Originally posted by FlawSGI

 

 Maybe since you can level to cap in the mists that IT is the normal game world to some and the other one is the instanced zone with pve content.  The argument can go either way and playing semantics with what one considders open world PvP isn't the way to go about the discussion? I am sure you can argue what your interpretation of world PvP vs instanced BG's are and others can give a different perspective. Does that make either of you wrong?

I think by the general idea of open wold PvP that it's just a trolling ground for those that lack the skill to fight on even playing field... you know like no ganking and both parties knowing there is a fight. But to each his own at least in the Mists I'll know someone aims to best me and not play the coward by attacking when I am trying to get my exp on.

I'm a GW2 fanboy and even I dont think that the mists are open world.  Open world PvP is what WoW had back in Vanilla.  Open world pvp is pvp anywhere anytime.  Darkfall is open world pvp central.  If the mists are the only place you can pvp at then it is not open world pvp.  It doesnt matter if you can level there or not.  

Age of Conan has open world PvP.  GW2 does not.  I'll still enjoy the mists plenty either way.

The tears of gankers and griefers can cure cancer. Anet is trying to cure cancer.

Originally posted by heavyhebrew

The tears of gankers and griefers can cure cancer. Anet is trying to cure cancer.

While I dont mind this too much, I think there is probably a better way to do solve the ganker/griefer problem. Though, I think this is the best way for GW2 due to its one factions system and you fight other servers instead of other factions.

But in multi-faction games there are certainly better ways to solve the ganking/griefing problem then just getting rid of open world pvp completly.

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by heavyhebrew

The tears of gankers and griefers can cure cancer. Anet is trying to cure cancer.

While I dont mind this too much, I think there is probably a better way to do solve the ganker/griefer problem. Though, I think this is the best way for GW2 due to its one factions system and you fight other servers instead of other factions.

But in multi-faction games there are certainly better ways to solve the ganking/griefing problem then just getting rid of open world pvp completly.

They don't want griefing in the PvE world, not just PvP griefing, but they are trying to eliminate other forms of griefing as well. Open World PvP just doesn't mesh with the PvE game design.

The Mists are four full zones in size and contains PvE content and Dynamic Events, in addition to the World vs. World specific content. Although there will be major strategic points likely to attract mass RvR(vR) combat, the mists should be big enough to allow people to enjoy the "hunter vs. hunted" form of PvP. Since you can level all the way to 80 and gain appropriate loot as well with in World vs. World vs. World, people who enjoy Open World PvP will get a similar experience in the Mists, it will just be concentrated into four zones where everyone is a consentual participant in any PVP that takes place there.

The fact that everyone is sidekicked to level 80, while keeping their skill unlocks and armor/weapons, may ruin some of the "fun" for people who feel that world PvP is about ganking lowbies. However, I think most true PvP fans will relish a system that is more about skill than level/gear. (Higher level, better geared players will still have an advantage, but the power curve is much shallower than other games. It's also possible that you may not be able to tell the true level of opponents, which will increase the risk and thrill for players).

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by FlawSGI

 

 Maybe since you can level to cap in the mists that IT is the normal game world to some and the other one is the instanced zone with pve content.  The argument can go either way and playing semantics with what one considders open world PvP isn't the way to go about the discussion? I am sure you can argue what your interpretation of world PvP vs instanced BG's are and others can give a different perspective. Does that make either of you wrong?

I think by the general idea of open wold PvP that it's just a trolling ground for those that lack the skill to fight on even playing field... you know like no ganking and both parties knowing there is a fight. But to each his own at least in the Mists I'll know someone aims to best me and not play the coward by attacking when I am trying to get my exp on.

I'm a GW2 fanboy and even I dont think that the mists are open world.  Open world PvP is what WoW had back in Vanilla.  Open world pvp is pvp anywhere anytime.  Darkfall is open world pvp central.  If the mists are the only place you can pvp at then it is not open world pvp.  It doesnt matter if you can level there or not.  

Age of Conan has open world PvP.  GW2 does not.  I'll still enjoy the mists plenty either way.

This only existed in a WoW PvP server.  Same is true for WAR.  The majority of WAR servers were PvE servers in which you were auto unflagged as soon as you left an RvR lake.

What you want is a PvP server.  

By your definition EvE is not open world PvP, yet Eve has far more world PvP than most any other game.

You guys' are making a  completely useless distinction when you try to redefine what open world PvP is.   It means non-structured pvp in a large zone.  Beyond that you are starting to get into server set rules NOT games.

Originally posted by marinrider

Originally posted by FlawSGI

 

 Maybe since you can level to cap in the mists that IT is the normal game world to some and the other one is the instanced zone with pve content.  The argument can go either way and playing semantics with what one considders open world PvP isn't the way to go about the discussion? I am sure you can argue what your interpretation of world PvP vs instanced BG's are and others can give a different perspective. Does that make either of you wrong?

I think by the general idea of open wold PvP that it's just a trolling ground for those that lack the skill to fight on even playing field... you know like no ganking and both parties knowing there is a fight. But to each his own at least in the Mists I'll know someone aims to best me and not play the coward by attacking when I am trying to get my exp on.

I'm a GW2 fanboy and even I dont think that the mists are open world.  Open world PvP is what WoW had back in Vanilla.  Open world pvp is pvp anywhere anytime.  Darkfall is open world pvp central.  If the mists are the only place you can pvp at then it is not open world pvp.  It doesnt matter if you can level there or not.  

Age of Conan has open world PvP.  GW2 does not.  I'll still enjoy the mists plenty either way.

 Lol. I was in no way arguing that Mists were open world. I was only pointing out how someone could see it as such and how if thats their opinion it doesn't make them wrong, only that their understanding of what open world pvp means vs a BG. My idea of what open world PvP means is basically there isn't a seperate section from PvE and PvP. Anyplace anytime as well.

But I can see why some would think the mists are a large enough area and the fact that you can level there to call that open world as well. I don't share this opinion but I won't bash others if they perceive it this way.  I was only playing the mediator.

---

Originally posted by fiontar
<snip>...The fact that everyone is sidekicked to level 80, while keeping their skill unlocks and armor/weapons, may ruin some of the "fun" for people who feel that world PvP is about ganking lowbies. However, I think most true PvP fans will relish a system that is more about skill than level/gear. (Higher level, better geared players will still have an advantage, but the power curve is much shallower than other games. It's also possible that you may not be able to tell the true level of opponents, which will increase the risk and thrill for players).

---

Beyond ganking, this design has other issues that concern me. When you have to leave PvE to go play world PvP, it makes you wonder what content you're missing. Did you miss any cool zones, dungeons, events? Maybe it's dumb to think this when you're having fun, but I dont like to feel like I've missed out on stuff.

On the other hand, if you go back and forth between the Mists and PvE trying not to skip content, does that become inconvenient?

I dunno.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

[quote]Originally posted by fiontar
...The fact that everyone is sidekicked to level 80, while keeping their skill unlocks and armor/weapons, may ruin some of the "fun" for people who feel that world PvP is about ganking lowbies. However, I think most true PvP fans will relish a system that is more about skill than level/gear. (Higher level, better geared players will still have an advantage, but the power curve is much shallower than other games. It's also possible that you may not be able to tell the true level of opponents, which will increase the risk and thrill for players).
[/b][/quote]

Beyond ganking, this design has other issues that concern me. When you have to leave PvE to go play world PvP, it makes you wonder what content you're missing. Did you miss any cool zones, dungeons, events? Maybe it's dumb to think this when you're having fun, but I dont like to feel like I've missed out on stuff.

On the other hand, if you go back and forth between the Mists and PvE trying not to skip content, does that become inconvenient?

I dunno.

Level scaling. If you feel like you missed something then you can go back and do it. Besides, there isn't any content in GW2 that you absolutely have to do other than the beginning tutorial.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

Beyond ganking, this design has other issues that concern me. When you have to leave PvE to go play world PvP, it makes you wonder what content you're missing. Did you miss any cool zones, dungeons, events? Maybe it's dumb to think this when you're having fun, but I dont like to feel like I've missed out on stuff.

On the other hand, if you go back and forth between the Mists and PvE trying not to skip content, does that become inconvenient?

I dunno.

There's also 5 starting zones, because of the races.  That's like worrying you're missing 4 other starting experiences.

Since you can also do WvW, I guess that's really sort of 6 starting zones, huh?

Anyway, as is pointed out by me earlier, and by another person more recently, since there is reverse sidekicking everywhere, you can do any content you 'passed up' without penalty.

... and personal story is at the level you are as a player.  They even said you could wait until level 80, then do all your personal story at once in a huge rush.  :P

So take a deep breath!  Relax!  Nothing is 'going away' because you pass it up. :)  Just do whatever appeals at the time.

The thing you have to remember is that we're talking about the works of Anet.  This is the greatest development team ever!  I mean just look at the hype this game has, and then after you've looked, take another look! It's the greatest of the great!  They are already debating which of the Wonders of the World are going to be dropped because they need to make room for GW2! Soon presidents will be voted in by how impressive their GW2 characters are!  Chuck Norris jokes are having to be rewritten to title Anet instead!  There is no doubt, only the wait for the world to become a better place.

It's always difficult to say if something is going to be great before anyone has a chance to really try it out, but I myself am really looking forward to trying the WvW in GW2.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

---

Originally posted by fiontar
...The fact that everyone is sidekicked to level 80, while keeping their skill unlocks and armor/weapons, may ruin some of the "fun" for people who feel that world PvP is about ganking lowbies. However, I think most true PvP fans will relish a system that is more about skill than level/gear. (Higher level, better geared players will still have an advantage, but the power curve is much shallower than other games. It's also possible that you may not be able to tell the true level of opponents, which will increase the risk and thrill for players).

---

 

Beyond ganking, this design has other issues that concern me. When you have to leave PvE to go play world PvP, it makes you wonder what content you're missing. Did you miss any cool zones, dungeons, events? Maybe it's dumb to think this when you're having fun, but I dont like to feel like I've missed out on stuff.

On the other hand, if you go back and forth between the Mists and PvE trying not to skip content, does that become inconvenient?

I dunno.

I'd rather a game with a lot of leveling redundancy and freedom of choice on how I want to level, vs. one that forces me to follow a leveling path that is barely sufficient to level one to the cap with out forced grinding. The way DEs work, you are always going to be "missing" a lot of PVE content anyway, because for every DE Link you experience while leveling in a zone, there may be a dozen of more you didn't experience on any particular run through.

Besides, the game will scale your level down for lower level PvE content, while awarding you XP and loot based on your actual level. So, if there is some cool stuff you feel you missed while gaining some levels in World vs. World, you can always go back and experience it, even if you "outleveled it".

People who play alts will love the way the game is designed, because each time a character is leveled up, there will be a lot of content they didn't see the last time through. People who don't play alts, but prefer to stick with one primary character, can take advantage of the side-kick down system to go and explore stuff they missed while leveling.

If they are really commited to just a single character, but do care about experiencing as much game content as possible, GW2 allows them to do so in a uniquely meaningful way. I don't know of any other MMO that let's you meaningfully interact with content you've outleveled. In fact, someone who wanted to experience every chain of every Dynamic Event in the game would have a lot to occupy their time with. It's possible they could play a zone for a few hours each day for weeks before they would be able to catch all the links up and down each chain, maybe even longer trying to catch certain Events that require a particular confluence of event outcomes to trigger. With 25 PVE game zones and 6 cities, a single character completionist would have quite an epic quest on their hands! (Espescially since they can't rely on a high level gap to allow them to one shot their way through lower level content).

Just to clear it up, GW2 most definitely doesn't have open world pvp. What it has is Daoc Frontier.. Which i assume is just 1 zone, anyhow it'll be just like daoc to a degree except i am sure it's instanced, whereis originally The Daoc frontier wasn't instanced but near damn if impossible to get into the factions homeland, in fact it was impossible as far as i remember. Anyhow, after they changed it to instanced it wasn't  possible,So the mists is actually a daoc frontier involving "FACTION PVP" or i guess we'll call it " Server vs server vs server" pvp. If i am incorrect with my information let me know, That being said. Faction pvp does work, but only if there is an odd amount of factions. 2 as you see in War,wow etc.. failed

---

Originally posted by will75
Just to clear it up, GW2 most definitely doesn't have open world pvp. What it has is Daoc Frontier.. Which i assume is just 1 zone, anyhow it'll be just like daoc to a degree except i am sure it's instanced, whereis originally The Daoc frontier wasn't instanced but near damn if impossible to get into the factions homeland, in fact it was impossible as far as i remember. Anyhow, after they changed it to instanced it wasn't  possible,So the mists is actually a daoc frontier involving "FACTION PVP" or i guess we'll call it " Server vs server vs server" pvp. If i am incorrect with my information let me know, That being said. Faction pvp does work, but only if there is an odd amount of factions. 2 as you see in War,wow etc.. failed

---

The WvWvW area is separate from the PvE world, but it is NOT instanced (no multiple copies, just one area shared by everyone on three servers). If they were to instance it, it would only be at an extremely high population...like thousands of players or something. It is a huge, open zone with three additional "home" zones, one for each of the servers participating...so four zones all together. It is completely "open world", in that all players will share the same space and be free to level their characters, gather loot, etc... it's just separate from the PvE world.

It's not factions, it's entire servers (any number of players from each server, so it could be 500 vs 900 vs 1000 for all we know) going against each other for a two-week-long battle with castles and keeps to destroy, rebuilt, defend, attack... seige weapons...dynamic events taking place, and more. The winning server after two weeks gets rewards for their whole server.

Originally posted by Fozzik

 

---

Originally posted by will75
Just to clear it up, GW2 most definitely doesn't have open world pvp. What it has is Daoc Frontier.. Which i assume is just 1 zone, anyhow it'll be just like daoc to a degree except i am sure it's instanced, whereis originally The Daoc frontier wasn't instanced but near damn if impossible to get into the factions homeland, in fact it was impossible as far as i remember. Anyhow, after they changed it to instanced it wasn't  possible,So the mists is actually a daoc frontier involving "FACTION PVP" or i guess we'll call it " Server vs server vs server" pvp. If i am incorrect with my information let me know, That being said. Faction pvp does work, but only if there is an odd amount of factions. 2 as you see in War,wow etc.. failed

---

 

 

The WvWvW area is separate from the PvE world, but it is NOT instanced (no multiple copies, just one area shared by everyone on three servers). If they were to instance it, it would only be at an extremely high population...like thousands of players or something. It is a huge, open zone with three additional "home" zones, one for each of the servers participating...so four zones all together. It is completely "open world", in that all players will share the same space and be free to level their characters, gather loot, etc... it's just separate from the PvE world.

It's not factions, it's entire servers (any number of players from each server, so it could be 500 vs 900 vs 1000 for all we know) going against each other for a two-week-long battle with castles and keeps to destroy, rebuilt, defend, attack... seige weapons...dynamic events taking place, and more. The winning server after two weeks gets rewards for their whole server.

Essentially factions, i was referencing as being the servers or world. Obviously they aren't factions, but regardless they are meaning the same thing.

So essentially the mists are in daoc terms the home areas eg.. yggdra or uppland and they all connect to the center pvp area as you said " Agramon " 

Basically this takes daocs original idea, although before it was many zones inside of zones eg... odins gate etc.. And makes it into one for each world, and then in the center is agramon, the daoc center island they came out with,

Probably confused people.

I think everyone here is missing one large point here with GW2 mists.. its not just abotu castles.. Iits not just about running to a keep and taking it when its 'vulnerable' and killing the boss and you win!!

Instead of making a wall post ill just round off some the the different fetures in WvWvW

- There are many different types of objectives, Including

  Castles, Towns, Mines, Lumber mills, Resourse villages (like fishing) and so on for stationary objectives, Not to mention caravans..

 - There are many events throught WvWvW that range from things you need multiple groups of people, to just the solo fighter.

 - When you take a keep, town or whatever, you need to rebuild!!

     Thats right guys!! you knock out that wall or door or accidently wack a tower with a treb it doesnt just raise back up to prestine condtion once the 'siege' is over! You need resorces! Which require you to own the ore mines and mills! so that  caravans can be sent with resorces to your servers newly taken objective to fortify against attackers.

  - When you enter the mists, you are sidekicked up to 80,

     obviously a natural level 80 is stronger than a level 20 sidekicked up, but that level 20 sidekick can still kill the level 80 with enough skill.

   - Server insentive!

  Again, just another fluff item making pvp worth while for even the most casual player! You get server rewards depending how how well youand your server doing in the mists that week (or is it 2 now?). This can include increased loot quality for dynamic events, to bonus exp, and so on.. these are things that the pve players will want, so they may just come help!

  - 3 server pit up against each other

   Well.. this one is easy, one of the biggest flaws in two faction games is that if one faction has a bad month.. the other faction becomes over dominant and people start quitting due to low morale and looking for greener pastures. And to add an extra step to the whole situation, The servers your server is put up against change! So your 'leaders' cant just make some silly truce or work together for too long so the server bounus are 'schared'.. Because next week there will be two different servers you have to deal with!!!!

Thats all, theres alot more and alot more explantion but this sums up alot of the different hings from the god awfrul WAR

Probably.

well GW2 doesn't have open world pvp so there shouldn't really be a comparison. Anyone that disagrees with that is either a huge fanboy or deluded, and it is the big reason I won't be playing the game. 

But in general, open world pvp will always die if a game offers battlegrounds. 

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

For those that never played Warhammer Online, WAR had open world PvP as well as Battlegrounds. The open world PvP was actually pretty well done.

They were large areas oconnected to the main PvE areas in each zone. They had Keeps to fight over and Objectives. There were PvP only quests. You could also level through PvP. They failed miserably.

Players chose the path of least resistance, and queued for Instanced battlegrounds, where they could PvE while waiting. This left the open world PvP zones empty. For those players who did venture out, the Keeps were a merry-go-round. Players would avoid other players, and go directly to the keeps to PvE the boss and reap the rewards around and around again.

Apart from the earliest levels, open world PvP went nowhere. I don't think this was a failure Mythic saw coming. I was surprised myself, and I'm still not exactly sure what happened. Some players blame the Instanced battlegrounds for being too convenient. Others say the players weren't properly incentivized etc.

Either way, this is eerily similar to how the Mists are being set up. What will make it different in GW2?

 

The problem with WAR's open world pvp was that it had more than one place people congregated to pwn. If they had a centralized area that every went to to get their ass whooped then it would have been a lot different. Also, keep seiging was fun but also a total lagful cluster*bleep*.

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

well GW2 doesn't have open world pvp so there shouldn't really be a comparison. Anyone that disagrees with that is either a huge fanboy or deluded, and it is the big reason I won't be playing the game. 

But in general, open world pvp will always die if a game offers battlegrounds. 

This.  The giant battleground that they're trying to sell as open world PvP is nothing but a giant Alterac Valley.  3 factions is a nice touch... but why exactly are these "factions" fighting each other? 

Originally posted by mmogawd

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

well GW2 doesn't have open world pvp so there shouldn't really be a comparison. Anyone that disagrees with that is either a huge fanboy or deluded, and it is the big reason I won't be playing the game. 

But in general, open world pvp will always die if a game offers battlegrounds. 

This.  The giant battleground that they're trying to sell as open world PvP is nothing but a giant Alterac Valley.  3 factions is a nice touch... but why exactly are these "factions" fighting each other? 

For the pleasure and admiration of the gods.