Trending Games | Elder Scrolls Online | Guild Wars 2 | WildStar | Rift
Network: Gamertube FPSguru RTSguru
| 117 posts found | |
|---|---|
|
11/11/11 4:30:41 PM#81
Originally posted by TdogSkal I really do not see how these are examples of 'problem solving'. You needed to get specific items and it required time and luck to get them. I don't generally consider brute forcing things to be much of problem solving. |
|
|
11/11/11 4:32:42 PM#82
Originally posted by Dibdabs God forbid anyone should learn patience. We should all get diagnosed with ADHD. No wonder our school system is failing, the kids can't sit down and shut up long enough to learn anything. "How should I know if it works? That's what beta testers are for. I only coded it." |
|
|
11/11/11 4:36:04 PM#83
Asheron's call takes 10x skill than the hotbar based skillless combat that wow and its many clones use. |
|
Knowledge of any given game is particular to that game. Knowing a ton of stuff about UO isn't going to help you make a ton of money on the Auction House in WoW. You have to have knowledge of WoW, the items, their relative worth, etc. in order to do so. Knowledge of UO is a skill, but how does that make someone 'better' or more 'skilled' than a WoW player, who has extensive knowledge of WoW? This leaves us with planning and team work. I think I've already added Planning to my original post. I should add Team Work as well. Now, how does the planning and team work in an old school game differentiate an old school gamer from a new school gamer? Don't take the average gamer from any game. The 'average' gamer is called 'average' for a reason. Take an end game raider from WoW and whatever the equivalent player is from UO. They both use an abundance of planning, team work, communication skills, etc. They both need an in depth knowledge of what they're doing. Where's the gap between the old school and the new school? Does the gap only occur while the WoW player is leveling? Join the League For Gamers. |
|
|
TdogSkal
 Novice Member
Joined: 5/11/06
Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants. |
11/11/11 4:39:53 PM#85
Originally posted by Torik The problem is nothing is telling where to find the keys or how to find them or where to even look. Just when you try to open the door it says "door is locked, requires key floor 1" In Wow the same quest would say "Door is locked, required key floor 1 which can be found on the skeleton lord who is in his throne room" See the difference?
Also the VT required my guild to figure out how we could hurt this boss mob, the first time we tried him, we failed badly because only the casters could hurt the boss and the melee could not. The Second time we tried it a different way and that failed again because we could not do enough damage. After we failed the second time we decided to look talked to the quest giver again and got a new quest. 'The prophecy will come to pass at last. Take my knowledge... the knowledge of our lord. I will not last much longer. This sickness will kill me like the others. There is one other who can help you. He claims to know some weakness of these creatures, seek him at the smelting furnaces near the mines. Now I must tell you the secret of the key.' That is what quest look like in EQ, I assume you know what quest look like in WoW. Tell me how WoW required the same problem solving skills as EQ. Sooner or Later |
If brute forcing something solves a problem, it's problem solving. If brute force is the only solution, then it's the correct solution. *shrug* A lot of mmorpg playing is brute forcing your way through stuff. A lot of problem solving is also trial and error because that's the only way to get the information that you need out of the puzzle. Many of the mmorpg 'puzzles' do not offer any clues as to how they work. I have already accepted 'Problem Solving' as a skill though. It makes sense to me. I don't know that the problem solving in an old school game is that much harder than in a new school game, especially when you get around to end game raiding and such in new school games...but I do find it plenty plausible that there's more of it, and that the problems are harder to solve. ** edit ** And to some other points - I can also accept that it takes more team work to level in an old school game versus a new school game. I'm not sure that this is a skill as much as it is a character trait though. Someone either is or is not good and working well with people. But you could get into a whole discussion about what the difference is between a character trait and a skill as well, and I don't want to go there. Persistence, patience and the tendency to be careful I believe are definitely character traits, not skills. Join the League For Gamers. |
|
|
11/11/11 4:50:04 PM#87
MMO skills
Tank: Go in hit mob, grab aggro, keep aggro and pray to god that a healer heal you, if not pop cooldowns Healer: Watch tank and DPS go in, start casting your heals. Pray to god that the other people have at least 2 braincells. DPS: Wait for tank to engage mobs, start flailing and try to not grab aggro.
There you have it, my rxperince of MMO's since Meridian 59 and forward... Funny enough it still works.
Old games did not have any higher need for "skills" then today... Truth be told you most likley need more skills today as a VERY LOUD brood of old players demand more and more from the mmo's they play as they "have seen it all". That being said the old games did require a lot more time invested and usualy had a much higher barrier to high level content. But that is not skill in any way shape or form. For an example i am going to use WoW as it is a very good example of advancment in encounters,
Old WoW dungeons was pretty much just tank and spank, the only challange came in the form of "tac nuke" hits or swarming... The new dungeons do show a few more challanges every now and then taking a lot more skill to complete. Or well more skill is not really the right word... A different set of skills is probably the right way to put it. But to say that it took more skill is to put one self on a pedistal, wich in turn only make you look silly, standing there like some old greek.
This have been a good conversation |
|
|
Comaf
 Elite Member
Joined: 7/13/10
I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters. |
11/11/11 5:00:53 PM#88
Originally posted by lizardbones Mmorpgs (EQ, Ultima, DAoC, Asheron's Call, etc) were developed from creative competition whose goal was to convince a player they were in some other place and time (i.e., immersion).
As we "progress" in society, expectations from schools to .... even mmorpgs which are built to aim at as large an audience as possible have been lowered. This is why Dark Age of Camelot can have 3 realms, 44 classes, 15+ races, in 2001, and today you see a gazillion 5 class anime toons in a free to play cash shop game with bots and <25 year olds begging for powerleveling.
It's all instant gratification (battlegrounds vs having to build actual structures and strategize long term defense offense) and minimal thinking entertainment, i.e., you can buy a reindeer at the cash shop!
The genre is dead. I've moved on to rpg.
|
|
11/11/11 5:17:21 PM#89
Originally posted by tawess I like you. It's funny to see people deride WoW's current, supposed ease ("game dumb enough for kids") and it is these same people who are having a tough time in 5 mans because the Cataclysm 5 mans have finally come into their own and are like mini raids with bosses having actual mechanics and not just "roll face across keyboard, hit stuff". "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." I need to take this advice more. |
|
I suppose this has something to do with skill in old school mmorpg, and how more of it was required, and we're supposed to intuit that from your post. However, I can't help but wonder why you bothered posting this. Of course you have every right to post here, same as everyone else. Nobody would take that away from you just for posting here. I really just wonder why you bothered. Join the League For Gamers. |
|
|
11/11/11 5:53:10 PM#91
Originally posted by lizardbones If that were the case than WoW would not be the most recommended MMORPG for someone getting started. You can also persistently fail. If you persistently fail in newer MMORPGs than you still level because you gain experience as you keep failing but this is not true with old EQ, for example.
Think of it this way . .... what if someone were to post in LFG forums saying that they were not a skilled player and wanted something easy to get introduced to MMORPG gaming? Almost everyone would recommend WoW and if the poster asked about original EQ or UO he may be recommended to stay away from those and to try something newer and easier because everyone and their dog knows its easier.
If someone said that they couldn't play oldschool games because he did not have the patience for them than we would understand what he was saying because they do require more patience than the newer games. If someone said something along the lines of "I don't have the skill it takes to play those oldschool games" than would you call this person impatient and not understand how oldschool games can be more difficult for some people?
I was just playing wifi with my Dad the other day which was cool because that is the first time that I have seen the old fart succeed at playing a video game. He would definitely say that he doesn't have the skill to play regular console games or MMORPGs and everyone would agree with him . .. I mean it takes 90 minutes for me to walk him over how to send an email . .. he is patient with it and tries for a long time on his own but just sucks at computer stuff and ends up doing only god knows what as he is trying to send an email. I am almost positive that if my dad persistently played WoW or WAR, etc. than he would level up although slowly and would probably take forever doing even the simple quests. Would he level up in the original EQ? LOL I doubt it . ... he would probably keep dying and losing XP and nobody would want to group with him. I could be nice and try to convince him that he just needs to be patient and persistent but lets face it ... . . he sucks at video games!
There are so many ways in which you could say that oldschool games are harder and be absolutely correct. NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do. |
|
|
11/11/11 5:54:09 PM#92
Well, I played a Hunter in WoW (and only mentioning it because many can relate). I have been a Survival hunter from Vanilla to Lich King, not only that but I am more of a PvPer than a PVEer, so I went to all the 40 mans in Grand Marshal Gear during Vanilla, and Pulled it off nevertheless. One of the reasons I stopped playing WoW is because the direction of the game went in to a segregation mode. BC onwards there was more and more separation between PVE and PvP gear, I personally dilike that. While I do enjoy taking part in raids for the curiosity the story the quests involved etc, I am not fond of repeating them to death. I do not give a rats arse for the rewards and the gear they promise, what I seek is the experience of having been there or having had fun with 9, 24, or 39 other people and taking on the challenge. When the game forced me to have to mentally go nuts through repetitive gameplay I just gave up on it all together, and never looked back since. Now, was the fact that I did what I did in vanilla question of Skill? It depends. I think "skill" is another concept that is somehow very subjective from person to person but also it is a question of how a specific game has been designed, its mechanics. In a game such as Planetside, skill had little to do with knowledge and more to do with hand eye coordination, commonly called twitch. But in a game such as WoW, it has little to do with twitch and much to do with knowledge of the game itself withn the area of interest. In PvP it is good to know and learn about the abilities and associated animations as well as the efects of all the classes because in combination with the knowledge and abilities of the class you play you can then properly react to various situations and use these abilities to your advantage or to counter the abilities of your opponent in a given Combat engagement. In PVE, (raids) the knoweldge is about the Mobs and Bosses, what they do when they do it how can it be avoided or countered. Combined with your class knowledge and of cource the ability to either Lead and Coordinate a Team of Raiders or ability to follow that lead when your not the one leading. Other than that there is no other skill per se in WoW in my opinion, the game is Level/gear based, you give my Grandmother a Geared Epic Character and she will be able to kill any opponent in lesser gear than her. It is just numbers, 20k Health is bigger than 12k Health, 1000 armor rating is bigger than 500 armor rating, 40% crit is bigger than 20% crit etc etc...no skill involved just arithmetic (provided no lag or other factors impeeding someone), when you hit you do much more damage than your opponent and they have less health than you, you cannot lose and they cannot win in a direct confrontation. So skill depends not only on our interpretation but also on the game mechanics themselves. Which makes the whole perception of "skill" very subjective and in some cases arbitrary. This is why Discipline Priests were considered less powerfull than Holy Priests for raidining because people simply calculated the enhancements of the Specs. Now the fact that some Disc Priests were able to outperform some Holy priets is a question of knowledge, and in this case, yes, Skill. The holy priests were less skilled playing their class in a given situation than the Discipline priest, but if skill was equal the Holy priest at that time would out perform the discipline one. In and of itself this is another reason why I quit WoW, because people can calculate these things and then can reject including other people in Raids or whatever the activity is based on the outlook of one's spec. So as a player you cannot even really have a choice if you wish to participate in different activities, you have to conform to that general result of the calculation or simply not participate. Skill or no Skill the person who puts together a team does not necessarilly know you and will base the decision on calculations. I think a game such as this is a Bad design. Different specs should be about different ways to accomplish the same thing, not about accomplishing different things because then you create segregating conditions. Plus, well, the perception of Skill becomes meaningless. And people like to feel like they are Skilled, you remove that idea and people seek another game to play. As for Old school vs new School perceptions, again it depends on the game. Old School games were differently designed. In UO gear did not make a difference, and it was semi-twitch too, it had no levels so everyone had same amount of health. It could happen that someone with rank 50 skills can kill someone with rank 100 skills provided they applied better strategies to fight the opponent within a semi-twitch context, and a bit of preparation, having your skills well placed in your screen, and easy access to your potions bandages and healing spells. So in the context of UO if you have two characters with same equipment and health as well as Character skills then itis a question of preparation and twitch that made the difference, aka Player skill. Twitch is a Player skill, there is nothing you can do other than improving youself to beat it. In that sense yes Old School games required more Skill. As in present day games, this twitch has been largelly removed and the ones that have it do not fare well either since most people would prefer that ones that do not have it. This is what WoW actually did (refer to Grandmother exemple above), you just Tab select and auto hit with your abilities and gear plus levels does the rest. Everyone can be "good" like that, provided they are patient to do the repetitive tasks that will give them access to the things that will make the difference and compensate for their lack of twitch. That is it that is all. Just me two cents. - Duke Suraknar -
|
|
|
11/11/11 6:02:29 PM#93
Originally posted by lizardbones A Bachelor or Master in Computer Science required us to do advanced algebra, advanced logic, advanced analysis, advanced mechanics, advances physics, advanced statistics, advanced data structures and advanced mathematical reasoning. Once you succeeded in all of those, we wrote our first line of code. Writing a macro takes 5 minutes. For me skill is something that takes someone years to perfect, it's honed and it takes labour and practice. Smithing, woodwork, drawing, those are skills for me, I don't consider MMO a skill, even though it's learning by repetition, the game purposely lets you wallow in their timesink, you only move as fast as the game allows, it's not really the same thing as a skill. |
|
|
11/11/11 6:18:48 PM#94
Originally posted by tawess love it...with exception of last line....not going to reread all of this as i actually read every post. but thats exacatly what this thread is about....the pedastal...its like who would win between batman and superman, who would win between oldschool mmos and newschool mmos...ie which would take higher skill.....which deserves to be raised on the pedastal of skill and how are we defining it? correct me if im wrong lizard i was hoping my rant about performing at highest possible level would end this but if u look at skills having to be learned....none of these games require instinct. not like u being born into the wild as a cub, having to fend for yerself as a part of a society in which u learn what part of the chain u are and how to interract. i havent heard any mention of darkfall, but i dont have any knowledge about it. conning systems and aggro somewhat mimic this but its not like mobs actively roam around having to purchase food and equipment for themselves. if u want the difference between old vs new mmos argue about this. offense, defense, support. compare the value of being a cleric in eq, over being a priest in wow, over being a healer in ac, over simply being a mage with heals or warrior with bandages in uo, over being a healer in guild wars,etc. find the commonalities, find the differentiations for each and every class combo. game mechanics all boil down to grind. differences being immersion and penalties. so that really shouldnt factor in because those boil down to opinions. i like harsh death penalties and hour long corpse runs, others dont. so get this....apparently from a previous post healers could run around and tank mobs and melee them in wow whereas doin that in eq would get you killed except vs maybe undead mobs (excpetion being aa expansions which made them solo gods...ridiculous). in uo healers were simply mages with a heal spell, which wasnt all that efficient so most players also raised bandaging to resolve this offset. in guild wars monks can actually not even be healers, they can be nice dps support instead. guild wars 2 apparently wont have healers, gotta look out and keep yerself on yer toes... it is generally understood that being good means being competent in any given area. but as it has been posted being good in uo wont make u good in ac or eq. is there someone who cant play a video game? no.... are there those that never make it to top tier gameplay? there used to not be but now everyone can seemingly make it and thats the difference i guess, no sifting to find gold, now you can reach yer hand in and pluck gold by the tons, which makes it unvaluable. for me oldschool mmos had value, new mmos have very little value. old mmos were harder...obviously, thats simply the difference between "i used to walk 15 miles in negative weather to get to school....u get to drive which i didnt get to do until i was in my damn 50s" lol. this mmo generation has obvious advantages the older generations didnt have and that could mean different skill sets. i bet most people dotn know how to ride a horse or plow a field whereas those were common "skills" back in the day. tech has made so many workers obsolete, games have made older mechanics obsolete. difference being, now most games lead u by the nose, older games gave u a swift kick. new workers dont have it any easier than old workers, conditions and hours are just generally better, so why the simplicity in games rather than just the comfort? should just let me hit play and win with that mentality. there used to be an obvious top tier of players, tell me why when i first started guild wars everyone rushed and won, then i beat it, let it gather dust for awhile, go back want to have some fun join a mission and people sittin there discussin things and losing...oldschool gamers generally have faith in their experience and skill level. u can "brute through things" if u know yer role u dont need to talk about what yer doing and how yer doing it because its healthily understood, offense, defense, and support will always be required. which is why i loved this last post. but there is an obvious lack of "skill" and a pedastal needs to be defined so gamers know what to look for and developers know what to produce. otherwise we have no direction and games will remain watered down theme parks rather than polished gems of entertainment. achievement systems are incomplete.....they are like badges and should be earned not handed out. games were meant to be beaten....no reason to reward me for being persistant, no skill is gained only trial and error and knowledge....doing the game on hardest difficulty without dying.....thats an achievement....simply beating the game is not....having a time frame to do it in....even better....killing the biggest boss in game with a rusty dagger solo....thats an achievement (although impossible, which is why games are incomplete lol)...until then there will be no true skill except in fighting games. if u know yerself and know yer enemy you need not fear the outcome of any battle, so is skill in the knowing? no the skill is of the self and of the enemy, knowing is half the battle. 
|
|
|
11/11/11 6:31:31 PM#95
kudos to suraknar
|
|
|
11/12/11 12:26:42 AM#96
Sure, they all take "skill", but in reality, all mmorpgs require now is experience. Both literally and virtually. No pun intended.
The more experience you have in playing modern mmorpgs, the better you will be. That goes for all mmorpgs except a couple twitch based ones. Those require some hand eye coordination and some minor dexterity in addition to experience.
With experience comes knowledge. Of your character, of the game interface, of game shortcuts and commands, of the mechanics of the game, the different class mechanics (both combat and non-combat), the NPC mechanics, the virtual world, etc. The more you know, the more you can accomplish in the game. The only difference with "old school" mmorpgs is that they required much more knowledge, and were often much less revealing in how their systems worked.
In the end, much like life, an mmo requires knowledge and experience to be successful. There are many "skill" subsets that can make you more successful in any particular game, but that skill is not particularly more valuable in "old school" mmorpgs. |
|
|
BlackWatch
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/01/06
WTB the option to play on 'mature' game servers. |
11/12/11 12:56:54 AM#97
Anything truly complex, hard, or thought evoking has been simplified, nerfed, or watered down.
Why? The most simple explanation: To reduce customer service requests/tickets.
People are lazy. Most won't even take the time to alt-tab to their browser and use Google to search for an answer. They will, however, create a ticket and request assistance. Thus... In game tools and aids are implemented to help make things increasingly more 'simple'. Almost everything has been made 'easier'.
Is that good? In some ways, yes. In others... no. Blame the dumb and lazy people if you don't like the direction that games are going.
|
|
11/12/11 8:16:21 AM#98
There are certainly very good and very bad WOW players, who implies there are varying amounts of skill (which one would think you wouldn't need to imply, simply by taking a brief glance at the types of skills and enemies in the game and how they force different tactics.) To define skill: Skill is making the right decision and executing it. In games factors of making the right decision are knowledge, tactics, and strategy. Factors of executing it are twitch (and usually somewhat minimal in MMORPGs; they're MMORPGs, after all.) Older games involved some skill, but in some cases those games just hid things behind enormous grind. A grind doesn't change the amount of skill required to accomplish something, only the amount of patience required. And since players tend to play games for interesting decisions -- skill -- they are strongly averse to grind (which spreads out the interesting decisions over long periods of time, rather than delivering a dense amount of them at all times.) A game does not become better, and certainly doesn't require more skill, by doubling the XP it takes to level. That has only doubled the amount of patience required, and halved the rate of interesting decisions. |
|
|
11/12/11 8:32:15 AM#99
The character build is one of the more crutial points of every mmorpg. The difference is this. Some mmorpg's reward smart and carefull player choises thatare hard to make, and some others mmorpg's enourages exploiters who just prefer to read certain sites about what's the best build for their toons. And it's not the players fault's ofc, but the the companies which make the player character's builds so bloody plain easy to figure. |
|
|
11/12/11 10:52:58 AM#100
Originally posted by tazarconan7 Um, the distinction you make doesn't exist. If an MMORPG has different builds, those builds are going to be posted online. So every MMORPG with customization would automatically fall under your second category. And it's completely silly to call that "exploiting". Exploits are taking advantags of bugs or loopholes in rules (which are the same thing.) |
|
.jpg){kind=avatar}
Friends: vgchartz.com
Not a member? You can still subscribe to our newsletters and daily updates here!
May 23, 2013 2:06 AM
- Page Created in 0.578 seconds -
