeal
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Enerzeal

A fine example of taking it way to far.

Being looted by a pker at death is a much greater rush than not being looted.

Being hit by a car because you didn't run fast enough has an even greater rush than the MMO high.

I would much rather enjoy the adrenaline from a good siege of property than the possibility of having a bike land on me or have my parachute fail to open. Just because we seek that risk / reward in our MMOs it doesn't mean we all wish to go and play russian roulette with a loaded gun, perhaps in game, with another player stood waiting to loot us if we died...

thankfully you only speaking for yourself.

 

why not self inflict the DP on your self when you fail?

I dont understand why you Pro-HDP dont do this in games without HDP

Again the worst suggestion that casual gamers love to throw out there. "Hey guys I died in dead mines so I need to drop my armor and wait 10 minutes for my 'self inpossed death penalty to wear off'". It  causes others to enjoy a good laugh at you. The main problem however is that it's like cutting your arm off then playing a few sets of tennis against a two armed opponent.

We aren't for disadvantages against everyone else. We want a world where the stakes are higher for everyone involved. I want the guy who has just run me down to be just as worried of dying as I am because it means a trip to the bank to stock up on potions and another throw away set of armor.

 

THATS THE SAME THING HDP DOES!!!

 

oh damn, I lost my gear cause I died... iam at a disavantage!!!! QQ

 

thats the same shit you discribed

  Dhaeman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/03
Posts: 529

11/24/11 12:20:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Valkaern

So you're comparing real life self inflicted injuries with virtual risk and are confused with why some would prefer some sense of risk/danger while exploring worlds packed with demons, monsters and to the death battles?

 

Yeah, probably what we should expect.

 

If you can't comprehend why people would perfer some sense of risk to give weight to their actions rather than running around invulnerable to any consequences like all cheat codes ever  made are enabled, then I don't think anyone here can help - plus, I really don't think that's what you want.

You have no intention of considering the merits of simulated risk in MMOs, you either want to brag about whatever injury you and your clumsy friends inflicted on yourselves (See? Poor decision/lack of skill=negative consequence)  or simply expect your one sided view to advance your agenda.

 

I would say 'Why do YOU think people want it?' but after seeing what you've come up with so far and how base and poorly thought out it is, I don't think we'd get a reasonable response.

 

Pac-Man wouldn't have been much fun with unlimited lives, what the hell would be the point? A tedious repetitious exercise devoid of any connect between player and game.

 

I don't think anyone can help you comprehend why people would like some weight to their actions and some in game consequences for poor playing and poor decisions.  And as I said, I don't believe you're truly interested in understanding that side of the coin, you simply needed a venue in which to talk about falling off your mototcycle and using it as a poor comparison to VIRTUAL ACTIVITIES with potentially *VIRTUAL* risks for the *CHARACTERS* in the game.

 

 

Pretty much was going to post this. Additionally, a challenge of some kind is very important to me in games whether it's an MMO or not. I don't think high death penalty alone is going to get me anywhere but something that combines it with a challenge such as in Dark Souls would be a likely purchase for me.

Also, I'm glad to see another '03 member with a relatively low post count.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16606

11/24/11 12:28:20 PM#25

Difficulty is very important since any game needs to have the right amount of challenge to be fun.

Playing a god that can't die while killing hundreds of mobs at the same time might be fun for the first 3 hours but it gets boring fast, just as a too hard game where you can't complete any dungeon makes you quit soon as well.

Death penalty is not however the same thing as difficulty, in many cases do death penalty just add more grind and grinding isn't hard, just time consuming.

Some games have had a good death penalty that makes the game more interesting, but most games just add a boring XP loss that forces you to grind some more trashmobs.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2038

11/24/11 12:50:42 PM#26

So wait, what do video games have to do with X-games style bike riding?

There are people who want to play video games.  Of these people, some want an extreme challenge, some want a relaxing leisure activity.  

There are people who want to ride mountain bikes.  Of these people, some want an extreme challeng, some want a relaxing joyride through a scenic environment.  

I don't comprehend the premise here.  Video games should exclusively be easy, and anyone who wants a challenge should not play video games but go do something else that they may not even be interested in instead?  Could that make any less sense?

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16606

11/24/11 12:54:08 PM#27
Originally posted by Homitu

So wait, what do video games have to do with X-games style bike riding?

There are people who want to play video games.  Of these people, some want an extreme challenge, some want a relaxing leisure activity.  

There are people who want to ride mountain bikes.  Of these people, some want an extreme challeng, some want a relaxing joyride through a scenic environment.  

I don't comprehend the premise here.  Video games should exclusively be easy, and anyone who wants a challenge should not play video games but go do something else that they may not even be interested in instead?  Could that make any less sense?

It must make sense to all large studios since that is where all games have come nowadays.

Just 10 years ago there were still plenty of hard games around, now all, both MMOs and single player games have become easy.

But as I said, death penaly is not the same thing as difficulty.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18985

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/24/11 1:01:44 PM#28

OP answered his own question, just as real life has physical consequences which encourage improvement and a striving for excellence (in order to avoid pain and win personal glory), so to with game worlds, we want challenge and reward, and are willing to suffer penalties for failure.

And as far as inflicting penalties on ourselves, that's as much nonsense as the OP deciding to crash his bike on purpose in order to make sure he does better the next time.  No one purposely inflicts harm upon themselves, in game or otherwise.

Also on this same note, the rules of the game must be the same for everyone, if I'm paying a penalty for the consequences of my actions, so should everyone pay a similar penalty for theirs.  It's just how games are designed, with the rules more or less the same for all players.

Now the issue is, everyone has a different idea of what an appropriate amount of penalty should be.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

11/24/11 1:05:09 PM#29

Almost four hours later, I'm still scratching my chin each time I read the OP's post.  I'm not sure how they made the connection they did there.  The closest I can come, is that they are playing games to get away from risks - penalties - and difficulties - because there are enough of those in life.

I can get that.  That's why I play games like Bejeweled while waiting on something to download/upload/update/etc.  Just a simple little game to play to pass the time which can be fun.

I don't want my MMORPG to have the substance of Bejeweled though.  I want more.  I'm playing a MMORPG because I want to play in a virtual world.  Yep, it may be a form of escapism - wanting to get away from this world - but that does not mean that I want to play Bejeweled.

Which is kind of funny, because when you get right down to it - most of those silly little games...lol, they actually have what is missing from MMORPGs.

Yep, they have that increasing difficulty and they have the death penalty.  Lol, so I guess I want my MMORPGs to be more like some of those silly little games...lol.

Okay though, as an aside - I want to address death penalty (seems like this has been discussed to death over the years though).

Death Penalty is not Black & White.  It is not a case of either wanting it to be completely meaningless or it being a case that your toon is deleted.  There is a Hell of a lot of space between those two.  Many folks simply want it to mean something - so that it is not like you are playing one of those silly games with a hack that gives you unlimited lives.

Some form of death penalty, although no guarantee, might stop people from doing some of the stupid things they do in games if they stopped to think about it first...

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6127

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

11/24/11 1:06:38 PM#30

I do like difficulity in my gaming but up to a point.   Just as I can't stand facerolling easy mobs I also can't stand games where you have to sit and rest for 3 min's after you killed a trash mob  ~wash~repeat = lame

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

11/24/11 1:07:33 PM#31

I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
11/24/11 1:12:17 PM#32

Not all in a game should be hard. The delicate balance is a relative ease learning game-play while leaving room to "grow", learning nuances, like chess for example.

 

That said, I like to succeed in things not particularly attainable by every 13-year-old. Otherwise I get bored very quickly. If "doing well" in a game is a simple task of "going through motions", you can keep your bragging rights.

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7146

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

11/24/11 1:18:52 PM#33
Originally posted by Quirhid

I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.

 

You miss the point... it's not to do either.

DP isn't there to make the game more difficult, or increase the challenge. It is there to add a conequence to failure, to increase the risk, to play for higher stakes.

Sure, it provides lows, but lows are essential to emphasis highs... otherwise you have a even line of meh virtual knitting as you go through the motions safe in the knowledge it simply dosen't matter if you screw up or fail to improve.

Can I ask? Have you actually played a game with a real DP? I don't say this to knock you, just to understand your basis of opinion.

  ShadowMajere

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/09
Posts: 20

11/24/11 1:24:41 PM#34
Originally posted by Vlad_Tepes

You do understand that not everyone has the physical tools required to do the things you mention correct? And oddly enough, in your attempt at sarcasm, you yourself come off as somewhat elitist. And how in the end does it effect you either way? To each his own. Harcore, Carebear, whatever makes the gamer happy in the end is all that matters. Do I want my toon wiped each time I die? No. Do I want to be bored to tears playing an MMO any 6 year old can play to end game in 2 months? No.

And trust me, I understand risk/reward. I get the rush thing. I do. But how one goes about getting it matters not to me. I spent 20 years in Army Special Ops, and have paid for it. My body is wrecked, my soul is darker, and my mind is tired. I have seen far to much, done far to much. Now I sit at my PC, with bits of metal in my spine that can't be removed, just trying to have some fun. So, your go ride or do something real instead of getting your rush in a game idea holds no water for me, and plenty of people like me. Not everyone is an athlete. Not everyone can do the things you do, or I have done. For many different reasons. That doesn't mean some people don't want to push themselves, in whatever way they can. Challenge is, challenge. Regardless of where we find it. And not all of us want our hands held in a game to the point where there is none. 

Sorry for the rant, but the if you want real challenge hit yourself or do something in the real world doesn't and can't apply to everyone. Such as myself. The body is ruined. I do my best to simply live through the discomfort, and find fun and challenge where I still can. 

Before I start my Tirade, All I goto say straight off the bat... if its true, Thank you for the Service to this country and help Keeping it safe. That is what a True man, an Elitist does. Not playing on a bike or an mmo.

 

I play Eve-Online for exactly the same reason. Risk, I go red/black name (back in the day before the game took a shit) In Conquer online, why to piss people off and challenge them to come at me, If I failed they had a chance to get my gear, if I won.. Well Sorry I just stole your XP :P. NONE of my friends who I have brought to eve mostly trying to get them off the WoW Train have stayed with eve. They wandered into low sec and one even wandered into 0.0 lol. ALL died and lost there shit. They were heated at the game and quit it right on that spot. Calling the Game B.S. It's no fair that a game has that much risk to it. "Real games, Real MMO's shouldn't make you loose your stuff. Look how awesome wow is. If I die I respawn and go back to fighting the dude that nuked me" I was like, hey I do the same thing in Eve, and if I can't do it alone.. Well either I choose to wait till I skill up better ... OR.... I grab a few Corp mates and chase him all over new eden :P Alot of players who try eve for a decent amount of time either wind up as a miner, a mission runner, or a market player. But they are also the same group that complains there is no challenge to the game, just the same old things to run. A select few who want something more, a challenge, or eves version of a rush, become Pirates, start a corp and Dec others, or go into 0.0 join a corp and get involved in territorial wars, or at least they go into low-sec and try to secure a moon and build a Pos there.

 

If there is no challenge to a game after a while the game starts to get stale. If you want a game where you feel you need your hand held, you want as little risk as possible, you want to make sure somebody doesn't piss in your cheerios There is Always Maple Story for you. For those of us that want a challenge, that want to feel like we accomplished something, for those of us that want to go Damn, I'm glad I stocked up on extra pots and even gladder that I didn't have anyone run up on the Boss that appears every 30 mins, and thank God that asshole did not make me have to PK his ass and go hide and hope to hell no one Ganks me and takes my shit. We challenge makers to add a difficulty factor to the game, wether it be Death penalties, Gear risk, or grinding for resurection scrolls. Each to his own, But were not Elitists, Well some of us are when in the right element. But were Gamers, not casual Ones, But true ones, There is no point of playing a game unless there is risk involved. Remember back in the Days when Consoles gave you 3 lives or you were Screwed (not counting Contra and its Konami code :P ) even Tetris has risks if you don't strategize that game, even the slightest mistake is making you start all the way from the beginning.

 

 

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2324

11/24/11 2:03:50 PM#35
Originally posted by vesavius
Originally posted by Quirhid

I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.

 

You miss the point... it's not to do either.

DP isn't there to make the game more difficult, or increase the challenge. It is there to add a conequence to failure, to increase the risk, to play for higher stakes.

Sure, it provides lows, but lows are essential to emphasis highs... otherwise you have a even line of meh virtual knitting as you go through the motions safe in the knowledge it simply dosen't matter if you screw up or fail to improve.

Can I ask? Have you actually played a game with a real DP? I don't say this to knock you, just to understand your basis of opinion.

You are basicly correct.  Death penalties are for people who do not have the willpower to challenge themselves and need an outside force to make the decision for them.  They need the gambling aspect to compensate for the fact that they do not get a rush from challenging themselves.    In turn they will never understand the gamer who attempts a difficult task simply to see if he/she can beat it.  They need fear to motivate them since they lack the ability to be motivated by the challenge alon.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

11/24/11 2:08:15 PM#36
Originally posted by Torik

You are basicly correct.  Death penalties are for people who do not have the willpower to challenge themselves and need an outside force to make the decision for them.  They need the gambling aspect to compensate for the fact that they do not get a rush from challenging themselves.    In turn they will never understand the gamer who attempts a difficult task simply to see if he/she can beat it.  They need fear to motivate them since they lack the ability to be motivated by the challenge alon.

That's basically it, then they need to impose their playstyle on others in order to validate their position.  If everyone isn't forced to do it, they can't feel good about doing it themselves.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10552

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/24/11 2:12:28 PM#37

The only thing I would take issue with on death penalties is the idea that you just add a harsher death penalty to any game and it would improve the game.

If you add an XP penalty to WoW, the game will improve. If you add player looting in WoW, the game will improve. Taken to an extreme, a harsh death penalty in Hello Kitty Adventure Island would somehow make the game 'better'.

I'm all for applying game mechanics to games that make sense, and in some games, a harsh death penalty makes sense and even makes the game 'better'. It's just not a universally applicable game mechanic.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1239

11/24/11 2:33:25 PM#38

Vlad Tepes you a fan of Bones and Cat too ?

 

Eeek ! On topic games that are not hard make me get bored very  easily. Need a challenge to get them red blood cells moving.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10552

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/24/11 2:42:05 PM#39


Originally posted by kitarad
Vlad Tepes you a fan of Bones and Cat too ?
 
Eeek ! On topic games that are not hard make me get bored very  easily. Need a challenge to get them red blood cells moving.



What does the challenge of not dying have to do with the penalty that occurs after you've died? The penalty doesn't make it any harder to stay alive and doesn't make it any harder to complete whatever content you're playing through.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  kitarad

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1239

11/24/11 2:47:07 PM#40

Yes but the penalty that is undesirable makes the chance of dying worse. It is psychological thing like sound that the dentist drill makes that makes your teeth ache even before it is your turn.

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