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Originally posted by fallenlords

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Originally posted by lizardbones


Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

 

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Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by fallenlords

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Originally posted by lizardbones


Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

 

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Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.

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The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

 

Try to be a little more open minded here.  I believe that what he is saying is that people will still start creating classes.  People are going to make Melee builds for "tanking" and Melee builds for "DPS".   We'll also see a lot of Hybrids too, and I think that a large number of those who would be attracted to a game like this will do that, but you'll still see  a lot of people building characters in an attempt to fill traditional class rolls.

As for levels?  Well, you can say there are no character levels, but as you still progress by learning new skills, the levels are really there right under the surface.  Ok, so I won't have a level 15 character... but, I've unlocked 15 skills.  And the guy kicking my ass isn't a level 20.... but he's unlocked 20 skills.

Originally posted by fallenlords

Because they are not specified as such, so the game is class-less and level-less.   Yeah right ...

You have held this exact same discussion several times in the past months, also you have gotten an abundance of answers on your questions. To me, this sounds like soapbox ranting.

What everyone can understand is that when they say level-less and classless, then it doesn't use the level system and class system as used in MMO's like EQ, WoW, LotrO etc: you're not rigidly locked from skills bc they aren't in your class, and there isn't a numerical level system that determines things like what skills you get.

Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of progression, also not that hard to understand, only not in the traditional class/level system as seen in the majority of MMO's.

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Originally posted by czekoskwigel

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Originally posted by lizardbones
 

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Originally posted by fallenlords

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Originally posted by lizardbones


Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

 

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Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.

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The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

 

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Try to be a little more open minded here.  I believe that what he is saying is that people will still start creating classes.  People are going to make Melee builds for "tanking" and Melee builds for "DPS".   We'll also see a lot of Hybrids too, and I think that a large number of those who would be attracted to a game like this will do that, but you'll still see  a lot of people building characters in an attempt to fill traditional class rolls.
As for levels?  Well, you can say there are no character levels, but as you still progress by learning new skills, the levels are really there right under the surface.  Ok, so I won't have a level 15 character... but, I've unlocked 15 skills.  And the guy kicking my ass isn't a level 20.... but he's unlocked 20 skills.

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Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

You have held this exact same discussion several times in the past months, also you have gotten an abundance of answers on your questions. To me, this sounds like soapbox ranting.

What everyone can understand is that when they say level-less and classless, then it doesn't use the level system and class system as used in MMO's like EQ, WoW, LotrO etc: you're not rigidly locked from skills bc they aren't in your class, and there isn't a numerical level system that determines things like what skills you get.

Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of progression, also not that hard to understand, only not in the traditional class/level system as seen in the majority of MMO's.

I have had one discussion about class and as mentioned found class still exists if you dig under the surface.  What I am trying to understand is what took them nearly ten years to do, make a game with secret societies that has a bit of ARG.  Sorry I thought TSW was suppose to be an evolutionary step in the MMO genre.  Part of that evolution I perceived to be no class or level, not class or level hidden underneath a different name.

All I am seeing at the moment is people seem to be getting excited about playing a part in a 'secret' society.  Though I have to say it isn't so secret with the way you pick your allegiance.  All I see here is faction gaming.  Then they are getting excited about the ARG aspect, which is something you either love or hate.  I personally hate it.  So far from what I have seen graphics are not next-gen, gameplay certainly looks sub standard I am wondering what has taken them nearly 10 years to create.  

The OP posted about another game trying level-less design, I don't see it at all.  All I see is a game not using the word level, not having numbers and basically masking the fact that level exists under the surface.  In much the same was as class still exists, even though it suppose to be class-less.

Originally posted by lizardbones


Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

Sounds like a cool system.  Without levels, and with gear being only a minor contribution to combat, I assume that either advanced abilities (spells, attacks, etc) are more powerful than lower ones (ability progression) or that skill value gains (think Oblivion where doing the same activity raises skill value and performance) are either stats themselves or drive stats which produce a character that is more powerfule (stat progression).

Pardon, I realize I'm not much of a contribution to conversation.  I'm just hoping to get a glimpse of the math/mechanics used to make this work.

Originally posted by lizardbones

The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

 

But the developers define the skills so although they may not be predefined to the player, there are predefined within the game world.  Unless they have some intelligent algorithm underneath everything which offers a player unique skill choices - which I doubt.   When they create skills they will have an eye for creating skills that fit class.  When people select skills they fulfill a class, even if they can respec and even if it is a hybrid cross-over class.  The fact skills are earned, means progression/level exists.   So class and level exist, just not in a traditional sense.

The way I look it, if I can spec the same as you and there is no uniqueness then the basics of level and class are still in play.  If everything is unique to my character then that is different kettle of fish, but I don't believe anybody is saying that is the case.

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Try to be a little more open minded here.  I believe that what he is saying is that people will still start creating classes.  People are going to make Melee builds for "tanking" and Melee builds for "DPS".   We'll also see a lot of Hybrids too, and I think that a large number of those who would be attracted to a game like this will do that, but you'll still see  a lot of people building characters in an attempt to fill traditional class rolls.

As for levels?  Well, you can say there are no character levels, but as you still progress by learning new skills, the levels are really there right under the surface.  Ok, so I won't have a level 15 character... but, I've unlocked 15 skills.  And the guy kicking my ass isn't a level 20.... but he's unlocked 20 skills.

You summed it up better than me. In my analogy about sugar-less jam, sugar is ordinarily added to thicken the jam.  So in order to make sugar-less jam thicken, you need to add something else.   Now if they had to add just tiny bit of sugar, then it would be reduced sugar jam not sugar-less. I am asking what are they are using instead of sugar in this instance and people seem to coming back to me and saying sugar.

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Originally posted by fallenlords

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Originally posted by lizardbones

The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

 

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But the developers define the skills so although they may not be predefined to the player, there are predefined within the game world.  Unless they have some intelligent algorithm underneath everything which offers a player unique skill choices - which I doubt.   When they create skills they will have an eye for creating skills that fit class.  When people select skills they fulfill a class, even if they can respec and even if it is a hybrid cross-over class.  The fact skills are earned, means progression/level exists.   So class and level exist, just not in a traditional sense.
 
The way I look it, if I can spec the same as you and there is no uniqueness then the basics of level and class are still in play.  If everything is unique to my character then that is different kettle of fish, but I don't believe anybody is saying that is the case.

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Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

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Originally posted by lizardbones


Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

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Sounds like a cool system.  Without levels, and with gear being only a minor contribution to combat, I assume that either advanced abilities (spells, attacks, etc) are more powerful than lower ones (ability progression) or that skill value gains (think Oblivion where doing the same activity raises skill value and performance) are either stats themselves or drive stats which produce a character that is more powerfule (stat progression).
Pardon, I realize I'm not much of a contribution to conversation.  I'm just hoping to get a glimpse of the math/mechanics used to make this work.

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Well you don't NEED progression as we know it ,which is levels.It shoudl be replaced with aging,that way the yare merely years of your life and would havbe different meaning than levels would.

Example a younger player would have more agility/stamina and older player would be wiser less agile.

You would spend your time in game learning skills and abilities anmd not by gaining a year in  age.A developer really needs to put a lot of depth into charater progressionm to make it fun and interesting,but so far devs do far less going for very simple designs that take no time of effort.

IMO it is way to oearly to comment on much,this type of game really needs a BETA test to be able to give any real opinion.

What i have noticed howeve is a couple things.....

The three male/female models all look to be using the same model with a different terxture set of course.There is only 3 factions which doesn't sit well with me either.I will be watching this game a bit,it is at least interesting.

Originally posted by lizardbones

What you're describing is not possible, which makes it pointless. It's not even a good thought experiment. The only way to avoid that is to not have character progression. Single player FPS do this. Multiplayer FPS do not. MMORPG do not. The only multiplayer game type that does this that I can think of is RTS, but even there you have progression, it's just not persistent.

If you can describe a system of progression in a game that doesn't somehow run into your "it's all classes and levels" idea I would like to hear it.

Otherwise, the rest of the gaming world has accepted that skill based progression and class based progression, while similar, are different for the player regardless of how much the underlying systems share.

You would make much more progress, at least in conversations if you dropped the "it's all classes and levels" and went with "progression between game X and Y is too similar, even though they are supposed to be different".

 

I am not the one stating this game is either class-less or level-less.  As I mentioned before I thought the innovation with TSW was to remove this whole concept, no matter what you want to call it. I thought that was the big deal with TSW and the evolution of the MMO. 

All I see is people are playing with terms to suit there own descriptions.   Fundamentally not a great deal has changed is what people appear to be saying.  Which means to all intents and purpose TSW is just another MMO utilising the already established principles, but perhaps in a slightly more creative way.  For innovation I need to look to the likes of Guild Wars 2 and persistent events, or to single player games like Skyrim. 

Which is why I wonder about the lengthy development period with TSW, to just churn out another MMO.   I thought the time had be taken on the innovations. With no innovations and what I have seen so far I can see this going the way of All Points Bulletin (APB).   When people just have 'vision' and go along with one persons idea of what is an ideal, things tend to fall flat on their face

For those that don't get the "level-less" design, go back to your WoW clones. If progression = levels, then what level were you when you graduated from lettered blocks to legos? Or from an almost toy-like calculator to a computer? Maybe instead of looking at progression as being something having to do with levels, perhaps you could see it as having to learn a skill. Just because you have X item doesn't mean you know how to use it, not even in the real world.

This whole xbox generation is annoying lol!

Originally posted by fallenlords

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

You have held this exact same discussion several times in the past months, also you have gotten an abundance of answers on your questions. To me, this sounds like soapbox ranting.

What everyone can understand is that when they say level-less and classless, then it doesn't use the level system and class system as used in MMO's like EQ, WoW, LotrO etc: you're not rigidly locked from skills bc they aren't in your class, and there isn't a numerical level system that determines things like what skills you get.

Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of progression, also not that hard to understand, only not in the traditional class/level system as seen in the majority of MMO's.

I have had one discussion about class and as mentioned found class still exists if you dig under the surface.  What I am trying to understand is what took them nearly ten years to do, make a game with secret societies that has a bit of ARG.  Sorry I thought TSW was suppose to be an evolutionary step in the MMO genre.  Part of that evolution I perceived to be no class or level, not class or level hidden underneath a different name.

 It didn't take them 10 straight years to make, Tornquist came up with the idea 10 years ago but he and his people were busy with other games in the meantime.

As for evolution: classless and level less have been done before in MMO's, so that isn't a revolution but it certainly is different from the majority of MMO's.

All I am seeing at the moment is people seem to be getting excited about playing a part in a 'secret' society.  Though I have to say it isn't so secret with the way you pick your allegiance.  All I see here is faction gaming.  Then they are getting excited about the ARG aspect, which is something you either love or hate.  I personally hate it.  So far from what I have seen graphics are not next-gen, gameplay certainly looks sub standard I am wondering what has taken them nearly 10 years to create.  

 You hate Funcom.

Bam.

Simple as that.

So every game they make you'll consider fuck with some excuse, but bottomline is when you're really honest that you hate everything that comes from Funcom, as you've stated quite often on this site yourself. TSW comes from Funcom, therefore you hate it by default. Shrug.

The rest is just details and flimsy excuses to camouflage the simple fact that you basically hate FC's guts and everything coming from them, TSW included.

The OP posted about another game trying level-less design, I don't see it at all.  All I see is a game not using the word level, not having numbers and basically masking the fact that level exists under the surface.  In much the same was as class still exists, even though it suppose to be class-less.

TSW is as classless as MMO's like UO, AC and SWG.

TSW doesn't use character levels like most MMO's since EQ does.

That's why the terms classless and level-less are used, since it doesn't use fixed classes and a char level system like most MMO's.

If those 2 simple things you can't understand, then to me it looks like the problem lies with you and your inability to look objectively past your FC hatred.

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Originally posted by fallenlords

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Originally posted by lizardbones

What you're describing is not possible, which makes it pointless. It's not even a good thought experiment. The only way to avoid that is to not have character progression. Single player FPS do this. Multiplayer FPS do not. MMORPG do not. The only multiplayer game type that does this that I can think of is RTS, but even there you have progression, it's just not persistent.

If you can describe a system of progression in a game that doesn't somehow run into your "it's all classes and levels" idea I would like to hear it.

Otherwise, the rest of the gaming world has accepted that skill based progression and class based progression, while similar, are different for the player regardless of how much the underlying systems share.

You would make much more progress, at least in conversations if you dropped the "it's all classes and levels" and went with "progression between game X and Y is too similar, even though they are supposed to be different".

 

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I am not the one stating this game is either class-less or level-less.  As I mentioned before I thought the innovation with TSW was to remove this whole concept, no matter what you want to call it. I thought that was the big deal with TSW and the evolution of the MMO. 
 
All I see is people are playing with terms to suit there own descriptions.   Fundamentally not a great deal has changed is what people appear to be saying.  Which means to all intents and purpose TSW is just another MMO utilising the already established principles, but perhaps in a slightly more creative way.  For innovation I need to look to the likes of Guild Wars 2 and persistent events, or to single player games like Skyrim. 
 
Which is why I wonder about the lengthy development period with TSW, to just churn out another MMO.   I thought the time had be taken on the innovations. With no innovations and what I have seen so far I can see this going the way of All Points Bulletin (APB).   When people just have 'vision' and go along with one persons idea of what is an ideal, things tend to fall flat on their face

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People are saying there is no level or class, but there is character progression and earned skills involved.  Sorry but the line is pretty darn thin.  There is no unique progression on a per character basis, there is no intuitive design to work out what archetype suits your play style.  Everything is still pick and mix, which will lead to optimal builds which will then defeat the whole concept.   If people find a skill is overpowered everybody will utilise it until it's nerfed.  The only thing it may stop is grinding for endless hours just for level, but then Funcom came up with innovative ways to do that already.  Who can forget Craig Morrisons classic off-line leveling, where your AOC character levels without playing.   That was a good incentive to get people to play AOC, not.

Big deal Tornquist had an idea to create an MMO based around secret societies around the same time as the Da Vinci Code was such a huge success.  The guy is a visionary and not jumping on any bandwagons at all, especially considering what the original concept was to be part of the Dreamfall series.  Fair enough they may not have been hard at it for ten years,  but where is the innovation? I don't see any at this present moment in time.

I don't personally like Funcom I don't hide that fact, but if they are innovating in the MMO genre I may be able to look past my prejudice.  I thought this MMO was suppose to herald a new era, not the same old stuff just different context.  The reason I don't like Funcom is what they did to AOC, they had an excellent game but just didn't put the effort into it.  I would be more forgiving if there were innovations to be seen with TSW, but no same old stuff.

Originally posted by fallenlords

I don't personally like Funcom I don't hide that fact, but if they are innovating in the MMO genre I may be able to look past my prejudice.  I thought this MMO was suppose to herald a new era, not the same old stuff just different context.  The reason I don't like Funcom is what they did to AOC, they had an excellent game but just didn't put the effort into it.  I would be more forgiving if there were innovations to be seen with TSW, but no same old stuff.

You must be playing purely some indie MMO's or no MMO's at all, if the only motivation and reason you can enjoy MMO's is when they're innovative and have mechanics that hasn't been seen in any other MMO in the past 10 years

This whole discussion is kind of tiresome, because it becomes that same old discussion again about 'what is innovative', where as it should be obvious that as good as all games built upon mechanics used earlier and that as good as everything has been seen before in however rudimentary form it may have been.

What TSW definitely is, is that it's quite different from other MMO's: from its contemporary horror/urban fantasy theme, to no levels and classes like only a few MMO's did, to its Investigation Mission, the use of darkness/light, its interactive team combat where skills used by team members can have additional effect upon your own skills, to its DAoC-style RvR system.

If those distinctions from the bulk of other MMO's can't interest you, well, there's enough other MMO's out there and upcoming, although I'm curious whether you'll find one that will apply to your need for innovativeness, which hasn't been done before one way or the other.

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Originally posted by Madimorga
I completely agree.  But then, I like games where I can hyperventilate over where to put every individual point. 

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:) this made me smile.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

You must be playing purely some indie MMO's or no MMO's at all, if the only motivation and reason you can enjoy MMO's is when they're innovative and have mechanics that hasn't been seen in any other MMO in the past 10 years

 

This whole discussion is kind of tiresome, because it becomes that same old discussion again about 'what is innovative', where as it should be obvious that as good as all games built upon mechanics used earlier and that as good as everything has been seen before in however rudimentary form it may have been.

What TSW definitely is, is that it's quite different from other MMO's: from its contemporary horror/urban fantasy theme, to no levels and classes like only a few MMO's did, to its Investigation Mission, the use of darkness/light, its interactive team combat where skills used by team members can have additional effect upon your own skills, to its DAoC-style RvR system.

If those distinctions from the bulk of other MMO's can't interest you, well, there's enough other MMO's out there and upcoming, although I'm curious whether you'll find one that will apply to your need for innovativeness, which hasn't been done before one way or the other.

In software development you either lead or follow, with games it is the same thing.  You either set/raise the bar or you produce the same old stuff.   A recent game that springs to mind Batman Arkham City, they took everything from the previous game and magnified it.  The original game was innovative to my mind in all sorts of areas, I half expected Arkham City to be a letdown but I was pleasantly surprised.   They could of easily sat on their hands and produced an extended clone of the original, it probably would of been a financial success. But they didn't they raised the bar again as far as superhero games go and took the lead. Only from themselves, but that's the thing.  You don't rest on your laurels, you don't assume there is no point raising that bar. Instead you see how far it can be raised.

AOC was just like a rip of any other MMO. You don't get the 12 million subs or shift high volumes of units if you are just producing the same as the others guys, with a slightly different setting.  That has limited appeal because people do look for the next step in game evolution.  If they didn't nothing would move forward. If Funcom aren' t thinking of innovation they should do is all a favor and give up now.   I thought Tornquist had this 'vision' to produce something legendary, not just the same old MMO experience with a few tweaks.  I was obviously wrong, I misunderstood.  Fair enough I will look to games like Guild Wars 2 to see how there persistent world works out.  But no I don't want to play the same old stuff with the same old mechanics repackaged, I want the next step.

Originally posted by loopback1199

For those that don't get the "level-less" design, go back to your WoW clones. If progression = levels, then what level were you when you graduated from lettered blocks to legos? Or from an almost toy-like calculator to a computer? Maybe instead of looking at progression as being something having to do with levels, perhaps you could see it as having to learn a skill. Just because you have X item doesn't mean you know how to use it, not even in the real world.

 

This whole xbox generation is annoying lol!

But you are not learning a skill are you, you are just having it enabled for use.   It becomes enabled for use once you reach a certain level, gather enough points, earn enough XP, complete the relevant quest line etc. Same with crafting you don't learn how to make things, you have things like recipes and collect items to fulfill a shopping list type of affair.