I guess it's the trend nowadays to make MMOs more casual gamer friendly and therefore reduce or even totally remove old school "kill and loot their armor" type of gameplay but I miss it.

Yeah, sometimes you die and it sucks a lot when you lose all of your good stuff but hey, it made life more exciting back in the day. You had to keep an eye out for those murdering player killers all the time. I mean, if a player went up to you and noticed you were afk, say goodbye to your armor. Heck, if I went up to a lower-level guy and he was afking, I would kill him myself even though I am not a hardcore pk. It was just how it was.

Nowadays you can probably play any MMO without worrying about anything at all. Just go and play solo, complete your quests and level up. That's what I do in WoW.

You would totally hate my world. No Player Looting (or Player Killing for that matter..I know ZMOG!! NO PVP!! sorry not here..)

The monsters in the world are perfectly capable of killing you without help from players.

Looking for a good time with no B.S? come back to the best MMO ever made (and the most customizable) Neverwinter Nights - The First Edition.

Cheers

Lol I am watching the new E3 Neverwinter MMO trailer right now. Weird coincidence.

The article isn't stupid but misses that the problem isn't that MMOs have less freedom now, some of the old had very little freedom as well. The problem is that they are all the same, or to be more precicesly gives the same experience to the playrs who plays them.

The old games varied a lot and by playing a few you got different experiences, instead of just leveling 6 weeks, 2 weeks of dungeons and then the old raid hamsterwheel all games today with few exceptions have.

Different skins and names of the attacks and possibly the classes ain't enough, it is still all the same crap.And having 80 instead of 40 levels at launch changes nothing at all even though some companies seems to think it does.

I remember when actually learning a new games took time and at least some basic skill. Games like Rift took about 2 minutes to get into. No surprises, nothing unexpected, just the same old familiar things.

Are MMO players really that boring that most of us just want more old familiar stuff year after year?

Or are the players getting old and wanting the same safe stuff they liked when they were younger, as so many people seems to do with music?

I personally hope at least it is just the uninspired few publishers like EA and Activision that is behind it all.

Originally posted by Alx_Starfire

You would totally hate my world. No Player Looting (or Player Killing for that matter..I know ZMOG!! NO PVP!! sorry not here..)

The monsters in the world are perfectly capable of killing you without help from players.

Looking for a good time with no B.S? come back to the best MMO ever made (and the most customizable) Neverwinter Nights - The First Edition.

Cheers

It was a great game, but not really a MMO. 128 players on each servers is just too small, it is a MORPG, not a MMORPG.

I wish Bioware could get back the FR license and remake this game, it is one of the few oold games good enough for that.

As for Cryptics version, I am at least glad their new owners took them in the ear and forced them to mave back the game a year and actually release something that is close to complete this time.

This article is a huge pile of bull.

First, if you want to play UO, then go play UO. Dont annoy me with demanding that MY MMO should be UO, too. I dont want to play UO, end of story.

Second, the point of games is that they should be fun. Yes, a chance for failure, a challenge, helps fun.

But getting killed by a ganker is no failure. You stand no chance. If you would stand a chance, the ganker wouldnt bother to attack. Thus, there is no failure on your part.

Thus, gankers do not cause fun. Gankers do not cause thrill. Gankers simply kill other peoples motive to play the game. Gankers are assholes that should get banned the faster the better, end of story. Either you remove the bastards from your game, or the nice people will leave. Thats your only two choices.

Third, its just too funny that the article cites AGENT SMITH to support his theory, and doesnt even get what Agent Smith was actually saying. The Matrix is a lie in the first place.

And if I would actually want to see bastards, I can just go into politics. I really dont need any game for that.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Madimorga

Funny article, but I disagree with the cause and effect.  Let's reverse it.  If there were less Bastishes in MMOs, there would be less reason to restrict free will.

Odd way of looking at it, what is the point of free will if you cannot go against the grain?

 

The article is spot on, but prepare for people straight away crying "grief" without even reading it.

I agree with your statement and thats also the big problem these days.

I agree 100% with article.

Most whiners and crybabys will never understand this way of playing anyway.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Alx_Starfire

You would totally hate my world. No Player Looting (or Player Killing for that matter..I know ZMOG!! NO PVP!! sorry not here..)

The monsters in the world are perfectly capable of killing you without help from players.

Looking for a good time with no B.S? come back to the best MMO ever made (and the most customizable) Neverwinter Nights - The First Edition.

Cheers

It was a great game, but not really a MMO. 128 players on each servers is just too small, it is a MORPG, not a MMORPG.

I wish Bioware could get back the FR license and remake this game, it is one of the few oold games good enough for that.

As for Cryptics version, I am at least glad their new owners took them in the ear and forced them to mave back the game a year and actually release something that is close to complete this time.

If im correctly AoC alos have MAX 50 players on one server clone so you never wil see more then 50 players or you have to go to other clone server. So NWN with 128 is more a mmo then AoC but AoC is a mmorpg?

Unconditional freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.

Agreed, absolute freedom is a terrible goal for a MMORPG to have, especially if trying to develop a decent world simulation.

Real world has laws, police, severe penalties that even then struggle to keep the barbarian inside mankind in check, so in a game world with no real consequence how much more challenging is it for a developer to keep the baser instincts in check and prevent everything from devolving into chaos?

I suppose you could create a "policeman" class, which was substantially stronger than the average Pker, had the right to pursue and hunt down criminals with tools not normally at the disposal of the average pker, and the consequences for pking should be the same as in the real world, long term incararation or even character death.

Who really wants to take the time to design a game like that, too much effort and one finds that most people who claim to be griefers and pkers really don't have the stomach to face real in game risk, they make sure the odds are strongly in their favor in almost every situation. (which is smart I'll agree, but certainly no fun for the victim)

Originally posted by Kyleran one finds that most people who claim to be griefers and pkers really don't have the stomach to face real in game risk, they make sure the odds are strongly in their favor in almost every situation. (which is smart I'll agree, but certainly no fun for the victim)

 

I think in many cases that is true.

The few times I located and pk'ed former attackers I found them to be crying, whiny little kids. going off on rants, swearing, making threats that they would make my life miserable, etc. when they found me I was completley unaware and as is the case with some of these games, at times it only takes a few hits to push you into "you lose" territory.

Not in every case but they are there.

They just be joys in "real life".

still, there are pk'ers who are decent people and who add a bit of fun to open world pvp. They are respectful, react with "ah yeah, you got me" and in genreal act more in line with the spirit of these games being "games".

Originally posted by stealthbr

Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.

Games are made by DEVELOPERS they annouce the game and it get followers right?

So when those followers know what game is, it seems to me when they start playing they agree on terms that game have right?

If the game have FREE FOR ALL(i think we all understand what that means right?) and you still starting to play and you accept those rules you can't complain about harsh PVP right?

But lets start with game thats no longer, but where i started to hate all whiners and crybabys who wanne be left alone  while pve and hated gankers/pkers.

Game is called Asherons call 2 it had regular PVE white serves with some areas where you could PVP like palisade region, and you had plenty of choice in US and EUROPE to choose your white server.

But you had one FREE FOR ALL server called DARKTIDE only ONE everybody knew it was a hardcore PVP(AND NOT EVEN WITH FULL LOOT) witch means in Asherons call 2 no safezone at all. Did not matter if you entered towns or dungeons its was all OPEN PVP.

So all who choose to play on such server SHOULD NEVER whine or cry about been corpse camped or ganked or that there dugeon run is ruined when your fight  BOSS for example. If you complain about FREE FOR ALL PVP choose a white server right or am i wrong tell me?

Nobody force you to play such servers with hardcore pvp right?

But NOOO... still people who keep crying and crying about harsh pvp becouse pkers/gankers did not leave them alone lol what a losers i say, dont make a toon then on server like that right?

The good thing about AC2 was it still had a decent ANTI vs RPK community on Darktide and ANTI many times protected the newbees and the weak and hunt down Pkers. Players made there own politics and most of time it worked when notorious players keep ganking lowbees ANTI came in to help them.

But thats how it slowly started people made a toon on FREE FOR ALL pvp server but still expected a WHITE safezone server WTF:(

Result is we have now mainly uber protective games with instance and bullshit BG or ARENAS for those who can't take real hardcore PVP.

Its sad but now only few games left like Darkfall and its empty becouse most hate the ganking or hardcore gameplay bah:(

One of reasons why i almost dont play MMO'S anymore is becouse of this attitude people have agains my favorite genre FREE FOR ALL FULL LOOT PVP and its dying:(

And you can't attacke me for this, becouse i was pure ANTI always helped weak and newbees and hunt down evil pk. But that was the whole fun pk/gankers attacked anybody they saw and ANTI fight those who disrupt the peace thats makes it fun and EXCITING.

@ Above poster what your saying is absolutely not true ive played sinds '99 mainly hardcore free for all pvp mmo's and ive for most time met pkers who dont cry more then the avarage white server leave me alone crybabys and whiners sure some maybe cryed and only take on lowbees but on Darktide that was for most part not the case.

the "problem" is not specific MMOs. "problem" are players. when players have different set of assumptions and expectation, no game system EVER will make all players happy. on the other side, when player do have same assumptions and expectations, the game system is irrelevant. that's why role-playing is primarily a cooperative experience, and it stands somewhat opposed to traditional gaming, which is competitive.

that's not to stay that role-players can't role-play "competition", but it's essential that resulting narrative will be acceptable to both sides. on the other hand, gamers can take on specific role, but it's not more than a flavor toward their desired goal.

in other words, it's not who's right or wrong, but what who wants what. more different games... for everyone!

Originally posted by forest-nl <snip>

While developers do indeed decide how to formulate their game and how the rules are going to operate, in order for a meaningful, persistent, and healthy online community to develop and prosper, one needs laws, rules, and policies. You can't give freedom to the extent that the players can decide and do anything. Such does not work in the real world with actual punishments and would most definitely not work in an online environment, defined by its anonymosity and lack of real consequence. If you do not create a set of parameters that essentially limit what the character can do, uncategorically there will be no organization whatsoever. I suggest you read a rather famous novel called The Heart of Darkness, which deals a lot with how human nature operates without the constrictions of society.

Originally posted by WW4BW

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Madimorga

Funny article, but I disagree with the cause and effect.  Let's reverse it.  If there were less Bastishes in MMOs, there would be less reason to restrict free will.

Odd way of looking at it, what is the point of free will if you cannot go against the grain?

 

 

The same point of me not going out and killing a bunch of random people, then burying their bodies in random locations just because I might get away with it?  You don't have to be a seriel killer to go against the grain, in real life or in games. 

Errrr isnt that what we do in MMOs every single day?.. ok sometimes its animals.. and more often than not they are computer controlled and not player controlled.. But 99% of all MMO and a great deal of other computer games are about killing stuff in droves.

 

 

Your analogy is a complete equivocation. There is no person on the other end of the game happily playing as the digital rat just moving about in a field.

Back to the topic at hand. Open world PvP with real consequences is extremely niche because most players don't have the time to keep up with elitePKninjarzxxx. How many people play Mortal Online? Hell how many people played UO? Take the agregate of the gaming community and you will see that the vast majority has already voted with their dollar away from that type of system.

A simple solution to the authors desire for that feeling of "I could be attacked at any moment" would be to play games with RvR. It consolidates a large audience of people that like this in their game without ruining the fun other people have in the game. The problem isn't that there's not enough "free will" as the author puts it, the problem with MMOs today is that they follow the same, tired game design troupes: Questing is repetitive, gear grinds > skill, nothing in the world is very dynamic or changing.

Hopefully GW2 can help re-energize this stagnant genre. 

Originally posted by forest-nl

Originally posted by stealthbr

Absolute freedom is an illusion. Real world societies do not operate in this manner and so wouldn't game societies. You need rules, laws, and policies to contain the people, especially in cases where real forms of punishment are merely superficial or redundant at best. Man, devoid of society's grasp, reveals its true nature and, unshackled by organization, is led to disruption, chaos, and absolute anarchy.

Games are made by DEVELOPERS they annouce the game and it get followers right?

So when those followers know what game is, it seems to me when they start playing they agree on terms that game have right?

If the game have FREE FOR ALL(i think we all understand what that means right?) and you still starting to play and you accept those rules you can't complain about harsh PVP right?

But lets start with game thats no longer, but where i started to hate all whiners and crybabys who wanne be left alone  while pve and hated gankers/pkers.

I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it.  If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back.  While early MMO developers expected there to be some conflict, I doubt they figured on so many d-bags making griefing into a gaming career.  What was once intended to be the ultimate freedom in RP, was pretty much diminished to, "yeah... this guy's still hurt from fighting that panther.  Time to get my gank on".

Lastly Mr. Kayatta doesn't seem to want free will.  He just wants to be a dick to people who don't want to be treated that way.  He apparently doesn't want to go to Mortal Online or Darkfall, 2 games that would give him exactly what he wants.  WOW has PvP servers.  TOR will have PvP servers.  AoC has PvP servers, including a brand new one with all kinds of wide open PvP rules...

But that's not what he wants.

He wants to be able to go to LotRO, find a guy playing lute in the Prancing Pony, and take 'em out and teabag his corpse before the guy can even arm himself.  He's not interested in playing against like minded people, because there are games where those like minded people gather and play just like he does.  Nope. 

He just wants to be a dick, and UMADBRO just doesn't have the same impact against a willing participant.

 

 

Originally posted by Robsolf

I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it.  If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back. 

 

Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.

Originally posted by stealthbr

Originally posted by Robsolf

I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it.  If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back. 

 

Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.

While I agree with that on some level, I don't think that the increase in homicides would be permanent.  The laws in our societies which prohibit murder came about due to the need for human beings to rely upon each other to survive.  Or, at least, to make surviving much easier.  Although there may be an increase in homicide for a short time, eventually this would stabilize as people learn first-hand exactly why murder was made illegal in the first place.  Sure, you could kill the grocer in order to feed your family, but keep in mind that that grocer's larder will eventually empty, and you'll be no better off than you were before.  Further, if the rest of the community also relies on that grocer for their food, they'll be pissed at the fact that you've killed him and will likely do something about it (kill you right back, perhaps?).  The laws that keep people in check were formed out of the interdependence of individuals in civilized society; removing federal law which prohibits murder wouldn't have an effect on that interdependence.  

The problem with MMOs, as I view it, is the slow loss of this interdependence among players.  In most games today its entirely possible, if you want, to get to max level on your own.  Increasingly more options are being provided for those who wish to continue to play by themselves at end-game.  Even the options that force you to interact (dungeon finders, scenario/battleground queues, etc.) allow you to interact cross-server in order to streamline the process.  While this may be all well and good, it destroys any semblance of a society or a community within these games, and that is where the anarchy comes from.

If you want my opinion on how to fix it, do this.  Increase the freedom people have in game.  Let them kill people or be an asshat as often as they'd like.  But also increase the difficulty of levelling content.  Make the game require positive, cooperative, amicable interaction between players in order to advance.  Of course, there will still be bastards, but if being a bastard means being blacklisted by so many people that you can't find a group, you'll either change your act real fast or be forced to reroll. 

Originally posted by Vorruga

While I agree with that on some level, I don't think that the increase in homicides would be permanent.  The laws in our societies which prohibit murder came about due to the need for human beings to rely upon each other to survive.  Or, at least, to make surviving much easier.  Although there may be an increase in homicide for a short time, eventually this would stabilize as people learn first-hand exactly why murder was made illegal in the first place.  Sure, you could kill the grocer in order to feed your family, but keep in mind that that grocer's larder will eventually empty, and you'll be no better off than you were before.  Further, if the rest of the community also relies on that grocer for their food, they'll be pissed at the fact that you've killed him and will likely do something about it (kill you right back, perhaps?).  The laws that keep people in check were formed out of the interdependence of individuals in civilized society; removing federal law which prohibits murder wouldn't have an effect on that interdependence.  

The problem with MMOs, as I view it, is the slow loss of this interdependence among players.  In most games today its entirely possible, if you want, to get to max level on your own.  Increasingly more options are being provided for those who wish to continue to play by themselves at end-game.  Even the options that force you to interact (dungeon finders, scenario/battleground queues, etc.) allow you to interact cross-server in order to streamline the process.  While this may be all well and good, it destroys any semblance of a society or a community within these games, and that is where the anarchy comes from.

If you want my opinion on how to fix it, do this.  Increase the freedom people have in game.  Let them kill people or be an asshat as often as they'd like.  But also increase the difficulty of levelling content.  Make the game require positive, cooperative, amicable interaction between players in order to advance.  Of course, there will still be bastards, but if being a bastard means being blacklisted by so many people that you can't find a group, you'll either change your act real fast or be forced to reroll. 

 

That would not work simply because some people don't give a damn, especially in online worlds. Through anonymosity and lack of any real consequence, people can go about doing whatever the hell they feel like it, and eventually, they will look into detracting from other peoples' experience, even if that person would otherwise serve as someone helpful. For an in-game community to work, you not only need interdependence, but you need established laws and punishments. Some people live off what others gain. Some people just like to annoy others. Some people are simply crazy. Some people are too ambitious. Some are too greedy. Some may be unaware of the real reason they are killing. Some people are prejudicial. The list goes on and on. As much as most of the people in society tend to band together to establish a greater good and some sense of order, there is no predicting the human mentality of certain individuals, who alone can bring utter disruption without the infractions and penalties to stop them.

Sometimes laws cause more harm than good.  In certain parts of the city, a bad traffic would happen approximately once a year, resulting in death.  To stop this problem, they removed the traffic lights and made a circular area, people had to slow down because they weren't use to it, and everyone is more careful in that intersection and as a result, for the last few years at least, no casualties.  Not to say that a bastard couldn't come along and run someone over, that is certainly possible.

We don't need more bastards in MMORPGS.  We do need more variety in mmorpgs.  Too many mmorpgs are too similiar.  not every mmorpg should have number keystrokes that activate abilities.  The majority do though.  Yes, you can remap your keyboard, but the point remains that a new system should be designed that is fun to play.  We need more complexity, and more diversity.  What is most mmorpgs about?  Leveling, and crafting....Most mmorpgs are about this.  We need more variety.

PVP should not be the only other option.  Some characters are just stronger than other builds.   A have a character in City of Heroes that is a scrapper, his main job is to do Damage per Second.  I upgraded him to have a range weapon and flight.  He's very dangerous in PVP.  The problem, its not that challenging.  No one wants to PVP one vs one in that game.  City of Heroes is all about PVE, not PVP.  Most mmorpgs are like this.  90% of the game is Care-bears.  They don't want to PVP.

Most smart people don't go around killing others (In real Life).  The reason is because its a quick way to end your own life.   Eventually you make a mistake, and either get caught or killed yourself.   99% of the population is normal, its the 1% that you have to watch out for.  probably less than 1%.