Over the last few days reading the SW:TOR boards I've started to have a real Deja Vu moment it is as if I'm reading the Warhammer boards circa '08, Star Trek Online circa '10, Aion boards circa '09, Rift boards circa '11 all after the NDA was lifted and people could freely talk about what they've experienced in the beta. The problem I'm having is that if anyone actually makes a critique of the game whether they feel it is objective or subjective it is shouted down quicker than you can say "shouted down" even if they also mention many positives as well. People who have thees concerns are being called haters, accused of having an agenda, their previous posts are rifled through to attack their character or just plainly dismissed as being "burned out vets with an axe to grind", its like the group euphoria caused buy "new toy" syndrome causes people to stick there fingers in their ears and sing to themselves "this must be the one OH! please let this new MMO be the one, please please please please".

What is wrong with having concerns about certain aspects of games and maybe having the forethought to see that these negative concerns might actually escalate after the new shiny feeling has worn off, because in my experience these things have actually happened like players mentioning no replayabilty, annoyingly repetitive content, lack of any real depth, soulless worlds etc.. that later on come to really affect the enjoyment of the MMO and the game suffers, the early defenders of the game disappear from the boards and everyone is back to sqaure one with no long term MMO to play. This for me is exactly why many MMO's fail to hold onto a significant amount of players to be truly called a hit and ultimtely fade into obscurity, the real critique is not heard until it is too late.

I personally like to read up on a game when the beta phase is coming to an end and the NDA has lifted so thats why after 3 years since the announcement I'm just now reading the SW:TOR boards regularly. And what I want is both the good and the bad but with all the noise coming from one section of the community it is difficult to hear both sides clearly. This makes me think that critque is truly dead and you will only get an extreme version of one side of the argument as to whether a newly coming MMO is worth investing in. I'm in this weekends beta so I can see for myself with regards to SW:TOR but that might not always be the case with upcoming MMO's so I'd really like the players who do follow the games development closely to open up to critique only that way will the games companies produce better games.

well i think in the case of star wars the complaints are it has too much voice acting and too many instances.  both are shouted down because one is a feature and the other is wrong.

they said from the beginning the entire game would be voice over.  the entire game.  so those complaining about it is silly, its like complaining that a orange is orange. 

the other one is wrong, there is very little instancing in this game, you class story line and flashpoints is pretty much it.  everything else is open to the entire world. 

i dont someone giving good or bad reviews but to say a game sucks because it has an intended feature and the person doesnt like that feature, that is stupid.  just dont play the game if you dont like cutscenes and voiceovers, no reason to bash the game because it has a feature that was talked about since day one.

Tend to agree, it's really hard to make a critique concerning a game when there's a few thousand people who will instantly shout you down. I think it's the duty of the forum moderators to make sure people stay on topic and the noise gets filtered out and there's a clear signal between developers and players without too much bias on one or the other side.

yea, Skyrim boards all over the internet are the same right now. i certainly am enjoying it, but i hate to see people attacke for their complaints, when damn near ALL of them are valid and factual probelms.

It happens with every game.   Those of us that do the beta's then report what we find, the good and the bad, are often targeted as haters and trolls.   People often accuse me of hating themepark games - I don't.  I actually play WoW.  Biggest themepark game on the market - imagine that.  People accuse me of only liking sandbox games when that is not true at all.  If the themepark game is well made, I'll say as much, but do not think I will not give the good and bad - because that is not how I do things.   I write about WoW in my blog and do not think for one minute I cut that game, or the game designers that made it any slack.  If I feel they borked something up I say they did.   Same goes if I think they did something good, I'll say they did something good.  

Too, many people on the forums hate it when their precious "new golden game of greatness" is shown to have short comings and flaws.   Sorry folks, these games do have them, and if some of us consider them flawed or a short coming we will most likely say as much.   These most  recently released games for the most part and not better than WoW - most are infact reskinned versions of it seems.    I beta'd SW:ToR and from "my experiences" in the game and the game I played I found it boring, repetatvie, and unimaginative because I was doing things in game I had done in all the previous themepark games and in some cases the older games did it better.   If VO is considered an innovation - you can keep it.   That will get old after the 2nd and third play through. 

Anyway...I have been here and done this...SW:ToR is nothing new, it is what it is, just like Aion, Warhammer, Rift - gamers will flock to it at first then the slow migration to other games and or their previous game will begin.    Oh and don't bother telling me it won't happen with SW:ToR - it will...history is on my side. 

Originally posted by hardicon

well i think in the case of star wars the complaints are it has too much voice acting and too many instances.  both are shouted down because one is a feature and the other is wrong.

 

they said from the beginning the entire game would be voice over.  the entire game.  so those complaining about it is silly, its like complaining that a orange is orange. 

 

the other one is wrong, there is very little instancing in this game, you class story line and flashpoints is pretty much it.  everything else is open to the entire world. 

 

i dont someone giving good or bad reviews but to say a game sucks because it has an intended feature and the person doesnt like that feature, that is stupid.  just dont play the game if you dont like cutscenes and voiceovers, no reason to bash the game because it has a feature that was talked about since day one.

I think you missunderstand the concerns with regards to voiceovers its not that Bioware have said the game is fully voiced its that like with Rift and the fact that the Rifts become incredibly repetitive and annoying after a while so will the VO and you cannot get away from it unless you skip it and doesn't that make the expense and  time rather costly for being used once or maybe twice? they've basically gone overboard with one feature like the constant rifts and invasions and that inturn makes it redundant if everyone starts doing that just like players started ignoring rifts and invasions in Rift. So for me its a genuine concern and people having those concerns should be listened to because in the case of Rift they were shouted down but later many started to feel exactly the same.

Originally posted by Teala

It happens with every game.   Those of us that do the beta's then report what we find, the good and the bad, are often targeted as haters and trolls.   People often accuse me of hating themepark games - I don't.  I actually play WoW.  Biggest themepark game on the market - imagine that.  People accuse me of only liking sandbox games when that is not true at all.  If the themepark game is well made, I'll say as much, but do not think I will not give the good and bad - because that is not how I do things.   I write about WoW in my blog and do not think for one minute I cut that game, or the game designers that made it any slack.  If I feel they borked something up I say they did.   Same goes if I think they did something good, I'll say they did something good.  

Too, many people on the forums hate it when their precious "new golden game of greatness" is shown to have short comings and flaws.   Sorry folks, these games do have them, and if some of us consider them flawed or a short coming we will most likely say as much.   These most  recently released games for the most part and not better than WoW - most are infact reskinned versions of it seems.    I beta'd SW:ToR and from "my experiences" in the game and the game I played I found it boring, repetatvie, and unimaginative because I was doing things in game I had done in all the previous themepark games and in some cases the older games did it better.   If VO is considered an innovation - you can keep it.   That will get old after the 2nd and third play through. 

Anyway...I have been here and done this...SW:ToR is nothing new, it is what it is, just like Aion, Warhammer, Rift - gamers will flock to it at first then the slow migration to other games and or their previous game will begin.    Oh and don't bother telling me it won't happen with SW:ToR - it will...history is on my side. 

I understand exactly what you are saying Teala, in my other hobbies being critical is seen a positive not a negative and people who I enjoy my hobbies with seem to respect that not all is unicorns and rainbows, but that doesn't detract from the worth of anything I criticise because if you do it right you always weigh the pro's and con's but to totally ignore all cons and just stick your fingers in your ears seems to be very prevalent in the MMO world in regards to players and new shiny games.

This is why I value my critics.

Maybe not so much with WoW critics, because there is mass WoW bias, but even they make a few points I agree with.

THe critics should get a sub forum. IMO the critics are best when it comes to reviewing. But so are the fans. doesnt mean a Critic cant be a fan. I was a critic of Rift, yet thats the game that ended the WoW comeback for me, which is why I play it. doesnt mean its perfect, and needs no improvements.

Thats why I feel the need to criticize the game. no need for praising the game. My Sub money does that part. I want the game improved.

I really don't feel that the majority of gamers don't even bother with reviews and go with more word of mouth or legacy than anything else.

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Originally posted by Calerxes
I personally like to read up on a game when the beta phase is coming to an end and the NDA has lifted so thats why after 3 years since the announcement I'm just now reading the SW:TOR boards regularly. And what I want is both the good and the bad but with all the noise coming from one section of the community it is difficult to hear both sides clearly. This makes me think that critque is truly dead and you will only get an extreme version of one side of the argument as to whether a newly coming MMO is worth investing in. I'm in this weekends beta so I can see for myself with regards to SW:TOR but that might not always be the case with upcoming MMO's so I'd really like the players who do follow the games development closely to open up to critique only that way will the games companies produce better games.

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There are doomsayers and fanbois alike all over the boards, to be sure. When someone tries to pass their opinion as fact (happening on both sides of the fence), others feel the need for clarification instead of blindly taking the written word as gospel.

All in all, most of the reviews I have read are not worth my time. Many just gush "This is the best game ever!" or "This is DoA (Dead on Arrival)!" Very few reviews are well thought out, unbiased, realistic reflections strung together with examples. Many of the doomsayer reviews are just rants like "This game is just like my other games." Many of the fanboi reviews are just the same, but opposite rants like "This is so unlike any other of my games."

The best way to read all these posts is with open eyes, a critical (questioning) mind, and a grain or three of salt. I have yet to find one person who has the exact same definition of a "fun MMO" as I have. Reviews are, after all, opinions.

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Originally posted by Teala
Anyway...I have been here and done this...SW:ToR is nothing new, it is what it is, just like Aion, Warhammer, Rift - gamers will flock to it at first then the slow migration to other games and or their previous game will begin.    Oh and don't bother telling me it won't happen with SW:ToR - it will...history is on my side. 

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I am impressed with your ability to see the future. Can you market that at all? Could be a great money maker :)

Good post by the OP!

Personally I think the shouting down we see in many different places comes from childish and ill-manered forum members in co-operation with weak admins (admins who just give in to the mob).

In thoose cases it is better to not moderate at all or give a reprimand to the ones actually doing the bashing (instead of the opposite which is more common).