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Originally posted by zaxtor99

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Originally posted by lizardbones
Asheron's Call PvP Combat is not indicative of 'Old School MMORPG' play. There is a completely different set of skills necessary to be competitive and successful at FPS/TPS combat as opposed to 'Classic' MMORPG combat. You're doing two different things.

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OMG. Now AC isn't an mmorpg anymore. It's an "FPS". I suppose RIFT is a real mmorpg hmm?

Sorry to disagree again but I played Asheron's Call Darktide server for seven years. AC is a helluva lot more "mmorpg" then 90% of what you probably call mmorpgs released today.

But what do I know against all these people who never even played AC?

AC is a an FPS game.

With that, I suppose Ultima Online isn't an mmorpg either. I guess it's really a turn based strategy game right?

- Zaxx

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Disdena... You are talking about a game that you never even played. You admitted that. Now you're saying that the movement skills needed to play a mage as I directed you to are a "cover-up" for a lack of complexity in the game?

You never played the game man.

Enough said.

- Zaxx

Originally posted by zaxtor99

Disdena... You are talking about a game that you never even played. You admitted that. Now you're saying that the movement skills needed to play a mage as I directed you to are a "cover-up" for a lack of complexity in the game?

You never played the game man.

Enough said.

 

- Zaxx

"can easily be used to cover up a lack of complexity" were my exact words.

I'm not talking about AC, I'm talking in general. In general, one reason that a game might use overly complicated controls is to mask a lack of complexity. For AC specifically, I'll admit that's probably not the reason. It's probably because it's a very old game and keyb/mouse controls hadn't yet become standard, so they went with what they thought would work best.

I'm giving you some really easy outs to explain how (other than Z,→,C,←,Z,?,←,C,C,↓) playing AC Darktide requires a ton of skill that isn't present in modern games. You've yet to even try.

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Originally posted by lizardbones
I didn't say AC isn't an mmorpg. I've never played it, so I wouldn't be a good judge of that. Your description of AC's combat is not similar to the combat in pretty much any other mmorpg though. Old school or otherwise. Your description of the combat sounds much more like FPS or TPS combat. The combat is fundamentally different and doesn't have a whole lot to do with why people repeated say that old school mmorpg take more skill to play than new school mmorpg.

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While I do understand that you didn't say directly that AC isn't an mmorpg, I went off on you because it was obvious that you as well never played the game bro. AC, especially on the Darktide PvP server was ALL about the combat. So me seeing you state that AC combat was FPS combat was basically the same as reading that AC was an FPS, because so much of Darktide was about the combat mechanics.

AC in definitely an mmorpg, even with it's combat. The problem isn't that AC ventured off the main path with it's combat style, but rather that the common mmorpg today is based on macros and hot keys and it so much different that what AC was back in the day.

Asherons Call was really only the 3rd main stream mmorpg in existence (Ultima Online in 1997, EQ in 1998, and AC in 1999) I am excluding graphical mmos like Meridian 59, but I am really only talking about bigtime mmos with retail publishers here.

Asheron's Call helped define what an mmorpg was much more then any MMO released today simply because back then mmorpgs were not nearly as popular or main stream as they are today.

Anyhow, I can understand how you might think the fast paced combat of AC as I describe it might be FPS, it really wasn't FPS, just much faster and had more depth to it then something like World of Warcraft and so many other mmos today. It was still very much RPG because you took damage based on protection spells vs sword or spell damage, you could heal, cast spells, heath, stamina, and mana were used while fighting etc etc. Very much RPG, just faster paced with much more depth.

I wish they'd make one mmo today in ACs image and style rather then the 473rd copying World of Wacraft myself. ..As do most of the old AC players. Unfortunately, Wow is much more profitable with it's main stream game mechanics and so AC is just an old, hidden gem today and old AC vets like me are left just frustrated trying to explain how/why it was so great.

I guess it's one of those things where "you really just had to be there" because unfortunately even though Asherons Call is still running today, it's not even a fraction of what it once was.

- Zaxx

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Originally posted by zaxtor99

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Originally posted by lizardbones
I didn't say AC isn't an mmorpg. I've never played it, so I wouldn't be a good judge of that. Your description of AC's combat is not similar to the combat in pretty much any other mmorpg though. Old school or otherwise. Your description of the combat sounds much more like FPS or TPS combat. The combat is fundamentally different and doesn't have a whole lot to do with why people repeated say that old school mmorpg take more skill to play than new school mmorpg.

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While I do understand that you didn't say directly that AC isn't an mmorpg, I went off on you because it was obvious that you as well never played the game bro. AC, especially on the Darktide PvP server was ALL about the combat. So me seeing you state that AC combat was FPS combat was basically the same as reading that AC was an FPS, because so much of Darktide was about the combat mechanics.

AC in definitely an mmorpg, even with it's combat. The problem isn't that AC ventured off the main path with it's combat style, but rather that the common mmorpg today is based on macros and hot keys and it so much different that what AC was back in the day.

Asherons Call was really only the 3rd main stream mmorpg in existence (Ultima Online in 1997, EQ in 1998, and AC in 1999) I am excluding graphical mmos like Meridian 59, but I am really only talking about bigtime mmos with retail publishers here.

Asheron's Call helped define what an mmorpg was much more then any MMO released today simply because back then mmorpgs were not nearly as popular or main stream as they are today.

Anyhow, I can understand how you might think the fast paced combat of AC as I describe it might be FPS, it really wasn't FPS, just much faster and had more depth to it then something like World of Warcraft and so many other mmos today. It was still very much RPG because you took damage based on protection spells vs sword or spell damage, you could heal, cast spells, heath, stamina, and mana were used while fighting etc etc. Very much RPG, just faster paced with much more depth.

I wish they'd make one mmo today in ACs image and style rather then the 473rd copying World of Wacraft myself. ..As do most of the old AC players. Unfortunately, Wow is much more profitable with it's main stream game mechanics and so AC is just an old, hidden gem today and old AC vets like me are left just frustrated trying to explain how/why it was so great.

I guess it's one of those things where "you really just had to be there" because unfortunately even though Asherons Call is still running today, it's not even a fraction of what it once was.

- Zaxx

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Here's an additional example of what I'm looking for here.

I'm playing WoW right now, leveling a new character on a new server. I don't want my character to be broke so I'm playing the auction house while I'm leveling. I have to make sure I have enough materials and make sure to sell the right materials at the right time to make money. This involves planning, learning how the economy works on the server I'm on and it also involves some timing. Is it better to sell stuff in the morning or evening to maximize the possibility that something will get sold? How much should I undercut the current auctions to guarantee a sale, while making it worth my time to sell something? Should I just vendor the items since they're not likely to sell at all?

Now, all of that doesn't take a whole lot of effort on my part, but it does take some. You can't just blunder around in the auction house and actually make money. You'll also find yourself short on gold if you don't use the auction house to sell stuff. It's not absolutely necessary, but you'll spend a lot of time walking when you could be flying.

I don't know how hard doing the equivalent things were in Ultima Online, but I assume there was an economy and if you wanted to have in game money, you sold stuff to other players instead of vendors. Even without a global auction house, using player run shops, the overall process would be the same. It would certainly take more effort and more time, but that doesn't equal more skill. The amount of skill required is exactly the same (knowing what to sell and when to sell it), it just requires more effort in the old school game.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

If one trading system allows for more complexity and nuance and takes more effort than another (and moreoever you are thus competing in a market of agents all able to handle said complexity) then it could easily be argued that to master one system over the other takes more "skill". Even with the ambiguity of the word.

The removal of a centralised exchange is an interesting point. You seem to be saying that that merely means a time grind in order to ship your wares, when it is anything but that. Decentralising trading activity gives rise to all manner of complexities and possibilities that a trader can take advantage of. Market arbitrage, trade route manipulation, trade contracts with haulers and the like. It is these little complexities that allow for a trader to demonstrate their skill over and above the usual level you see in modern mmos.

These complexities are missing throughout the mechanics in most modern mmos, from the pvp through to the crafting and the trading. And these mechanics do indeed allow a player to demonstrate more "skills" and thus a greater net total "skill".

Originally posted by lizardbones

Here's how it sounds to me when someone says, "It took more skill to play {insert old school game here} than these newer, easier games!"

If I wanted to learn how to do a high jump, I could certainly try to do it, but I'm going to fail. I'm reasonably athletic and fairly coordinated, but high jumping just isn't a skill I possess.

If I wanted to play Ultima Online*, I certainly could, with a (probably) high degree of success. If it takes 'skill', I would assume that there are people who could not play Ultima Online* with any degree of success. They would literally fail at being able to play the game. They would have the desire to play, they would think the game is fun...they just wouldn't be able to do it.

I don't think there exists people who cannot play Ultima Online*. They just don't want to. The 'skills' necessary for playing old school game are common. The personality traits needed are not.

There are some possible exceptions to this though. Planning ahead is something you can work on and improve. So is researching information. The more you research, the better you get (for most people). I'm not sure these count since you could easily compensate by being friendly and having other people do the planning and research for you. You can do the same thing in WoW. For that matter, do you really have to be better at those things, or can you just be careful not to run into any angry mobs?

Again, I want to reiterate that I don't think Ultima Online* was as easy to play as a game like World of Warcraft. But I hear the word 'skill' being thrown around without any definitive description of those skills and how they differentiate an 'old school mmorpg player' from a 'new school mmorpg player'. People have described skills needed for playing mmorpg (thank you all, btw), but not how it differentiates the two players.

* I'm using Ultima Online because it's the best example I can think of. You can insert another old school game of your choice.

You are comparing wrong areas of ability. Your body is created with certain limits. Highjumping requires not only ability to learn and coordinate, but also some specific body structure. You cannot achieve that body structure by pure training, you have to have it in your DNA.

To compare to your gaming scenario, somebody with ADHD will have trouble succeeding in any game that needs lots of concentration (like an MMORPG). He would be simply physicaly unable to do so. No matter how much effort he invests.

Also, patience is a skill :-)

But for the topic at hand, gaming requires problem solving skills. How deep depends on the game. If you have linear quests and guides at each step, less problem solving skill is required since you are basicaly told what to do. A game with no such guides requires lot of problem solving skill as you have to acquire the clues and leads to solve some quests or encounters yourself with much less help from the game.

Combining ingame skills into attack/defense/crafting sequences also requires skill. The more combinations are possible, the more skill is required to weed out the wrong combinations. Of course you could argue that it only takes time to try out all the combinations and evaluate the results, but the skill in this case is to get to the same results without trying all options available.

As to old vs new MMORPGs, you can observe the general trend yourself. Players are given more and more obvious leads and mechanics to guide them to their goals if not faster then at least easier. Most of the variation is actualy more of the same just reskined and renamed (class variance between races in many mmorpgs works like that).

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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If one trading system allows for more complexity and nuance and takes more effort than another (and moreoever you are thus competing in a market of agents all able to handle said complexity) then it could easily be argued that to master one system over the other takes more "skill". Even with the ambiguity of the word.
 
The removal of a centralised exchange is an interesting point. You seem to be saying that that merely means a time grind in order to ship your wares, when it is anything but that. Decentralising trading activity gives rise to all manner of complexities and possibilities that a trader can take advantage of. Market arbitrage, trade route manipulation, trade contracts with haulers and the like. It is these little complexities that allow for a trader to demonstrate their skill over and above the usual level you see in modern mmos.
 
These complexities are missing throughout the mechanics in most modern mmos, from the pvp through to the crafting and the trading. And these mechanics do indeed allow a player to demonstrate more "skills" and thus a greater net total "skill".

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Originally posted by haplo602

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Originally posted by lizardbones
Here's how it sounds to me when someone says, "It took more skill to play {insert old school game here} than these newer, easier games!"

If I wanted to learn how to do a high jump, I could certainly try to do it, but I'm going to fail. I'm reasonably athletic and fairly coordinated, but high jumping just isn't a skill I possess.

If I wanted to play Ultima Online*, I certainly could, with a (probably) high degree of success. If it takes 'skill', I would assume that there are people who could not play Ultima Online* with any degree of success. They would literally fail at being able to play the game. They would have the desire to play, they would think the game is fun...they just wouldn't be able to do it.

I don't think there exists people who cannot play Ultima Online*. They just don't want to. The 'skills' necessary for playing old school game are common. The personality traits needed are not.

There are some possible exceptions to this though. Planning ahead is something you can work on and improve. So is researching information. The more you research, the better you get (for most people). I'm not sure these count since you could easily compensate by being friendly and having other people do the planning and research for you. You can do the same thing in WoW. For that matter, do you really have to be better at those things, or can you just be careful not to run into any angry mobs?

Again, I want to reiterate that I don't think Ultima Online* was as easy to play as a game like World of Warcraft. But I hear the word 'skill' being thrown around without any definitive description of those skills and how they differentiate an 'old school mmorpg player' from a 'new school mmorpg player'. People have described skills needed for playing mmorpg (thank you all, btw), but not how it differentiates the two players.

* I'm using Ultima Online because it's the best example I can think of. You can insert another old school game of your choice.

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You are comparing wrong areas of ability. Your body is created with certain limits. Highjumping requires not only ability to learn and coordinate, but also some specific body structure. You cannot achieve that body structure by pure training, you have to have it in your DNA.
 
To compare to your gaming scenario, somebody with ADHD will have trouble succeeding in any game that needs lots of concentration (like an MMORPG). He would be simply physicaly unable to do so. No matter how much effort he invests.
 
Also, patience is a skill :-)
 
But for the topic at hand, gaming requires problem solving skills. How deep depends on the game. If you have linear quests and guides at each step, less problem solving skill is required since you are basicaly told what to do. A game with no such guides requires lot of problem solving skill as you have to acquire the clues and leads to solve some quests or encounters yourself with much less help from the game.
 
Combining ingame skills into attack/defense/crafting sequences also requires skill. The more combinations are possible, the more skill is required to weed out the wrong combinations. Of course you could argue that it only takes time to try out all the combinations and evaluate the results, but the skill in this case is to get to the same results without trying all options available.
 
As to old vs new MMORPGs, you can observe the general trend yourself. Players are given more and more obvious leads and mechanics to guide them to their goals if not faster then at least easier. Most of the variation is actualy more of the same just reskined and renamed (class variance between races in many mmorpgs works like that).

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You're crazy.

I would definitely say that older MMOs take more skill because there is more risk vs reward and death penalty.

Just look at how many more kids reach endgame when compared to old EQ/UO days . ... they ALL reach end game now in most games because its tons easier. Its so easy now that basic macros can level your character for you in most games. You can even let your 4-yr old kid play your character now adays since there is really almost nothing to lose in most games. FFS in Warhammer you get experience from simply fighting a mob you haven't encountered for the first time or entering a new zone or even being killed by a certain creature or class for the first time . ... died 100 times? Congradulations you are awarded XP! yay!!? So its inevitable that even a 2yr old playing that game will level up.

Patience and skill used to be required to attain many things in the MMORPG market. Now its mostly just patience as your character steadily levels up without risk of losing levels or whatever.

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Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
You're crazy.

I would definitely say that older MMOs take more skill because there is more risk vs reward and death penalty.

Just look at how many more kids reach endgame when compared to old EQ/UO days . ... they ALL reach end game now in most games because its tons easier. Its so easy now that basic macros can level your character for you in most games. You can even let your 4-yr old kid play your character now adays since there is really almost nothing to lose in most games. FFS in Warhammer you get experience from simply fighting a mob you haven't encountered for the first time or entering a new zone or even being killed by a certain creature or class for the first time . ... died 100 times? Congradulations you are awarded XP! yay!!? So its inevitable that even a 2yr old playing that game will level up.

Patience and skill used to be required to attain many things in the MMORPG market. Now its mostly just patience as your character steadily levels up without risk of losing levels or whatever.

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But your character isn't punished for being a bad player anymore in most games. A bad player in EQ for example would actually lose levels instead of gain them if dying a lot and it used to happen to regular players who just happen to have a bad day. Hell in some parts of it, just one fail group member could mess it up so that everyone in the group loses XP. I would definitely call that harder because its harder for people who are generally bad or even just occasionally mess up. It took more skill to do many things in the game. Sometimes you needed a certain class to play a certain role for the party through a part of it. Sometimes you died in a dungeon so far down that it set you back several days since sometimes corpses were hard to recover.

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

But your character isn't punished for being a bad player anymore in most games.

Punishing players is a good model for masochists, but not so good for the bottom line.

I guess you could make an argument that designing for higher mass appeal is what got us into this mess; and even correctly to some degree.  But despite being one of the older vets on this board, I'd still hesitate to demand that devs reduce their income voluntarily--because they won't.  Their bosses and shareholders won't let them.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

But your character isn't punished for being a bad player anymore in most games.

Punishing players is a good model for masochists, but not so good for the bottom line.

Doesn't change the fact that a game that punishes players for losing will be more difficult for the players overall. Oldschool games were harder for kids, casual gamers, unexperienced gamers, etc than MMORPGs you find today. Now every type of player can be found in most games because they have been changed to please the masses.

C'mon now. Think of a person trying out an MMO for the first time. How much harder would oldschool games be? Much harder. Even with just how the UI, interface, and tutorials were with everything else put aside, you can still call them harder.

Originally posted by lizardbones

This idea comes up periodically: "Older MMORPG Take More Skill Than Newer MMORPG". I am usually one of the first people to say, "No, that's not skill, it's patience."

Patience and cooperation.  Not much of that in these days of "OMFGmustgettoendgame" MMOs.

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Now every type of player can be found in most games because they have been changed to please the masses.

Of course.  Companies rarely vote for less money.

"Old School" MMORPGS took more skill then new Modern MMOs for one simple reason.

PROBLEM SOLVING.  

Todays MMOs have no problem solving, everything is layed out in front of you and the only "Skill" you need is reading and understanding what your reading.   If you have those skills you can successed in the New MMO games.

Older MMOs required players to have problem solving skills, quest were not layed out or shown on a map, you had to figure it out.  Players had to solve puzzles to open doors or advance past certain places.

Perfect Example is in EQ there was a zone that required the player to gather a key to unlock the door to each level, the problem was that there were spots you could fall all the way to the bottom floor and now your stuck without the keys to get out.  3 keyed doors requiring 3 different keys from 3 different mobs on 3 different floors (Befallen for those that know and yes its a low level place)

Another great example was the VT key, not many people got keyed for candyland because it was a long proccess that required luck and camping rare spawns.  The VT key required 10 parts, 3 parts were raid only drops.  One of the raid only drops required players to have "bane" weapons which were the only weapons that could hurt the raid boss, my guild learned the hard way that the mob needed these certain "bane" weapons.  (EMP raid boss for those that know EQ).

You simply do not see these type of problems in new games, new games have all the steps you need to finish your mission/quest right in front of you too read.  Older games required players to figure it out by the clues in the quest.  

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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If one trading system allows for more complexity and nuance and takes more effort than another (and moreoever you are thus competing in a market of agents all able to handle said complexity) then it could easily be argued that to master one system over the other takes more "skill". Even with the ambiguity of the word.
 
The removal of a centralised exchange is an interesting point. You seem to be saying that that merely means a time grind in order to ship your wares, when it is anything but that. Decentralising trading activity gives rise to all manner of complexities and possibilities that a trader can take advantage of. Market arbitrage, trade route manipulation, trade contracts with haulers and the like. It is these little complexities that allow for a trader to demonstrate their skill over and above the usual level you see in modern mmos.
 
These complexities are missing throughout the mechanics in most modern mmos, from the pvp through to the crafting and the trading. And these mechanics do indeed allow a player to demonstrate more "skills" and thus a greater net total "skill".

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It sounds like you're talking about Eve, which has a far more complex economic system than pretty much any old school mmorpg. In your example, that would indeed allow someone with more planning and logistics become more successful and demonstrate more skill. If you allowed individuals to be the driving power. In Eve and in any system where it's possible to have trading partners, trade routes, etc., large groups will dominate. Individual skill is minimized in favor of the group's numbers.
 

That still requires planning, team work and individual knowledge of the game which is a skill.  Yes in Eve working as a group will make you more successful then a solo player (which is a good thing in my opinion).