You people are crazy.

Listen, stop equaling murders in real life and pvp killings in game. When I kill you in the game, I don't harm you, okay? When you kill me, I'm not harmed. Got it? I don't have to be a psychopath to gank your toon, allright?

Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Grahor

You people are crazy.

 

Listen, stop equaling murders in real life and pvp killings in game. When I kill you in the game, I don't harm you, okay? When you kill me, I'm not harmed. Got it? I don't have to be a psychopath to gank your toon, allright?

 

Ridiculous.

You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.

And yes, you are missing the point.

It's kind of true, but it depends on the bastards in question;

Good Example;

AoC had a group on Tyranny at launch called *HOGG*, who were "the" griefer group on the server for the time. They would hold down an entire zone with just a handful of players, some not even max-lvl (at the time), and just keep people from doing their quests until they got riled up enough to find buddies and give them a real fight.

They didn't take in any new players wanting in, never truly zerged anyone, and were able to be a thorn in the whole server's side through sheer skill and coordination. Eventually people were loving the idea of hearing "HOGG @ FotD", or something. They even had a podcast (for a while) that was slightly entertaining. They actually did the server community a service by being a common enemy, and a respectable rival.

Bad Example;

Every once in a while 4chan will invade a game that allows for griefing (in any way) that happens to have a tree trial, or is just generally F2P. They attacked Wurm Online multiple times, a game where people change the game-world into art through months of work, and basically forced the devs to remove "basic accounts" for a time, and seperate an infinite free trial server from the premium ones. Yep, griefers hate having to pay - so it worked - but they came back to the free trials server during MY time there, and made ours gameplay days a living hell.

I almost never came back after having our forest cut down, being encased in an non-smashable fence, turning a quarter of the landmass into an unfixable gravel pit (the devs had to come in and fix it themselves using in-game tools), etc. They are lucky I even chose to go premium because of all that, but I'm glad I did. Imagine what others think after something like that. These people are just out to RUIN a game, with no other motive than actually making a game go under - it's literally in their charter.

>>You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.<<

No! No! If you are playing the damn game, you can't be harmed by the death of your toon worse than physically. You die in pve all the time! And if you ARE hurt that badly, don't play the game which allow non-consetual pvp - they have warnings on their boxes, you know. This is ridiculous. This is worse than ridiculous. I don't even know how to call it.

Worst case consequence: you stop playing the damn game. Oh noes! Your life is ruined! Why, may be you'll even stop playing games whatsoever and will do something useful with your time. Can't have it, can we!

@Grahor.

Dying once in PvP isn't griefing.... dying for every moment that you decide to play, because they have you locked down in front of a spawn point, is griefing.

Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.

I agree with this article 100%.

MMORPGS aren't exciting or as fun as they used to be because there's no risk in them.

In fact a lot of them you can win just by spending cash on them.

How is that fun? You spend $100-$200 and you've just beat the game (I'm sure it's much more many than this so please don't feel the need to correct me because it's just being used as an example).

I want to feel frustrated because I lost my hard earned items from being killed by open worlded PvP.

You know why?

Because then when I work hard to earn everything back the feeling of acomplishment would be 100% times more.

I know at the time it happens it's not fun and you wish it hadn't happened.

You wouldn't actually be saying that you wanted this to happen all along and neither would I. I think you know what I'm getting at though.

That feeling that you can do anything and get anything with hard enough work and dedication.

I dissagree for one reason. When you are playing a game you have a certain Anonymity. You can do horrible things to a person and then just log off.

In real life there can be permenent reprocussions to killing someone or stealing from them. This is part of why we behave. it isn't that we don't want to do bad things (Sometimes in a fit of rage) it is that we are worried about getting caught.

So if you want to take away all the safety nets and let characters kill each other and steal all their stuff at will... Go ahead. Just make sure that everyone in the game has to post their real Identity, where they live, what their e-mail is, what their phone number is. That way if someone griefs you; you can go over to there house and kick their ass in real life.

I bet people would behave a little better.

I often see the "risk VS reward" argument in debates like this.

But rarely is the hunter at any risk at all, wereas the hunted never see any reward.

And even if caught by an anti-pk gang, there is still little risk, even with full loot, these people rarely run around doing their evil deeds in bazzillion gold equipment, they have 5 complete, cheap, sets in the bank, tailored for the task.

Give it REAL consequences to be an evil bastard, once caught, and you are different ways into "red", ( ie flagged as a pk ), you go to jail, or are hanged, permanently!

As most MMO use the 90 minute or so day system, a one year sentence, for a murder for example, is one year in game time for that character, as in unplyable for two weeks, well playable in an 8 by 8 foot room, with a hole in the ground!

Enough crimes in your bag, public hanging and perma death!

Much like in real life there is freedom, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, until you get caught.

An FFA full loot mmo with a system like that could be really interesting.

>>Play EVE online, people park outside stations for 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, in shifts, to make sure other people can't undock (and therefore, play). It's a serious metagame of getting someone to cancel their sub.<<

*rolls eyes* well, clonejump, then! *Grumble, mumble, mumble* Ridiculous. I've played Eve for years; there is not a single situation there where a player can be actually GRIEFED without him being a complete and utter twit who repeats the same dumb action.. and suffers the same consequence.

And the worst case of cancelling the sub? Ohhhh! Horrible! You stop playing a game! You are grieviously harmed! I weep for your loss! Bah! Balderdash! Certainly that's on the same level as real-life murder!

Originally posted by Umbrood

Give it REAL consequences to be an evil bastard, once caught, and you are different ways into "red", ( ie flagged as a pk ), you go to jail, or are hanged, permanently!

As most MMO use the 90 minute or so day system, a one year sentence, for a murder for example, is one year in game time for that character, as in unplyable for two weeks, well playable in an 8 by 8 foot room, with a hole in the ground!

Enough crimes in your bag, public hanging and perma death!

Much like in real life there is freedom, you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want, until you get caught.

An FFA full loot mmo with a system like that could be really interesting.

I'm all for that; why not? I would gladly play that game and murder people in it, the consequences will make it all the more exciting.

And if caught? Well, I'll just log in another char, won't I?

This is the same warmed over dogma that the Goonies and others have been pushing for years now.  For those who aren't familiar with them, one of their mottos is; "We don't want to ruin the game, we want to ruin your game".  There will always be those who get their jollies from ruining others play experience.  Games that allow or encourage that niche themselves in the modern western markets.  Its a niche thats been growing progressively smaller over the years. 

Originally posted by meilirs

Lol I am watching the new E3 Neverwinter MMO trailer right now. Weird coincidence.

Don't even compare that piece of rubbish Cryptics is doing to NWN1. There won't be the 'world building' aspect that NWN1 had. As far as I have seen it will just be another tired attempt to play on a sucessful franchise. Cryptic's doing it, that should give you a clue. Atari flogged them off to Perfect World International less than 3 years after they bought them. We see Cryptics attitude towards quality with the farce that was Star Trek Online.

You want to re-energize the community, make Neverwinter a 'build your own world from square one' game like NWN1 was (with areas. placeables, terrain, scripting, community expansion,Linux server hosting,MySQL Database tie-in etc) but using modern 3D technology and they will have a winner.

They are bound to fail with a sad attempt at anything else. You can't stick in a few 'user controlable items' and call it Neverwinter. From what I have seen so far, they WILL NOT be getting my money.

Originally posted by Grahor

>>You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.<<

 

No! No! If you are playing the damn game, you can't be harmed by the death of your toon worse than physically. You die in pve all the time! And if you ARE hurt that badly, don't play the game which allow non-consetual pvp - they have warnings on their boxes, you know. This is ridiculous. This is worse than ridiculous. I don't even know how to call it.

 

Worst case consequence: you stop playing the damn game. Oh noes! Your life is ruined! Why, may be you'll even stop playing games whatsoever and will do something useful with your time. Can't have it, can we!

Yes, you entirely missed the point. We are talking about how important "bast****" prevention is from games as they detract from the overall experience. Games that allow for griefers and complete idiots that go unpunished will never succeed in creating a stable and healthy gaming environment.

Originally posted by Razeekster

I agree with this article 100%.

MMORPGS aren't exciting or as fun as they used to be because there's no risk in them.

In fact a lot of them you can win just by spending cash on them.

How is that fun? You spend $100-$200 and you've just beat the game (I'm sure it's much more many than this so please don't feel the need to correct me because it's just being used as an example).

I want to feel frustrated because I lost my hard earned items from being killed by open worlded PvP.

You know why?

Because then when I work hard to earn everything back the feeling of acomplishment would be 100% times more.

I know at the time it happens it's not fun and you wish it hadn't happened.

You wouldn't actually be saying that you wanted this to happen all along and neither would I. I think you know what I'm getting at though.

That feeling that you can do anything and get anything with hard enough work and dedication.

He's not talking about risk. There can be a whole lot of that without griefing and within a game's established rules. What he is suggesting is that MMO's should allow for more assh**** which is simply an immature and unfounded idea.

Originally posted by Grahor

I'm all for that; why not? I would gladly play that game and murder people in it, the consequences will make it all the more exciting.

And if caught? Well, I'll just log in another char, won't I?

Usually these games only allow for one character per server.

Originally posted by Alx_Starfire

Originally posted by meilirs

Lol I am watching the new E3 Neverwinter MMO trailer right now. Weird coincidence.

Don't even compare that piece of rubbish Cryptics is doing to NWN1.

I just heard about the MMO so I was watching the trailer.

On topic:

Actually, I remember that in one free to play game I played back in the day that was kill and loot the pk areas were actually better than the non-pk ones.

People were more well-behaved if they knew you could kill them and take all their shiny gold pieces. Like, in the non-pk areas players would harrass you and "steal" mobs while cussing you out. In the pk area players had two choices: if you were weak you had to be polite or if you were stronger then you could kill the other player.

Originally posted by Kyleran
IThere's a fine line between simple player killing as part of the game, and griefing because you enjoy causing others pain. Obviously some folks don't realize it

And what people dont seem to realize is that there is no way to tell which is the other players motive for killing you. Everyone just assumes its because they are a griefer because they lack the maturity to handle a game with consequences such as being killed and looted.

Instead of being mature and seeing what being killed is, a minor set back, they automatically cry griefer. Bascially, there is no fine line, just people who cant take being one up'd by another player.

Originally posted by vaultbrain

Originally posted by Kyleran
IThere's a fine line between simple player killing as part of the game, and griefing because you enjoy causing others pain. Obviously some folks don't realize it

And what people dont seem to realize is that there is no way to tell which is the other players motive for killing you. Everyone just assumes its because they are a griefer because they lack the maturity to handle a game with consequences such as being killed and looted.

Instead of being mature and seeing what being killed is, a minor set back, they automatically cry griefer. Bascially, there is no fine line, just people who cant take being one up'd by another player.

Well, thats certainly one possibility. But over time its been demonstrated countless times, that there ARE people who get their jollies from ruining others play experience.  Rather than blaming the victim (which in some regards, is what a certain perspective advocates) it makes more sense, business wise, to take steps to eliminate the ability for griefers and gankers and their antics to disrupt others play experience. 

Perpetuum is an example of a game that has both elements, and handles them rather well. On the Alpha islands unflagged players simply can't be attacked by players. Period.  On the Beta islands its free for all PvP.  Anyone going to the Betas knows that.  In that regard, its the natural end point to a system such as the evolution of EVE's Concord.

That evolution has been to protect CCP's business model.  As long as people like the Goonies exist, game companies in the modern western markets would be best served to adopt the model that Perpetuum uses.

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/

The explanation as to why there is so little 'PvP Freedom' is in a poll on this very site.

What's more important to you, PvE or PvP? With something like 13,000 votes counted you have:

PvE - 15.7%
PvE focus with a little PvP - 31.8%
PvP/PvE equally - 35.7%
PvP focus with a little PvP - 11.0%
PvP - 5.8%

The scale is heavily weighted to the PvE side. If you equate 'Freedom' with 'PvP', then there will be fewer games that have the 'freedom' you're looking for. In short, the article is wrong. The genre doesn't need more bastards. The genre needs better implemented PvE freedom because that's what more people want.

Unless the point is that the person writing the article just wants more PvP freedom instead of that the genre needs it.