Originally posted by VirusDancer

Opportunity for Low SP Players:  Target

Yes, there are many opportunities for Low SP Players... :)

 

guess the learning curve is too steep for you then.

I am in EVE since beta, and when playing on a noob alt char I even make good solo kills and make myself useful in large fleets with a 2M sp character against ppl that are using their 100M+ sp characters.

It's about knowledge, people don't want to take the effort to learn the game, they want it instant aka spoonfed and want to be maxed out in less then a week. (fmr/current WOW player I guess?)

Originally posted by Muke

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Opportunity for Low SP Players:  Target

Yes, there are many opportunities for Low SP Players... :)

 

guess the learning curve is too steep for you then.

I am in EVE since beta, and when playing on a noob alt char I even make good solo kills and make myself useful in large fleets with a 2M sp character against ppl that are using their 100M+ sp characters.

It's about knowledge, people don't want to take the effort to learn the game, they want it instant aka spoonfed and want to be maxed out in less then a week. (fmr/current WOW player I guess?)

 

 

You explaination is invalid. You are an experienced player playing with a 2m skillpoint alt. There is a big difference between you, and an actual real 2m skill point new player. Keep that in mind.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by gimmesome

Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.  

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That's it.

You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.

Ok let me break out my crayons.

I have played EVE long enough to know what you're saying, and what you're saying is not wrong.  There is plenty to "do" for new players.  The same as there's plenty to "do" in the accounting department.        After so many years in EVE, I just decided that all the things to "do" didn't really turn out to be enjoyable ways to spend my time.     I know this is preference and not a fact for everyone.    I'm just not going to sit back and tell a new player that EVE is anything more than it really is.      all the 'stuff to do' that is not combat related appeals to a very small crowd, and even some of that crowd can't find long term enjoyment from those tasks.    

The image of EVE that I see being portrayed to new players from the EVE community is this beautiful blossoming basket of Sci-Fi goodness, full of thrills, excitement, explosions, epic battles, active friendly community, and massive exploration possibilities.

The image of EVE that I see being portrayed to new players from EVE haters is: "it's a spreadsheet on top of pretty graphics."

I think both these descriptions are not the best to give to a new player, and in no real way prepare them for what the game really is.     

EVE is not as much of a Game as it is a sci-fi simulation of a fictional war in space, right down to the details of the militaristic approach to combat, espionage, economics, politics, and marketting.    The actual Battles between players are few and far betwen "UNLESS".      The UNLESS part is highly variable, but still a point to be taken into consideration for the new player that might be expecting constant excitement/fulfillment.      It is simply not a videogame, regardless of the genre it's in, and the way it's described by gaming press that played it for all of 1 week and then writes reviews.        It's a long winded experience that no other videogame can provide, yet, in it's current form, it lacks the "game" portion of 'videogame"

There's not much anyone can say to get a new player to truely understand anything about EVE without them seeing and "playing" for themselves.       I hate to bring it to numbers, because it annoys me when other people do it, but, EVE is well advertised, and there's constant hype and criticism being tossed around over it, for many years now, and there are millions of sci-fi fans in the world that would love a great scifi VIDEOGAME with the depth and sandboxy-ness of EVE, but they aren't playing EVE.    For a good reason.     It's just "too hard" to find fun.    It exists, but it's just not easy to find.    No game should keep fun so far out of reach.    No game. period.

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Originally posted by gimmesome

I know this is preference and not a fact for everyone. I'm just not going to sit back and tell a new player that EVE is anything more than it really is.

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Yet, you present this preference as 'facts' and 'reality'...

Originally posted by idgarad

Originally posted by Muke

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Opportunity for Low SP Players:  Target

Yes, there are many opportunities for Low SP Players... :)

 

guess the learning curve is too steep for you then.

I am in EVE since beta, and when playing on a noob alt char I even make good solo kills and make myself useful in large fleets with a 2M sp character against ppl that are using their 100M+ sp characters.

It's about knowledge, people don't want to take the effort to learn the game, they want it instant aka spoonfed and want to be maxed out in less then a week. (fmr/current WOW player I guess?)

 

 

You explaination is invalid. You are an experienced player playing with a 2m skillpoint alt. There is a big difference between you, and an actual real 2m skill point new player. Keep that in mind.

It was curious that he stated he had played since beta (circa 2002), but created a 2 mil SP alt and treated it as if it were his first toon.  It makes no sense at all.

He states it is about knowledge - that knowledge that was gained from playng the game for many years.  A player in their first week is not going to have that knowledge - which was the part of what Gimme was stating.

In my first week playing, I formed my own corp.  Within the first month, I had around six or so offices spread out in various areas of space.  I NPC traded - tobacco, oxygen, garbage, etc.  I was making awesome profits on my trips.  I also spent time flying around the universe - played some with the Can-Warp to the EVE Gate.  I flew out and checked out many of the monuments - kind of like going on a sightseeing tour.  At the time, the game rarely hit 12k players at peak.  12k at peak?  Yes, that is correct.  It was a long time ago.

There was not the constant scam spam.  There were not 20-30 pirates camping the common 5->4 gates on the lowsec side.  There were not the megacorp market wars.

It was a different game.

An actual new player then?  An actual new player now?

I still find it funny that he is equating his many years of knowledge and playing an alt to a brand new player.

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by gimmesome

Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.  

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That's it.

You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.

   It's just "too hard" to find fun.    It exists, but it's just not easy to find.    No game should keep fun so far out of reach.    No game. period.

Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there.  The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game.  In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by gimmesome

Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.  

---

 

That's it.

You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.

   It's just "too hard" to find fun.    It exists, but it's just not easy to find.    No game should keep fun so far out of reach.    No game. period.

Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there.  The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game.  In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.

 

 

It's a niche market that is being devoured by simple inflation, roughly, at minimum 430 accounts every month. They didn't lay off 20% of the staff because numbers are looking good. If the margin was still there they could have easily floated the staff until WoD launched.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by gimmesome

Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.  

---

 

That's it.

You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.

   It's just "too hard" to find fun.    It exists, but it's just not easy to find.    No game should keep fun so far out of reach.    No game. period.

Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there.  The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game.  In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.

 

I would disagree about nothing else like it out there.  While Perpetuum is not as advanced in some areas as EVE, it is also not plagued with many of the issues that EVE has.

It is often called an EVE clone.  For anybody that has played EVE, I believe that if you download the game and play the 15 day trial - that from the start, it looks and feels like EVE.  You're not flying through space - you're in a mech running across the ground.

Combat - mining - manufacturing - market - etc, etc, etc - it's there.

It's funny how much it looks and feels like EVE, one could almost think that CCP had made the game.

Originally posted by idgarad

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by gimmesome

Spending a month training to fly a tiny paper machet ship that's only job is to take orders from someone else isn't reasonable.  

---

 

That's it.

You are stuck in incorrect assumptions that you have to, you don't. You can do plenty of other things instead.

   It's just "too hard" to find fun.    It exists, but it's just not easy to find.    No game should keep fun so far out of reach.    No game. period.

Thing is you are mistaken, it is fun for new players, the new players who finally get over that initial hurdle and enjoy exactly the complexity that the game has to offer - nothing else like it out there.  The complexity isn't 'hard', it just needs patience to get a feel for the heartbeat of the game.  In fact ccp should continue to layer complexity over complexity as the years go on, its a niche market that has a good player base that are likely to be loyal.

 

 

It's a niche market that is being devoured by simple inflation, roughly, at minimum 430 accounts every month. They didn't lay off 20% of the staff because numbers are looking good. If the margin was still there they could have easily floated the staff until WoD launched.

That has nothing to do with eve, the whole western economy is on the edge of a major rebalancing event.  Niche products have niche costs and optionally niche profits, its all relative.

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Originally posted by Yalexy
Don't listen to gimmesome. He's full of **** apparently not understanding the very nature of the EvE-systems.
There's no minimum requirements to enjoy EvE Online, this is a misconception of people who apparently never played EvE Online for more then two days, whining that they couldn't fly the biggest ship withing this time.
Learning the mechanics of EvE is the key to having fun in the game, and that starts with the knowledge of what to do with a Rifter and a few selected skills after some 3 weeks of training and listening to good advices from people.
The longer you play, the bigger ships you'll be able to fly, but the bigger ships don't offer any more fun over the small ones, especially in those epic fights, where big ships do nothing but cycling their guns. There's much more fun to have flying a pesky frigate or some two month into the game an interceptor, where you actually have to show some playerskills.
Oh and by the way.... I've got 90 Mil SP so far, and I've not trained a single capital ship skill, but only all the other ships, especially the frigate- and cruiser-sized ships.

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Originally posted by Gardavsshade

 

Gimmesome is full of it?
Wrong. He's spot on mate.
I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about.
Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE.
Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of.
It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.

 

Yep.  That's all I was getting at...       I think it is a bit excessive to say I'm full of it.   I didn't lie.    

Besides, so what if there's the rare exception to the rule.    I don't think that benefits the new player.    "Well, I've been playing for this long, and i've got 90 mill SP, and I have a great time in frigates, and never bothered with capital ships"   <-- yeah, bravo dude.     That's a great impression to give to a new player.      

JOIN EVE AND AFTER 4 YEARS OF PLAYTIME/TRAINING, YOU WILL STILL BE IN THE SAME SHIP YOU STARTED IN - otherwise, use your skillpoints and ISK to get into cap ships, and then take orders from other players on what to do with your cap ship and when you can fly it....     fun.

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

 

Gimmesome is full of it?
Wrong. He's spot on mate.
I played EvE for subscribed time over 2 1/2 years between 2004 and 2008. I forgot about more changes during that time and since than most players even know about.
Gimmesome has a valid point when he/she says that to succeed in EvE requires a substantial time investment... and even when you invest the time if you are not a top notch Player you will still be a slave, a tool, of the big boys. That IS EvE.
Sure you can indeed have fun in a few days time training in a Rifter, I usually went Minmatar and was proud of it, but that is not the same thing that gimmesome is speaking of.
It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.

 

Yep.  That's all I was getting at...       I think it is a bit excessive to say I'm full of it.   I didn't lie.    

 

Besides, so what if there's the rare exception to the rule.    I don't think that benefits the new player.    "Well, I've been playing for this long, and i've got 90 mill SP, and I have a great time in frigates, and never bothered with capital ships"   <-- yeah, bravo dude.     That's a great impression to give to a new player.      

JOIN EVE AND AFTER 4 YEARS OF PLAYTIME/TRAINING, YOU WILL STILL BE IN THE SAME SHIP YOU STARTED IN - otherwise, use your skillpoints and ISK to get into cap ships, and then take orders from other players on what to do with your cap ship and when you can fly it....     fun.

The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though.  There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers.  I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships.  What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.

Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.

I might add that all the years I played EVE, I noticed more activity in EVE forums than in the actual game.  

EVE is pretty much, the perfect theory crafter's haven.     More fun to talk about than to play.   

Originally posted by ZeroByteDNA

 

The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though.  There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers.  I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships.  What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.

Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.

Can't say i disagree.     But still, in terms of actual combat itself, after agression has triggered, I don't feel very much that skills have a damn thing to do about it.    Common sense? sure.    But really, it comes down to who knows what the other guy(s) have fitted on their ship, and who has more ships.       I've even done the 1v1 bs a bunch of times and it's just dumb.   

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by ZeroByteDNA

 

The 4 year player in a Rifter will destroy the 4 day player in the Rifter though.  There are people that play for an extended period of time and still like to fly frigs or even cruisers.  I definitely prefer battlecruisers/cruisers over batttleships.  What I eventually could do in a BC was a world of difference compared to when I first got into them.

Even with the comment about frigates - a high SP player in an AF or 'ceptor can destroy lower SP players flying larger ships.

Can't say i disagree.     But still, in terms of actual combat itself, after agression has triggered, I don't feel very much that skills have a damn thing to do about it.    Common sense? sure.    But really, it comes down to who knows what the other guy(s) have fitted on their ship, and who has more ships.       I've even done the 1v1 bs a bunch of times and it's just dumb.   

No, EVE is not a twitch game.  Twitch is not the end all discussion of skill.  It is just one of the subsets of skill.

• Skill
  • Twitch
  • Knowledge
  • Strategy
  • etc, etc, etc, etc.

Originally posted by ZeroByteDNA

Say we go with the real world equivalent...a naval frigate is not going to be zipping around like a jet ski.

Real world equivalent isn't a naval vessel, it would be the space shuttle, more or less.   

Can't just ignore the fact that EVE's space mechanics are terrible to begin with.   Yes, resemblant to Naval style vessels, but, why is that ok to overlook?         If this was "Navy Battles Online" or something, fine, but it's not.  It's supposed to be space in a zero grav non-friction environment.       

And, I don't automatically mean twitch-based when I say skill.    But, they did impliment some control over the ship and modules, so it's only fair to assume that actually controlling them should vary between players.    lkdsalkbdsalfkabsflhba

i'm bored.    nevermind.     I know what EVE is, and you do too.      Gunna stop watching this thread now, because the game is hopeless, and all it's bleeding subs are the result of that.

(no, there is not a healthy level of growth.   1 dude buying 10 copies and multiboxing means absolutely jack-shit.)

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Originally posted by Gardavsshade

It's better that Players know they will need to invest more time and headache in EvE than almost any other MMO, but the rewards can potentially be awesome. EvE is not for the faint of heart or the weak in commitment.

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You assume that unless you are running 0.0 territorial warfare and spent your life doing so, nothing else in EVE is fun and there is no other way to play and enjoy the game. That's not true.

EVE as a game does not require any more time investment or commitment than other games. What does though, is to some extent 0.0 territorial warfare and that is only one thing on the list of what you can do in EVE Online.

Your personal preference and bias do not make facts nor true.

I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char." 

Well...  yeah.  So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char.  Funny how that works.  Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time.  Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship.  60m skillpoints wasted?  Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.

GL, HF, FlySafe.

Originally posted by kovah

I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char." 

Well...  yeah.  So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char.  Funny how that works.  Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time.  Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship.  60m skillpoints wasted?  Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.

GL, HF, FlySafe.

 

Frig vs. Frig.

The 4 day character vs. the 4 year character.

Look at what the 4 day character will be able to fit compared to the 4 year character.

Look at how well the 4 day character will be able to use what he fits compared to the 4 year character - even if you fit both Frigs so the 4 day can fly it, the 4 year will fly it better.

It is a skill based game where skills develop over time.

At some point, yes - the younger character will cap all the skills for a T1 Frig.  He's finally caught up to the older character, eh?  The older character shows up in an AF.  Oopsie for the younger character.  Once again though, that younger character will cap all the AF skills.  Next ship?  Again and again.

That is in relation to that pure 1v1.  And on that point, I agree with Gimme.  Pretty much everybody has to agree on that - because that is how it is.

But this is EVE we're talking about.

So what does the newer player do?  Hell, he shows up with friends and WTFpwns the older player.

Course, the older player is likely to have more friends.  He may hunt down the newer player, his friends, and anybody that helps...until they all quit or reroll into anonymity.

EVE definitely is not as simple as that 1 v 1 example - but SP works the way SP works.

For the most part, I disagree with most of what Gimme stated - fun is very subjective, after all...

...but you can't compare EVE with a level 15 vs. level 80/85 scenario.  The 15 can catch up to the 80/85.  There is a level cap.

There is not a cap in EVE.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by kovah

I had to chuckle at the comment (paraphrased) "The 4 hour char will get owned by the 4 year char." 

Well...  yeah.  So does the level 15 char vs the level 80 char.  Funny how that works.  Difference is, with the game being bashed you can train up your frig skills and be on par with other 4 year chars in a very short time.  Sure, you won't be in Caps anytime soon but hell, I've been playing EvE since 2006 and STILL can't fly anything bigger than a Battleship.  60m skillpoints wasted?  Nope, just chose to specialize, thx.

GL, HF, FlySafe.

 

Frig vs. Frig.

The 4 day character vs. the 4 year character.

Look at what the 4 day character will be able to fit compared to the 4 year character.

Look at how well the 4 day character will be able to use what he fits compared to the 4 year character - even if you fit both Frigs so the 4 day can fly it, the 4 year will fly it better.

It is a skill based game where skills develop over time.

At some point, yes - the younger character will cap all the skills for a T1 Frig.  He's finally caught up to the older character, eh?  The older character shows up in an AF.  Oopsie for the younger character.  Once again though, that younger character will cap all the AF skills.  Next ship?  Again and again.

That is in relation to that pure 1v1.  And on that point, I agree with Gimme.  Pretty much everybody has to agree on that - because that is how it is.

But this is EVE we're talking about.

So what does the newer player do?  Hell, he shows up with friends and WTFpwns the older player.

Course, the older player is likely to have more friends.  He may hunt down the newer player, his friends, and anybody that helps...until they all quit or reroll into anonymity.

EVE definitely is not as simple as that 1 v 1 example - but SP works the way SP works.

For the most part, I disagree with most of what Gimme stated - fun is very subjective, after all...

...but you can't compare EVE with a level 15 vs. level 80/85 scenario.  The 15 can catch up to the 80/85.  There is a level cap.

There is not a cap in EVE.

Skillpoints aren't levels. There are also a finite number of skills that can apply to a ship, and the skills themselves are capped. Therefore one can be considered "level capped" in a given ship; it's possible to reach a point where you simply can't get any better.

Not to mention the strongly diminishing returns on specialisation, which means that very few EVE players go all the way to "level 85" in any ship.