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Originally posted by Uhwop

Yes.
Link me some posts were people made this complaint please.

If you claim that you can only buy white paper, and I then tell you that I sell red paper, that means you can buy something other then white paper.  I keep saying that I ran a guild that never required addons, and work with many other guilds that never required addons.  Now I'll state that I've also been in other guilds that never required addons.  I keep saying this, and you keep ignoring it.

I know that some guilds did require addons, I stated this already.  That doesn't mean that all guilds did, it doesn't mean that most did, it doesn't make addons bad, it doesn't mean that Rift will require addons.  It sure doesn't mean that people quit because of addons.  NO ONE QUIT WOW BECAUSE OF ADDONS.

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If you'd like to pretend otherwise, please don't let me interrupt that.

There wasn't a claim all guilds did this, although you're pushing that angle. The topic is there are/were even people in WoW requiring addons as 'standard' and 'essential' that it was a big enough problem. Eventually the vast majority of people just submit to the prevailing wisdom that "you're eventually going to have to use addons in WoW", so they just do it early.

This will happen in Rift. By 2.0 there will be no way someone will be playing Rift in dungeon or raid form without addons as either elective or as a mandatory measure to ensure the run's "success". That's my prediction.

Saying now that brand new addons are 'essential' is just the start.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Uhwop

Yes.
Link me some posts were people made this complaint please.

 

If you claim that you can only buy white paper, and I then tell you that I sell red paper, that means you can buy something other then white paper.  I keep saying that I ran a guild that never required addons, and work with many other guilds that never required addons.  Now I'll state that I've also been in other guilds that never required addons.  I keep saying this, and you keep ignoring it.

I know that some guilds did require addons, I stated this already.  That doesn't mean that all guilds did, it doesn't mean that most did, it doesn't make addons bad, it doesn't mean that Rift will require addons.  It sure doesn't mean that people quit because of addons.  NO ONE QUIT WOW BECAUSE OF ADDONS.

 

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Nah, that's ridiculous to do all that linking. It's well known people don't want to do all those things like GearScore and such. They only use it because if they don't have it, they get excluded from parties, dungeons and raids. Even pug groups did that as well.

 

 

If you'd like to pretend otherwise, please don't let me interrupt that.

 

 

There wasn't a claim all guilds did this, although you're pushing that angle. The topic is there are/were even people in WoW requiring addons as 'standard' and 'essential' that it was a big enough problem. Eventually the vast majority of people just submit to the prevailing wisdom that "you're eventually going to have to use addons in WoW", so they just do it early.

 

 

This will happen in Rift. By 2.0 there will be no way someone will be playing Rift in dungeon or raid form without addons as either elective or as a mandatory measure to ensure the run's "success". That's my prediction.

 

 

Saying now that brand new addons are 'essential' is just the start.

 

 

 

 

Edit:  nevermind.  I enjoy the game, and have a difference of opinion about addons.

You dislike the game and are willing to say whatever to bring negativety to it. 

You've baited me into derailing the thread enough.  I'll just start using the block feature from now.

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Originally posted by Uhwop

Edit:  nevermind.  I enjoy the game, and have a difference of opinion about addons.
You dislike the game and are willing to say whatever to bring negativety to it. 
You've baited me into derailing the thread enough.  I'll just start using the block feature from now.

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I think Rift will be fine as a game. I think they will continue to add things to it that it's base likes. I think mandatory addons and a cash shop will inevitably come as well but it won't kill the game as there are people who like it regardless.

I'm glad they will continue to allow addons so that a year from now, you will see exactly what I mean about how far it came regarding where WoW is now with addons being a requirement to play it.

Personally, I think it's a good thing the industry is moving away from this though. It's an antiquated system that really isn't necessary with today's advances in gameplay and story development.

Originally posted by Puremallace

Originally posted by popinjay

I sense a nasty trend coming in the next few months in Rift. Glad the industry as a whole is moving away from all of this nonsense.

When it (addon-mania) is finally dead in this industry, I doubt you'll have 100 mourners show up to the funeral.

People will want them in ToR just like they wanted them in Rift unless you think that arcade game UI they have will make WoW folks happy when they transition over.

 

Add ons are just a way to do what the devs could not do. Every person is different and everyone wants something different on their screen. No chance any dev can ever keep up, so they put it in the hands of the add on devs.

 

 

No.. Not "could not do". Did not do. To presume that the people who developed a game couldn't implement an interface feature, meanwhile they could do everything else in the game is the height of arrogance. Developers leave certain things up to the players to track and figure out for themselves. They're not included because they're not necessary to play the game.

I see this rationalization come up a lot for add-ons... "Oh we create these add-ons because they're things that should have been in the game at launch, but the devs failed to do so"

Question: Could you play the game, complete content and accomplish any kind of goal in the game without those addons, prior to their existence? The answer is Yes. Hence, addons are not, ever, necessary to play the game.

Raid boss add-ons are never necessary to defeat the raid boss. They only serve to make it easier and more predictable for the players. They make completing raids earlier. They are not necessary. They are not "missing" from the interface.

Healing add-ons are never necessary for a healer to do their job, they merely provide information that the healer would otherwise be tracking on their own... All they do is make the healer's job easier. They are not necessary. They are not "missing" from the interface.

Rinse and repeat with any other add-on ever created by a player.

They exist to remove the player's need to track and pay attention to things they'd normally have to. They're intended to make the game easier to play. That's the only purpose they serve. They're a convenience and a crutch, not a necessity.

Trying to sell them as something "mandatory" or "necessary" is just plain dishonest.

People choose to use add-ons. They never have to. And over time, players become so dependent on their use that they can't function without them. They're essentially gimping themselves, while quite ironically calling themselves "pro gamers"

If people require add-ons to complete content, especially when others have done so without them - then the handicap lies with the player and/or the group they're with... not the game's interface.

To put it another way... Name one aspect of a MMORPG - any MMORPG - that is literally and verifiably impossible to complete (not merely "really difficult") without the use of a user-made add-on.

You will not be able to name one.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Puremallace

Originally posted by popinjay

I sense a nasty trend coming in the next few months in Rift. Glad the industry as a whole is moving away from all of this nonsense.

When it (addon-mania) is finally dead in this industry, I doubt you'll have 100 mourners show up to the funeral.

People will want them in ToR just like they wanted them in Rift unless you think that arcade game UI they have will make WoW folks happy when they transition over.

 

Add ons are just a way to do what the devs could not do. Every person is different and everyone wants something different on their screen. No chance any dev can ever keep up, so they put it in the hands of the add on devs.

 

 

No.. Not "could not do". Did not do. To presume that the people who developed a game couldn't implement an interface feature, meanwhile they could do everything else in the game is the height of arrogance. Developers leave certain things up to the players to track and figure out for themselves. They're not included because they're not necessary to play the game.

I see this rationalization come up a lot for add-ons... "Oh we create these add-ons because they're things that should have been in the game at launch, but the devs failed to do so"

Question: Could you play the game, complete content and accomplish any kind of goal in the game without those addons, prior to their existence? The answer is Yes. Hence, addons are not, ever, necessary to play the game.

Raid boss add-ons are never necessary to defeat the raid boss. They only serve to make it easier and more predictable for the players. They make completing raids earlier. They are not necessary.

Healing add-ons are never necessary for a healer to do their job, they merely provide information that the healer would otherwise be tracking on their own... All they do is make the healer's job easier. They are not necessary.

Rinse and repeat with any other add-on ever created by a player.

They exist to remove the player's need to track things and pay attention, making the game easier to play. That's the only purpose they serve. They're a convenience and a crutch, not a necessity.

Trying to sell them as something "mandatory" or "necessary" is just plain dishonest.

People choose to use add-ons. They never have to. And over time, players become so dependent on their use that they can't function without them. They're essentially gimping themselves, while quite ironically calling themselves "pro gamers".

 

+1.

Originally posted by popinjay

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Having them in a game and saying they are "essential" to playing it is quite different.

 

I'm just saying, after seeing the list you posted, all the hoops people have to jump through now and you saying it's "essential" and "must have" after just seven months of release is pretty unnerving.

Just waiting for the Rift equivalent of GearScore to come in.

All I could think while reading your list was:

"What rough beast slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?

 

Exactly, if a game needs addons then the game is broken.

I never use addons. Its just my personal preference. I do, however, make full use of mousover macros.

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Originally posted by WSIMike

<excellent post with too many truths>

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When people got working bosses that weren't doing buggy things, they beat them without addons. Now we have this mania where certain ones are called "essential" and then repeated by other people as gospel. When that mindset starts to take hold, it is impossible to erase from a community's consciousness.

It's going to be dramatically different when they put in things in the future, but if Trion's playerbase is happy with it, cool. I just have a feeling it's going to be the raiding crowd that wants it though because I cannot see how much of this modness is useful for rifting, which is what the game is supposed to be about in the first place.

I think if they tried to put this in TOR, people would get seriously upset because they don't want it to turn into a WoW raiding format, and would want to keep it on a lore/fun level instead of Job #2.

Hello there, I am the originl author of the blog and I just want to say this..

Essential , must have etc.. are solely my personal opinion. If you think that is the truth somehow, you are weird.

Also, you don't need addons to play Rift and many choose to not to. Addons for me make my game less tedious and more enjoyable. If you don't like addons, then fine don't use it. You don't need to write long posts of how you beat so and so without addons or how you so and so game is dying because it introduced addons.

Remember, addons don't run the game for you. If you suck without addons you won't get any better with addons. 

Thanks to the OP for linking my blog,  I appreciate it :) 
 

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Originally posted by dulfy
Hello there, I am the originl author of the blog and I just want to say this..

Essential , must have etc.. are solely my personal opinion. If you think that is the truth somehow, you are weird. 
 

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In any event, the premise is that making certain mods and addons eventually will lead to one or several actually BEING essential as in WoW. This has already been proven to be true. This slippery slope has been slid down many times already.

Whether it isn't your intention or not is not the point really, but that it certainly has happened already in games and has it's roots starting to take hold now.

Like I said, its my personal opinion. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple solution. 

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Originally posted by dulfy
Like I said, its my personal opinion. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple solution. 

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It's just an internet discussion, that's all.