i Agree with the Author of this thread.  pvp don't belong to mmo at least is designed from the bottom  and up with that system in mind.  otherwise it ends up causing nothing but trouble.  

Poor design, lack of depth, thats what ruins MMOs.....

Originally posted by PortlyFit

If you want to PVP play fair in a FPS.  My argument is as simple as that.

The PVP mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates.  Worse, you want to defeat them and that destroys all sense of community. 

I might be wrong, thoughts?

I dislike MMO's with the system in mind you have to team up....I like playing solo in a immersive world with others in it, and against others, not being forced to team up for 99% of the game's content.....The PVE mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates, only their skills and what they can bring to fulfill your PVE addiction.

I might be wrong, thoughts?

Originally posted by Muke

Originally posted by PortlyFit

If you want to PVP play fair in a FPS.  My argument is as simple as that.

The PVP mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates.  Worse, you want to defeat them and that destroys all sense of community. 

I might be wrong, thoughts?

I dislike MMO's with the system in mind you have to team up....I like playing solo in a immersive world with others in it, and against others, not being forced to team up for 99% of the game's content.....The PVE mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates, only their skills and what they can bring to fulfill your PVE addiction.

I might be wrong, thoughts?

I agree, and feel the same way about grouping in an MMO. I play online games for the persistent world and the options of playing with or against real people. When they start designing the majority of their content to require cooperation, they make the game alot less enjoyable for those that enjoy solo or small group play. MMO's should always be about freedom to play the way you want.

Originally posted by PortlyFit

If you want to PVP play fair in a FPS.  My argument is as simple as that.

The PVP mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates.  Worse, you want to defeat them and that destroys all sense of community. 

I might be wrong, thoughts?

I cannot play an MMO that does not feature PvP.

Because an MMO that only features PVE is no different than a Solo RPG game played on Multiplayer Mode. It simply does not make sense to play an MMO without PVP to me and it is boring as hell.

I've never enjoyed PvP in an MMO nearly as much as playing FPSers.  PvP in an MMO should have normalized gear, otherwise what's the point?

 no badly designed pvp in pve game ruins an mmo.

PvP does not ruin MMOs, design choices do!

Every class has to have 50 different and unique skills compared to other classes. However no class should be better than the other in a 1 vs 1. So maybe give a class lesser skills? Maybe focus more on groupdynamics? Maybe go more to a paper-rock-spock system?

What about ffa-pvp. Why do players see that as an open invitation to kill everything on sight? Most of the time these players have nothing to loose. They get killed by the angry mob. They resurrect at a certain point, hike back to their base or nearest vault and start roaming the lands/streets again. Not that I want them to be banned for life after PK-ing, but give the victims a chance to return the favor, by destroying the guildhall/city of said pk-er.

Sorry, but how does something that is 100% optional in nearly every game ruin said game?  If you dont like to pvp . . . dont pvp.  The real problem is that pvp in modern games is trash and designed for mass appeal.  A few minutes and its all over, thus never requiring the player time to adjust and improve.  And thanks to games like WoW having pvp gear, success is dependant on gear, not skill or experience.

The biggest problem in this genre is people like the OP.  They do not like one aspect of the genre so they want the entire genre to change to his liking.  That's why we have so much fps influence in games today, and now apparently pokemon herding is going to be a new fixture of the genre.  Bottom line is, if there is a part of the game you do not like or suck at . . . don't do it.  Focus on what you enjoy and don't whine about the rest, especially when you do not even have to be exposed to it to begin with.

And for the record, I have had far more issues and had more run-ins with asshats in pve than I ever had in pvp.

Originally posted by Sensai

Sorry, but how does something that is 100% optional in nearly every game ruin said game?

 

Sorry bubbles but it's not 100% optional in ALL games thats a lie. Unless you've played EVERY game known to man FOREVER then your statement is simply a logical FALLACY that is all.

IT is a problem and here's why. PVP skills are not separate from pve. GW2 will be one of the first games to EVER make them two separate items so that when pvp balance is needed it will NEVER affect the pve game play. SWTOR doesn't even do that and thus SWTOR will continue the age old tradition of lazy DEVs who never learn from history and make the change to a better model. GW2 all the way baby.

I can't even play an MMO without PvP. It's probably the main reason why I couldn't get into LotRO.

PvP definitely though does not ruin community, instead it strengthens it because you have guild mates and realm-mates who are all trying to achieve the same goal, saving the zone from being captured by the enemy.

I can't recall how many fights I've had in Warhammer Online that I could not win without my guildies.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Sensai

Sorry, but how does something that is 100% optional in nearly every game ruin said game?

 

Sorry bubbles but it's not 100% optional in ALL games thats a lie. Unless you've played EVERY game known to man FOREVER then your statement is simply a logical FALLACY that is all.

Ah, another short bus poster.  Read the post again "sweetheart", it states "nearly every".  Do you know what that means?  Let me explain it for you, that means most, but not all.  And since you bear such great knowledge, please for the benefit of all of us, tells us all the mmorpgs were pvp is mandatory.  Can you name even five?  Maybe you need to check your own facts before you try to look cool on the interweb, douche.

Originally posted by itgrowls

IT is a problem and here's why. PVP skills are not separate from pve. GW2 will be one of the first games to EVER make them two separate items so that when pvp balance is needed it will NEVER affect the pve game play. SWTOR doesn't even do that and thus SWTOR will continue the age old tradition of lazy DEVs who never learn from history and make the change to a better model. GW2 all the way baby.

Exactly. You just have to look at a game like Rift and the numerous "buff" "nerf" cycles it has undergone, in each patch. Like the recent buff to Rogues & nerf to healers effectively killed the game's cleric healer PvP community, with most of them (including myself) waiting for the next round of buffs & nerfs (which will make Mage's OP again). It's that kind of thoughtlessness from MMORPG devs that ruins a game's PvP for most people and I can't imagine why these devs haven't learnt anything from the original Guild Wars 1, that the best way to balance PvP is to balance it seperately from PvE.

And that's not all the issues I have with MMORPG PvP. There's also the PvP gear grind and the reliance on said gear, to actually be effective. Plus stupid mechanics like heal debuffs (Rift is the worst offender of this one).

What's sad is that I'm a PvP'er. I love PvP centric games like Modern Warfare, Starcraft 2 & Super Street Fighter 4. Yet games like LOTRO and Rift have turned me into a PvE'er, within the MMORPG genre, due to their poor implementation of PvP. Here's hoping that Guild Wars 2 can change that, because really, that's my only hope for fun MMORPG PvP.

PVP is the only thing left "dyanimc" in most MMO. The rest are dungeon bore fests where you can literally "set a watch" to when things are going to happen.

No. People ruin MMO's. PvP it is just a feature in a game where you compare your toon controlling skills with other players .. everything else are just your emotions....

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I've never enjoyed PvP in an MMO nearly as much as playing FPSers.  PvP in an MMO should have normalized gear, otherwise what's the point?

Well yeah, but that is nto the fault of PvP, that is the fault of the Design.

You are approaching the problem from the wrong angle...Implementing levels and non normalized gear is a way to provide Rewards for a Progression based game, but that in itself is what alientates PvP in an MMO when PvP should be one of the focus elements makig an MMO since it is part of Player Interaction.

And player Interaction is one of the true Pillars of what makes an MMO, no matter what the media is trying to shove down our throats.

Originally posted by PortlyFit

If you want to PVP play fair in a FPS.  My argument is as simple as that.

The PVP mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates.  Worse, you want to defeat them and that destroys all sense of community. 

I might be wrong, thoughts?

Most MMOs have faction systems where you can't fight against your own side. Fighting against a common enemy usually does enhance the community feel. ie: DAoC, I never played it but I hear the bonds between same faction players were very strong due to always fighting together against the other 2 factions.

I guess you had WoW arena in mind and there yes, same faction fights do occur. In this case I agree it doesn't do much good.

But the real community killer in WoW wasn't the arena, it was the cross server PvP and later dungeon finder.

You can't build a community if the players you play with or against are on other realms where you might never see them again.

Originally posted by PortlyFit

If you want to PVP play fair in a FPS.  My argument is as simple as that.

The PVP mentality destroys MMO's because you do not care for your playmates.  Worse, you want to defeat them and that destroys all sense of community. 

I might be wrong, thoughts?

 PVP does not destroy MMO's. I have made many friends in PVP even people who have killed me or I have killed. That is why people like you have your PVE server because you obviously can't handle PVP. If you do not like it don't roll a PVP server it is simple as that.