Mostly waiting to see how the dynamic events end up, looks awesome on paper. The game also looks good, I like the art style and overall graphics, I hope to see similar weather effects like in Skyrim, the chilling snow storms :) Combat seems fun, I'm not a fan of every wizard and full plate warrior dodge rolling in every direction like some b-grade hollywood action movie stars, but other than that it looks really nice.

I dont agree with many of Anets design choises or "improvements" (mandatory dodge on every class, teleporting everywhere, no mounts, and a handful of others that may end up positive or negative but needs testing first like no trinity, no friendly targeted spells, smells a bit like console porting to make it simple enough for gamepad play) but overall the game seems to be shaping up to be simply awesome, decorated with win and spiced up with some tears of joy, and no doubt will be in the top 5 of mmorpgs when it's out.

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Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Raiding is the worst possible endgame content... FOR YOU.  That's what so many people seem to overlook.  As it turns out, a lot of people really enjoy raiding (I'm not one of them).  Just like there's a lot of people who enjoy being healers and tanks. 
You know SHIT about GW2's endgame, all you have is marketing hype and promises, but you're just sucking it up and spewing it forth as gospel.  It's sad, really.

---

Then you know less than shit about GW2's endgame...because at least I'm informed on the information they've released and discussed at great length. You are either totally ignorant, or just intentionally being obtuse to start arguments. My money's on the latter.

No game is for everyone. GW2 will offer several options for people who enjoy raiding, but if it happens to be a person who likes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in endgame other than tiered gear grinding in 24-man instances...this isn't the game for them, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of clones of the formula out there for people who want that.

All I was pointing out was that to say there will be NO ENDGAME simply because there is no raiding is an extremely (should I say intentionally) narrow point of view.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by Biggus99

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Supersoups

There is instanced raiding in GW2 the only difference is that you do not raid for gears with stats.

If you want to call instanced raiding with 4 others a raid then by all means do so, but in the normal themepark defenition of the term there is NO INSTANCED RAIDING.

 

You know the type that.....

1. with 24 others

2. set a schedule to play a game.

3. raid lockouts prohibit the time you can actually play

4. require preperation and setup

 

 

My perfect idea of raiding is in the GW2 sense of the word, the kind that happens impromptu and could happen at any time of the day and requires no organized "elitest" personality who lives his life in his mothers basement, or who is an OWS no job having drag on society.  I look forward to GW2's style of raiding and dungeon crawling with close friends.

So, lack of endgame content.  Got it.  Thanks for the heads up.

So your idea of endgame content are instanced raids, got it. Thanks for the heads up.

jazzy, you forgot, "we dont care" ;)

Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

---

Originally posted by cali59

 

2) No Holy Trinity:  People each have their own definition of what this means, so it's often hard to discuss it.  I would define it as there is a "trinity" of damage, tank and healing, that the "Holy Trinity" is when each person does one thing and one thing only and maximizes it with no hybridizing.

 

---

 

I think it's important to make a distinction here, there is a trinity, it's not the holy trinity of tank, heal and damage, it's a trinity of control, heal and damage, Everyone will be expected to utilise control skills, whether that's a necro with fear or an engineer with a sticky bomb, tanking can and will happen but it won't be the only means of control. Looking at the necro with its life stealing skills and high life bar, it should be able to do some tanking but likely not play that role throughout a difficult encounter, other classes will need to provide relief by either taking up a tanking type role or by using control skills to knockback, fear or stun the mob, control will be the key, not just tanking.

 Thanks for the clarification.  I was deliberately using WoW terminology.  I truly believe that you can have a game like that which doesn't have Holy Trinity.  Like you might want a warrior to tank because they're the best, but you could have a rogue tanking but then your shaman has to help your cleric with a little offhealing.  Once you get to harder content and power creep with gear sets in, roles become much more specialized and people get forced into one role and one role only.

Based on the firsthand experiences of this guy, who actually completed an explorable mode dungeon (3+ hour wipefest) I'd say the system is even more flexible than you describe.  It's not necessarily that everyone needs to provide control, it's that what happens will entirely depend on the encounter. 

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805904&postcount=36

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805995&postcount=42

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Originally posted by cali59

---

Originally posted by EvilGeek
 

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Originally posted by cali59
 
2) No Holy Trinity:  People each have their own definition of what this means, so it's often hard to discuss it.  I would define it as there is a "trinity" of damage, tank and healing, that the "Holy Trinity" is when each person does one thing and one thing only and maximizes it with no hybridizing.
 

---

 
I think it's important to make a distinction here, there is a trinity, it's not the holy trinity of tank, heal and damage, it's a trinity of control, heal and damage, Everyone will be expected to utilise control skills, whether that's a necro with fear or an engineer with a sticky bomb, tanking can and will happen but it won't be the only means of control. Looking at the necro with its life stealing skills and high life bar, it should be able to do some tanking but likely not play that role throughout a difficult encounter, other classes will need to provide relief by either taking up a tanking type role or by using control skills to knockback, fear or stun the mob, control will be the key, not just tanking.

---

 Thanks for the clarification.  I was deliberately using WoW terminology.  I truly believe that you can have a game like that which doesn't have Holy Trinity.  Like you might want a warrior to tank because they're the best, but you could have a rogue tanking but then your shaman has to help your cleric with a little offhealing.  Once you get to harder content and power creep with gear sets in, roles become much more specialized and people get forced into one role and one role only.
Based on the firsthand experiences of this guy, who actually completed an explorable mode dungeon (3+ hour wipefest) I'd say the system is even more flexible than you describe.  It's not necessarily that everyone needs to provide control, it's that what happens will entirely depend on the encounter. 
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805904&postcount=36
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805995&postcount=42
 

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Great links, really showed how the old trinity is defunct and detrimental to play in GW2.

I slipped in to the wow terminology myself, I didn't change heal for support in my example.

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Originally posted by czekoskwigel

How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all...   Sorry, but that's just lame. 

---

Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.

The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.

It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.

Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.

When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.

Originally posted by Fozzik

 

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

 

How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all...   Sorry, but that's just lame. 

---

 

Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.

The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.

It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.

Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.

When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.

Who are you fighting in WvWvW?  And for what ultimate aim?

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.

Who are you fighting in WvWvW?  And for what ultimate aim?

The latter part is an interesting question.  What's the ultimate aim of fighting anybody or anything in =any= MMORPG?  With very few exceptions, there's little to no permanence for your actions.

Even in say... a sandbox with full loot, at best you're inconveniencing somebody most of the time.

I'm not sure 'annoying somebody else' works well as an ultimate aim.

For what it's worth, in WvWvW you're fighting against =evil creepy mirror world enemies=, people from a false reality, who must be destroyed, to earn the favor of the gods for the =real= people, from your own (the only true) universe.

What could possibly be more important than the favor of the gods?

Or more creepily threatening than people who APPEAR to be real, but are just crazy twisted unreal people?

It's like invasion of the Body Snatchers, or anything else with dopplegangers!  It's one of the deepest seated fears of humanity, and therefore by extension, most sentient beings as portrayed by humans.

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

---

Originally posted by Fozzik
 

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel
 
How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all...   Sorry, but that's just lame. 

---

 
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.

The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.

It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.

Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.

When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.

---

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW?  And for what ultimate aim?

---

You are fighting players from other servers. The ultimate aim is to win.... to gain prestige for your server, improve your server's record / ranking vs. all others, and to gain benefits for PvE and probably PvP as well.

See, the fundamental difference here is that this PvP will be about the communities of REAL PLAYERS that form on each server, not some NPC faction that you fight for simply because of the race you chose to play. It will be about server pride and being part of something much bigger than a guild. It's a whole different idea than the lore-based faction conflicts where players are delineated through the lore. The idea is to make the PvE game more social, since players won't be cut off from half the races and half the zones just because of their faction choice (can play with friends regardless of their choices), while also making PvP much more of a community-building experience.

If your complaint is that they didn't make some races "Bad" and some races "good", just be aware that the lore of all the races is quite a bit more complex than that...there are conflicts between the races, but the PvE story involves them all grudgingly working together and resolving their differences in order to defeat a common, immensely powerful foe. The PvP game is more about the game of it, rather than the story.

Originally posted by Fozzik

 

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

---

Originally posted by Fozzik
 

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel
 
How the hell is this giant battleground "meaningful"?
It pulls you out of the normal game world, it has no effect on the real game world, you're fighting in some magical wonderland against alternate versions of your own people for no reason at all...   Sorry, but that's just lame. 

---

 
Although I know you just post these things in order to start arguments, there's at least some chance that others might benefit from some accurate info, so I'll try to help.

The mists don't "pull you out" of anything. You choose to go take part in the WvWvW content any time you want, it's continuous, and you can go back and forth any time you want.

It does actually have effects on the "real" game world (I'm guessing you mean the PvE game world when you say "real"...since I'm not sure why one zone is more "real" than another in your mind). Servers will receive buffs and benefits from winning the two-week matches in WvWvW...that's a direct effect on the PvE game world.

Fighting in some magical wonderland? It's just some zones which are a different part of the world, or a different part of the history of the world.

When you say fighting against "alternate versions" of your own people...are you perhaps thinking about the competitive PvP where all players are automatically scaled to max with full armor, weapons, and skills to create a level playing field? In WvWvW, you bring your character, you have your own armor, weapons, and skills. It's not an alternate version of your character at all.

---

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.
Who are you fighting in WvWvW?  And for what ultimate aim?

---

 

You are fighting players from other servers. The ultimate aim is to win.... to gain prestige for your server, improve your server's record / ranking vs. all others, and to gain benefits for PvE and probably PvP as well.

See, the fundamental difference here is that this PvP will be about the communities of REAL PLAYERS that form on each server, not some NPC faction that you fight for simply because of the race you chose to play. It will be about server pride and being part of something much bigger than a guild. It's a whole different idea than the lore-based faction conflicts where players are delineated through the lore. The idea is to make the PvE game more social, since players won't be cut off from half the races and half the zones just because of their faction choice (can play with friends regardless of their choices), while also making PvP much more of a community-building experience.

If your complaint is that they didn't make some races "Bad" and some races "good", just be aware that the lore of all the races is quite a bit more complex than that...there are conflicts between the races, but the PvE story involves them all grudgingly working together and resolving their differences in order to defeat a common, immensely powerful foe. The PvP game is more about the game of it, rather than the story.

This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".

It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it.  I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.

I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.

I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off.  If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't.  For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.

It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, so you could clarify for me.

Who are you fighting in WvWvW?  And for what ultimate aim?

 Part of the design philosophy of GW2 is to let players do whatever they want to do.  You don't have to raid to get the best gear.  You don't have to do dungeons.  You don't have to PVP, you actually don't even have to PVE.  You don't have to craft, you don't have to do your personal story.  You don't have to follow a leveling path or even level in your own race's zones.  In dynamic events you'll probably even be able to some degree not even have to fight in order to get rewarded (rezzing people and completing secondary objectives count as contributing)

So on the most basic level I have to say the aim of World PVP is to have fun.  If you don't find it fun, do something else.

The PVE world of GW2 is factionless and attempting to be entirely cooperative.  They also wanted to have 3 faction PVP and that's a pretty incompatible goal.  Their justification, (which Meowhead actually managed to make sound not terrible) is that it takes place in an alternate reality.  It's kind of painted into a corner, probably necessarily so since it's server vs server, but imho thankfully gameplay came first over lore.

I'm not saying their system isn't without drawbacks or sacrifices, but I think it's a very interesting way to do things.  Your server has a win loss record to fight over, unlike other games where you just requeue for the battleground and W/L only affects how many tokens you got.  Making it server vs server doesn't divide your PVE playerbase.  It also makes it so it's not always the same thing with larger faction A vs B+C.  Server matchups are changed after each two weeks so it not only puts you up against equally matched servers, but you also don't know whether you're the big or little server.

Who am I kidding.  It's PVP.  It's about teabagging someone.

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".
It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it.  I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.
I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.
I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off.  If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't.  For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.
It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.

---

So, you're issue is that the PvP doesn't have a solid reasoning within the lore...you feel a need for the PvE story and world to provide you with a justification for fighting other players in PvP. That makes sense, and it's certainly typical of older, "traditional" PvE MMORPGs to have PvP servers to allow for just what you're talking about. Guild Wars 2 is certainly going to be different in a lot of ways.

Honestly, how many PvP players are running around role-playing and fighting other players strictly to advance and act out the lore? The truth is the lore splitting players up into factions is usually pretty superficial and arbitrary...once the fighting starts, it's really about the game's mechanics, balance, and how fun it is to play. I think the trade-off of losing a bit of virtual-world-realism is worth the great benefits that are gained by separating PvP and PvE rulesets, and allowing players to compete with the best, most balanced game play possible.

I know that GW2 does provide a lore rationale for the PvP in the mists. The fact that players aren't split up into factions doesn't mean there's no story at all. From the little we've learned, it has to do with players re-living famous battles from the history of Tyria.

I can agree that I like these virtual worlds to be internally consistent. In this particular case (the rationale behind PvP), It seems that ArenaNet chose to go more for what was best in terms of game design. Personally, I don't mind. GW2's PvE world is going to be dramatically more alive, more cohesive, and more internally consistent and realistic than any virtual world we've seen in a long time. I think PvE is really the place to explore a story and role-play.

Are there players out there who strictly want to role-play the lore in a world with completely open PvP? Certainly...but it's a small minority. GW2 isn't going to serve those folks, as far as I know. For everyone else, I think the decision to separate the rulesets the way they are is the best of all worlds.

1) Anet is doing things different from the norm. This could be bad to some who think rehashing is ok and have the "if it aint broke" mentality. For me it will be a learning curve but I look forward to the changes.

2) I won't forced to play the game a certain way. I can level wherever I want and however I want. No quest hubs and linear paths.

3) Scaling means I can play with who I want, when I want, wihtout the need for reserving a character.

4) I can participate in others stories and they can do the same in mine. this feeds into examples 2 and 3.

5) The PvP looks fun to me. I have spent a majority of my PvP in games that are all about the gear > skill. Nice to see that gear won't dictate who wins in a fight.

6) If the community is anything like the small community that frequents the GW2 section here, I will be happy. There have been some pretty good discussions and sharing of ideas and interpretations. 

7) It's B2P. Whether this ends up working out or not, it is something different that could have some affect on the genre, Not saying it will, but if Anet pulls off a full MMO on the B2P model and proves that P2P are pretty much blowing smoke up the consumers asses, it is going to be interesting to see what happens.

8) DE's are going to be the main focus of exp gain rather than quest or mob grinding. Call it a different kind of grind or a disguised quest system if you want, but it is different. DE's allow for choice see example 2. 

All for the combat physics and the combat system in general, dodge, block, be able to actually fight for once :) I find each one of the races interesting as well as the background stories driving the character.

Originally posted by Fozzik

 

---

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

 

This is why I skoff at it being referred to as "meaningfull".
It just doesn't work for me... If this were racial combat, 3 faction, I'd be all over it.  I've read the first GW2 novel, I get the idea of the races working together, but for me I just can't swallow the idea that EVERYONE would fall in line, that there wouldn't be open combat and skirmeshes amongst the groups.
I like the way TSW is handling it... in public they have a kind of truce, they recognize that there's a common enemy out there... they can't fight in the streets because it would be attention to them... but in private, they battle it out to the death.
I guess I would just prefer a "real" enemy... the fighting against other people from an alternative universe just feels off.  If this were an MMO based on "Fringe" it would make sense, but it isn't.  For me this ends up kinda like space flight in SWTOR... not what it could be, and nothing more than a mini-game.
It's not enough to keep my from playing the game, it's just something I wish they'd have handled better.

---

 

So, you're issue is that the PvP doesn't have a solid reasoning within the lore...you feel a need for the PvE story and world to provide you with a justification for fighting other players in PvP. That makes sense, and it's certainly typical of older, "traditional" PvE MMORPGs to have PvP servers to allow for just what you're talking about. Guild Wars 2 is certainly going to be different in a lot of ways.

Honestly, how many PvP players are running around role-playing and fighting other players strictly to advance and act out the lore? The truth is the lore splitting players up into factions is usually pretty superficial and arbitrary...once the fighting starts, it's really about the game's mechanics, balance, and how fun it is to play. I think the trade-off of losing a bit of virtual-world-realism is worth the great benefits that are gained by separating PvP and PvE rulesets, and allowing players to compete with the best, most balanced game play possible.

I know that GW2 does provide a lore rationale for the PvP in the mists. The fact that players aren't split up into factions doesn't mean there's no story at all. From the little we've learned, it has to do with players re-living famous battles from the history of Tyria.

I can agree that I like these virtual worlds to be internally consistent. In this particular case (the rationale behind PvP), It seems that ArenaNet chose to go more for what was best in terms of game design. Personally, I don't mind. GW2's PvE world is going to be dramatically more alive, more cohesive, and more internally consistent and realistic than any virtual world we've seen in a long time. I think PvE is really the place to explore a story and role-play.

Are there players out there who strictly want to role-play the lore in a world with completely open PvP? Certainly...but it's a small minority. GW2 isn't going to serve those folks, as far as I know. For everyone else, I think the decision to separate the rulesets the way they are is the best of all worlds.

Don't bother with him, his opinion is his opinion, how ever I do feel that it might be a bit trollish, because in other games when its server v Server, its exactly what it sounds like Server v Server, every one on one server no matter the race andgainst another server with everyone and all races.

I actually agree with the Czech guy in one respect. I do wish there was a better lore reason for the WWW part of the game. I don't mind faction warfare and I actually think they could have setup this game with that in mind but it wasn't the direction ArenaNet wanted to go. I respect their design decision but I do think the lore aspect of the pvp could be a bit tighter. 

With that said, I'm absolutely positive that the actual gameplay of the WWW will be awesome. It's probably what I'm looking forward to most in the game.

Anyone care to inform how Guild Wars 2's end-game will be like? I haven't read the entire thread, but one post covering it all would be nice.

Well for me its only 1 reason. Its called "ArenaNet".  

#1 reason for my hype about GW2

It can't be that much longer b4 it's released.

(should only be another year or two by now......yay)

Everything about this game has my expectations sky high.

One thing that stands out for me is the Personnal Story and not being forced into a certain role. :)