Originally posted by 8BitAvata

 

 

First, I'm not enraged. Gaming is a hobby to me, nothing more. I sleep very well at night thank you very much.

Disappointed would be a better word to use, although I am insulted by the dumbing down of games trend.

I'm absolutely looking at this from a perspective of someone who (like many) was there at the birth of this genre. Someone who is very disappointed watching a genre he used to love being turned on its head over the past 5+ years.

A good question to ask would be, why have players become so anti-social?

Is it the games themselves, and the way they're designed/setup? The mindset they create and train?

I would say yes.

So I do blame the developers. They nurtured and fostered this whole instant gratification system, and in turn, have trained many gamers to expect that with every single activity they participate in.

The fact that there's now a (supposed) need to use incentives just to get players to group up in an MMO is very sad.

That should tell you all you need to know about the state of this genre and where its heading.

 

Here's what I've seen I'll use SWG as my reference as it's the game I probably remember the most about (in terms of complaints).

Questing is pointless, where's the game?, What should I be doing? Where do I go? This games sucks!?!? HOw do I join a faction the game doesn't tell me!!!!!!

Why should we PVP ? All it is is one gank after another or one giant zerg.. Why do I have to play for 8 months to a year before I can win in PVP too? WOW is way better!, I'm going to WOW, they have direction and questing it's not a grind!!!!!!

I could go on and on here but that's enough, I'm sorry the MMO genre today is the result of all of the complaints made back then.... Last I heard the old forums are still archived go look at the general discussion forum from 2003-2004, if you doubt what i wrote above.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by ianicus

Im sorry but I dont think either of your concerns are that big a deal, voice acting? I dont see how that is a problem at all, if anything it ADDS something to the game that most do not. I found voice acting quite fine in AOC.

Chain quests, again I fail to see how this matters. Pretty much all modern day MMO's have them, and if anything they provide A reason TO quest. endless, pointless quests with no great rewards would not intrest me, but a chain or even an epic chain with big rewrds at the end, these acctualy give me a reason to go through it, not only that the chain quests in SWTOR will be story intensive and make them that much more enjoyable. 

The art of story telling in videogames is something that has been a little hit and miss this past decade, but bioware has time and time again done an AMAZING job at it, im quite looking forward to this game.

I wanted to chime in a bit here on the voice acting bit, since you mention voice acting and storytelling in the same post.

Voice acting, cut scenes, storytelling... that means I'm not playing the game.  I'm watching it.  I'm a spectator.

If it were a case of ordinary NPCs talking to me instead of having to read it - that could be interesting, as long as it was not a cutscene.  Heck, if I could talk to the NPC and the NPC talk to me... would be trippy as Hell, am I right?  There is a world of difference between walking up to a NPC and them asking you what they can help you with (as opposed to reading their text) and being in a cutscene.

This also goes to storytelling.  Games should have a story.  It is not a story that should be told.  It is a story that should be experienced.  You should not watch it.  You should drive it or at least participate in it...not just witness it.

disagree 100% the voice acting, for me adds and extra dimension. When you are watching a videogame, its kind of a broken expierience to be reading text the whole game. when we watch a film, are we forced to watch captions the whole movie? (other languages absolved) no, we get a voice to the face, it only makes sense for them to introduce voice acting to interactive story telling.

I'm sorry the MMO genre today is the result of all of the complaints made back then.... Last I heard the old forums are still archived go look at the general discussion forum from 2003-2004, if you doubt what i wrote above.

No, the MMO genre today is the result of developers' continued use of the DikuMUD/EQ model.

Not because people on the SWG forums failed to grasp the idea behind a sandbox game...

***

We're trained monkeys now. We push a button, and a prize falls into our hands.

If an MMO doesn't have a button to push with an instant reward, more than likely, we won't be interested.

Can you honestly sit here and tell me the games themselves haven't contributed at all to how people behave in them?

MMOs of today have become too game-y if that makes sense.

It's no longer about living in a virtual world, it's about individual accolades; progression; rewards; best scores, etc, etc.

Add in the fact that we can do most of these things on our own now just makes it worse.

Originally posted by 8BitAvatar

I'm sorry the MMO genre today is the result of all of the complaints made back then.... Last I heard the old forums are still archived go look at the general discussion forum from 2003-2004, if you doubt what i wrote above.

No, the MMO genre today is the result of developers' continued use of the DikuMUD/EQ model.

Not because people on the SWG forums failed to grasp the idea behind a sandbox game...

***

We're trained monkeys now. We push a button, and a prize falls into our hands.

If an MMO doesn't have a button to push with an instant reward, more than likely, we won't be interested.

Can you honestly sit here and tell me the games themselves haven't contributed at all to how people behave in them?

MMOs of today have become too game-y if that makes sense.

It's no longer about living in a virtual world, it's about individual accolades; progression; rewards; best scores, etc, etc.

Add in the fact that we can do most of these things on our own now just makes it worse.

Look we agree and you obviously don't see it, but the result is not because devs are dumb and can't do any better. It's because this is what the majority asked for, they don't want to live in a virtual world, they want to play a game. SWG was a sim, WOW was a game, WOW won. That was basically all she wrote for the idea of MMO's being virtual worlds.

The average gamer doesn't know Skyrim being beaten in 3 hours is meaningless, they think it means the game is small they don't even understand the idea behind a virtual world to adventure and create your own story in. This concept is lost on them, their idea of a game is what the devs create for them, not what they create for themselves. They think the latter is doing the devs job for them.

Lots of folks lament about Ultima and it's  change from an open pvp game but it was customer complaints (and dropping sales) that goaded them into changing the game to a more safe environment.  (just another example of conceding to the masses to stay in business and after 15 years I guess it worked).

That being said I see no reason to have concerns over a game meant for entertainment. You either like what they've done or you don't and if you don't then you kind of have to hope enough will feel the same way. Hence the reason for threads like this to try and pressure a game company by rallying support for what you want personally. That is why gaming is the way it is.

Originally posted by plaxidia

 

Your chain quest argument is simply this.. People need to stop caring only about themselves.. If people really want to play an MMO they have to be willing to take a step backwards in their quest line and help others progress.. Too many people have developed the mindset that they need to 1. race to endgame and 2. only concern themselves with their own chars progression.. If people would stop and help someone move through the quest line even if it means taking a step or two backwards to get someone else up to where you are there would be far more groups going, far more social interaction and far less boredom.. IMO

 I agree and feel like a dinosour because if I group I group for the fun of a group and not the reward or that certain quest chain.

The problem lies indeed with the mindset you describe and not with chainquest, so OP needs to look at his own playstyle and he might see that that's where the problem lies.

Originally posted by ianicus

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by ianicus

Im sorry but I dont think either of your concerns are that big a deal, voice acting? I dont see how that is a problem at all, if anything it ADDS something to the game that most do not. I found voice acting quite fine in AOC.

Chain quests, again I fail to see how this matters. Pretty much all modern day MMO's have them, and if anything they provide A reason TO quest. endless, pointless quests with no great rewards would not intrest me, but a chain or even an epic chain with big rewrds at the end, these acctualy give me a reason to go through it, not only that the chain quests in SWTOR will be story intensive and make them that much more enjoyable. 

The art of story telling in videogames is something that has been a little hit and miss this past decade, but bioware has time and time again done an AMAZING job at it, im quite looking forward to this game.

I wanted to chime in a bit here on the voice acting bit, since you mention voice acting and storytelling in the same post.

Voice acting, cut scenes, storytelling... that means I'm not playing the game.  I'm watching it.  I'm a spectator.

If it were a case of ordinary NPCs talking to me instead of having to read it - that could be interesting, as long as it was not a cutscene.  Heck, if I could talk to the NPC and the NPC talk to me... would be trippy as Hell, am I right?  There is a world of difference between walking up to a NPC and them asking you what they can help you with (as opposed to reading their text) and being in a cutscene.

This also goes to storytelling.  Games should have a story.  It is not a story that should be told.  It is a story that should be experienced.  You should not watch it.  You should drive it or at least participate in it...not just witness it.

disagree 100% the voice acting, for me adds and extra dimension. When you are watching a videogame, its kind of a broken expierience to be reading text the whole game. when we watch a film, are we forced to watch captions the whole movie? (other languages absolved) no, we get a voice to the face, it only makes sense for them to introduce voice acting to interactive story telling.

VO may add an extra dimension as you say but at the same time it also disconnects you as well.  I kind of disagree with your movie analogy,  text have captured the imagination of people for years.  The point is there are good movies and there are bad movies, same goes for books & games.

It's pretty retarded Bioware has mmorpg by the gonads and 1/2 my last post was taking out due to "Trolling" because of "excessive negative comments."

I just completely lost all respect for mmorpg.com.

I've just been informed also that Gobla had a part to play.

Still, this site has become MSM to hell with PR.

Originally posted by Cameo3

It's pretty retarded Bioware has mmorpg by the gonads and 1/2 my last post was taking out due to "Trolling" because of "excessive negative comments."

I just completely lost all respect for mmorpg.com.

I've just been informed also that Gobla had a part to play.

Still, this site has become MSM to hell with PR.

dont troll if you dont wanna get busted for trolling.

i speak from experience, ive been busted for trolling this forum over 9000 times, OVER 9000!

get it, its funny, its an over 9000 joke, but seriously you can post criticism in a constructive and even humerous way and get the point out, without being a negative D bag.

Originally posted by Cameo3

It's pretty retarded Bioware has mmorpg by the gonads and 1/2 my last post was taking out due to "Trolling" because of "excessive negative comments."

I just completely lost all respect for mmorpg.com.

I've just been informed also that Gobla had a part to play.

Still, this site has become MSM to hell with PR.

Sorry for a quite pointless add to the thread.. but all I could think of when reading this was a quote from Monty Python:

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Don't want to be mistaken for a troll? Be constructive. ;)

Originally posted by 8BitAvatar

*shakes head*

You guys are using some of the worst analogies to get your own points across.

First, the Olympics. Now, TV.

I give up.

All analogies used on the internet are rubbish. As soon as an analogy comes up in a thread I walk away from it.

Originally posted by jeddak

That being said I see no reason to have concerns over a game meant for entertainment. You either like what they've done or you don't and if you don't then you kind of have to hope enough will feel the same way. Hence the reason for threads like this to try and pressure a game company by rallying support for what you want personally. That is why gaming is the way it is.

You see the reason is that we are concerned, not because we want something from the devs, I'm not even buying the game, but because there is legitimate concern to be had.

SWTOR has so much IP/DEV clout behind it it could change the industry forever. Metrics will go off the scales, Ghostcrawler will cry, Pandas will rain from the sky, CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER...

Threads like these are here for the community to exchange ideas and concepts, to discuss an issue, they might be ranty, cynical, or just taking the piss, but they are not here to garter support, seriously. This is less about gamer-conservatism rather than anti-conservatism, trying to make devs push the envelope. 

But good that you found a way to feel superior to both the trolls and the intelligent posters.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by jeddak

That being said I see no reason to have concerns over a game meant for entertainment. You either like what they've done or you don't and if you don't then you kind of have to hope enough will feel the same way. Hence the reason for threads like this to try and pressure a game company by rallying support for what you want personally. That is why gaming is the way it is.

 

You see the reason is that we are concerned, not because we want something from the devs, I'm not even buying the game, but because there is legitimate concern to be had.

SWTOR has so much IP/DEV clout behind it it could change the industry forever. Metrics will go off the scales, Ghostcrawler will cry, Pandas will rain from the sky, CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER...

 

Threads like these are here for the community to exchange ideas and concepts, to discuss an issue, they might be ranty, cynical, or just taking the piss, but they are not here to garter support, seriously. This is less about gamer-conservatism rather than anti-conservatism, trying to make devs push the envelope. 

 

But good that you found a way to feel superior to both the trolls and the intelligent posters.

 Here's a tip. If you have no intention of buying the game Bioware doesn't give a damn about your "concerns." Nor should they. Filling this forum with posts about it, no matter how well intentioned, is a complete waste of time. If there is a market for the game you would like someone will make it. If there isn't a market no one will and no level of concern will change that. What you need to do is find a forum that will reach people who might be influenced to believe there is a market. Bioware is not the droid you're looking for.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by jeddak

That being said I see no reason to have concerns over a game meant for entertainment. You either like what they've done or you don't and if you don't then you kind of have to hope enough will feel the same way. Hence the reason for threads like this to try and pressure a game company by rallying support for what you want personally. That is why gaming is the way it is.

 

You see the reason is that we are concerned, not because we want something from the devs, I'm not even buying the game, but because there is legitimate concern to be had.

SWTOR has so much IP/DEV clout behind it it could change the industry forever. Metrics will go off the scales, Ghostcrawler will cry, Pandas will rain from the sky, CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER...

 

Threads like these are here for the community to exchange ideas and concepts, to discuss an issue, they might be ranty, cynical, or just taking the piss, but they are not here to garter support, seriously. This is less about gamer-conservatism rather than anti-conservatism, trying to make devs push the envelope. 

 

But good that you found a way to feel superior to both the trolls and the intelligent posters.

 Here's a tip. If you have no intention of buying the game Bioware doesn't give a damn about your "concerns." Nor should they. Filling this forum with posts about it, no matter how well intentioned, is a complete waste of time. If there is a market for the game you would like someone will make it. If there isn't a market no one will and no level of concern will change that. What you need to do is find a forum that will reach people who might be influenced to believe there is a market. Bioware is not the droid you're looking for.

So, in a nutshell, you're basically saying the entire concept behind this website is a complete waste of time.

That a place where fellow MMORPG fans can discuss, debate and share ideas doesn't need to exist.

Gotcha.

I'm sure those 3,000+ posts of yours weren't a waste of time though, right?

***

On a side note, you're kidding yourself if you think people from the industry don't frequent these forums.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by 8BitAvata

 

 

First, I'm not enraged. Gaming is a hobby to me, nothing more. I sleep very well at night thank you very much.

Disappointed would be a better word to use, although I am insulted by the dumbing down of games trend.

I'm absolutely looking at this from a perspective of someone who (like many) was there at the birth of this genre. Someone who is very disappointed watching a genre he used to love being turned on its head over the past 5+ years.

A good question to ask would be, why have players become so anti-social?

Is it the games themselves, and the way they're designed/setup? The mindset they create and train?

I would say yes.

So I do blame the developers. They nurtured and fostered this whole instant gratification system, and in turn, have trained many gamers to expect that with every single activity they participate in.

The fact that there's now a (supposed) need to use incentives just to get players to group up in an MMO is very sad.

That should tell you all you need to know about the state of this genre and where its heading.

 

Here's what I've seen I'll use SWG as my reference as it's the game I probably remember the most about (in terms of complaints).

Questing is pointless, where's the game?, What should I be doing? Where do I go? This games sucks!?!? HOw do I join a faction the game doesn't tell me!!!!!!

Why should we PVP ? All it is is one gank after another or one giant zerg.. Why do I have to play for 8 months to a year before I can win in PVP too? WOW is way better!, I'm going to WOW, they have direction and questing it's not a grind!!!!!!

I could go on and on here but that's enough, I'm sorry the MMO genre today is the result of all of the complaints made back then.... Last I heard the old forums are still archived go look at the general discussion forum from 2003-2004, if you doubt what i wrote above.

 

 I remember those complaints very well so I can vouch for them. Not to mention the constant complaints about Jedi getting all the good updates while other professions were still broken, the constant nerfs,  having to change your template because the last patch nerfed it, jedi ruining PVP etc.etc.etc..

I also agree with the poster who said that players haven't all of a sudden become anti-social, we just have a larger pool of players playing than when this genre first started. Far as I'm concerned, MMOs are still playing catch up with single player games, though it is hard to do so when you have that loud minority constantly bitching that MMOs haven't  stayed the same boring,forced grouping grind fests that they used to be. We would be so lucky to have MMOs that are as vast and fun as games like Arkahm City.

after a lot of thought, ive decided my collector's ed wil be going up on ebay...

ive been reading WAY too many horror stories about the absolutely abismal customer service that origin gives.  

its just another theme park anyway, so, i figure ill just keep playing the one i'm playing now.  i dont need another theme park reskinned.

with what ill be able to sell it for, ill be able to pick up the starcraft II expansion, and the wow expansion, with some change left over.

Originally posted by plaxidia

 

---

Originally posted by page

 

There are two issues that really haunt me :
1) Chain Quest- THIS ISSUE IS NEVER EVER DISCUSSED. This issue kills mmo grouping to the max. Take part one to do part two. I'm now playing Rift.  For now I like the game.  It's ALL ABOUT CHAIN QUEST.  Both my friend and I are playing together and we realized we have to match every quest one for one to play together.  No one can play with us because of chain quest.  We tried to play with others, and it most always fails.  Many people don't like Rift, they find it boring. BUT no one ever thinks deeply as to why they don't like it......I know why !.....It's a solo game, unless you max level !
Joe is on quest 146 and Bob is on quest 151.  Joe can't play with Bob.  As time goes on, ten days in Bob quits because the game is boring.  Never realizing why !
I hate to use Vanilla WoW as an example. It was popular because Joe and Bob can take quest a,b,c,d,e,f,g and they can play together Or take a day off and continue playing. Joe and Bob can have a meaningful Guild, and a healthy friends list.
Making a dungeon finder, Rift invasions, or PvP battle grounds DOES NOT CUT IT....They are mini games, simple as that !
 
2) Voice acting- This was my concern with SWTOR from the start. Yes, it makes the game personal. Many will love it. Many will not !......At first I would think, maybe it's just me, its still in pre-release.  But reviews and leaks are confirming my concern.
Voice acting and personal instancing can kill an mmo. The real Star Wars fans will love it, the others will find it boring and quit. Just like Star Trek.

---

 

Your chain quest argument is simply this.. People need to stop caring only about themselves.. If people really want to play an MMO they have to be willing to take a step backwards in their quest line and help others progress.. Too many people have developed the mindset that they need to 1. race to endgame and 2. only concern themselves with their own chars progression.. If people would stop and help someone move through the quest line even if it means taking a step or two backwards to get someone else up to where you are there would be far more groups going, far more social interaction and far less boredom.. IMO

Totally agree, also hard-core players and hard-core  guilds makes MMOs null for the rest of the normal people, also some addons like damage/healing metters reduces the posibility to make groups, so developers need to think more to normal people than hard cores, because normal people are mayority, period.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Creslin321

Or...

Maybe you alter the foundations of the system itself so that grouping isn't the chore it was before.  Try to recognize the fundamental issues that make grouping a chore and change them so that the system as a whole is more conducive to grouping.

And that, my friend, was his point.  When you recognize that grouping is a pain and you decide to make a special incentive to make people group, but don't adress the real problem, then you have "copped out."  You have recognized a problem and decided to just put a band-aid on it instead of trying to fix the underlying issue.

Seems a wrong conclusion to me.

I think we can all agree that enforced grouping is not done anymore, I mean I had an awesome time in EQ and think I'd be able to handle enforced grouping even nowadays, but it has too many disadvantages for most people and I don't see enforced grouping be a success anymore in this MMO day and age.

 

So, what remains is to encourage grouping. For this, SWTOR has several implemented distinctions in place that could make grouping more interesting and accessible for all sorts of MMO gamers.

1. you get social points for grouping (reaches the achiever type of gamer in Bartle's model)

2. smaller groups of 4 makes it easier to form up a group

3. the possibility of having a Companion fill in an empty spot enables grouping even when you're just with 3, although it'll be more challenging.

4. more focus on hybridity and multi-role functionality per class, making more setups possible than the classic dedicated healer-main tank-dps setup

5. multi-player dialogues and remote quest dialogue participation, makes group questing and convenient

 

All these make questing and forming groups more fun, easier and more flexible than what's common in most MMO's. You can't force people to group up, but you could make the threshold of doing it lower and easier.

I even think that their decision to not do cross server grouping, at least not at the beginning, a good one, and I agree with their arguments that it had some huge disadvantages in the anonymity and asshole culture it can stimulate.

 

So, sorry, but I definitely disagree on the whole 'band aid' idea. Their measures and features as shown above clearly show that they've given the problem of grouping some thought. I'm not saying that this is the best or only solution for the grouping issue, but it's certainly an improvement upon the existing way.

I think I'm looking at the grouping situation at a much more fundamental level than you are in your post.

I remember when grouping didn't exist.  Players just cooperated sometimes...it wasn't perfect, but it happened.  With EQ, grouping became a mainstay MMO feature, but its purpose was just to allow player cooperation.  It did this by letting players share rewards (exp/gold) when they killed monsters.  It was a means to an end, that's all.

I think you have to see "grouping" as a TOOL to allow cooperation, that's all it is.  Many folks seem to look at grouping and cooperation as one in the same.  They assume that, in order to cooperate, players must be grouped.  This is not correct.

There are plenty of ways for players to cooperate without having to join a formal group.  In fact, the main reason that groups were absolutely required in older games like EQ is because of how EXP distribution worked.  Whoever dealt the most damage got ALL the exp.  So you HAD to group with people if you wanted to share exp.  Another reason is that it wasn't really possible to support your fellow players if you couldn't see their health bars...grouping allowed this.

So the point is, if you change the things like EXP distribution that make groups REQUIRED for cooperation...it really opens the door to a lot of things.  You can have players just casually cooperate when they run into each other without having to join a formal group.  And personally, I think for general purpose cooperation, this is best.

Grouping, IMO, should be reserved for things that require a formal team like dungeons or competitive PvP.  For informal things like just casually running into other players, I don't think grouping should be required.  You generally want to just help or be helped by the other player and then get on with your business.  Having to formally ask the other player to form a group puts an unnecessary formality in the game that most people won't even bother with.

So in conclusion...I really think you have to look at the basic question of how players can cooperate.  There are ways that players can cooperate without being formally grouped and this is something that really should be examined.  Limiting the scope of your vision to "grouping" is exactly that...limiting. 

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by jeddak

That being said I see no reason to have concerns over a game meant for entertainment. You either like what they've done or you don't and if you don't then you kind of have to hope enough will feel the same way. Hence the reason for threads like this to try and pressure a game company by rallying support for what you want personally. That is why gaming is the way it is.

 

You see the reason is that we are concerned, not because we want something from the devs, I'm not even buying the game, but because there is legitimate concern to be had.

SWTOR has so much IP/DEV clout behind it it could change the industry forever. Metrics will go off the scales, Ghostcrawler will cry, Pandas will rain from the sky, CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER...

 

Threads like these are here for the community to exchange ideas and concepts, to discuss an issue, they might be ranty, cynical, or just taking the piss, but they are not here to garter support, seriously. This is less about gamer-conservatism rather than anti-conservatism, trying to make devs push the envelope. 

 

But good that you found a way to feel superior to both the trolls and the intelligent posters.

 Here's a tip. If you have no intention of buying the game Bioware doesn't give a damn about your "concerns." Nor should they. Filling this forum with posts about it, no matter how well intentioned, is a complete waste of time. If there is a market for the game you would like someone will make it. If there isn't a market no one will and no level of concern will change that. What you need to do is find a forum that will reach people who might be influenced to believe there is a market. Bioware is not the droid you're looking for.

Apathy is bliss...

This is not about a game that i would like, this is about the carved-in-stone concepts the industry uses. Its not about if I -LIKE- SWTOR or if I LIKE GuildWars 2, these things are purely subjective.

Its about what is -GOOD- for the industry. Which concepts are -good- concepts in of themselves.

Right at this point I'd like to remind people that popular =/= good.

If you however want to argue that popular = good, because its all about $$$ then I wont necessary stop you.

However I will point out that this is the way to commitee games and metric driven design, creating a grey pulpy mass of corporate entertainment and not a game.

If this is indeed your argument, we can just both agree to disagree and put eachother on ignore.

-----

PS: I agree with everything Creslin321 said in his post. Cooperation =/= Grouping its a false meme in MMO-design

Originally posted by cerebrix

after a lot of thought, ive decided my collector's ed wil be going up on ebay...

 

ive been reading WAY too many horror stories about the absolutely abismal customer service that origin gives.  

 

its just another theme park anyway, so, i figure ill just keep playing the one i'm playing now.  i dont need another theme park reskinned.

 

with what ill be able to sell it for, ill be able to pick up the starcraft II expansion, and the wow expansion, with some change left over.

That's cool if that's what you want to do, but just as a heads up. Origin is not needed to run TOR.