Originally posted by Orious

...snip...

 

Good luck playing any mmo in the future then... it's where they ALL are headed.... (GW2/SWTOR/probably not ArchAge yet...)

Is ArcheAge anything more than vaporware though?

But yeah, pretty much every MMO is including some form of store - whether it is supposedly just for fluff or P2W.

I am going Templar for sure.

Originally posted by Orious

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Pala

Yeah but it has a cash shop and that kills it for me.

Same.

Same.

Good luck playing any mmo in the future then... it's where they ALL are headed.... (GW2/SWTOR/probably not ArchAge yet...)

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Originally posted by Orious

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Pala

Yeah but it has a cash shop and that kills it for me.

Same.

 

Same here.

 

Others making it also does not make it better.

 

On top of that, Funcom stated themselves that they'll continue to expand store as game mature + want to make 35% revenue from it.

 

Won't support that.

 

Good luck playing any mmo in the future then... it's where they ALL are headed.... (GW2/SWTOR/probably not ArchAge yet...)

Oh scary though...not.

I will play niche pure titles then, or private servers without cash shops or I just won't play at all.

Industry don't want to provide me with good game with business model I consider fair? They will not get my money spent on their product.

Kinda normal,  nothing big.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by JeroKane

...snip...

That's why PvE is a "PLAGUE" to the MMORPG genre and always will be!

MMORPG's aren't about balance! Never have been!

MMORPG's were always about Cooperation! Teamplay! Helping eachother!

People have simply forgotten that over time. The whole PvE in MMORPG's has turned them all in horrible "EPEEN" driven "WHINING" nannies complaining, complaining and more complaining!

And so litterly "DESTROYING" the MMORPG genre!

This is what PvE has done to MMORPG's! All the CRYING and WHINING for BALANCE has turned MMORPG games into bland and boring themepark games with classes with NO distiction, NO uniqueness! All for the sake of PvE and the futile attempts to BALANCE it!

That's why I have grown to hate the MMORPG genre, and especially the whining PVP playerbase over the years with GREAT passion!

 

People REALLY need to STOP complaining, getting rid of the SELFISH 1 versus 1 PvE mentality!  MMORPG's are no FPS games! They are RPG's!!!

 

It really saddens me, to see what the genre and a large portion of the playerbase has come down to.

That the only thing they care for these days, is COMPLAINING about 1 versus 1 PvE BALANCE!  Me, me, me an screw the rest!

I had to fix that for you.  While I can see where you think you are coming from, generally speaking - you are wrong.  The majority of the complaints come from the PvE side.

Tank Class A wants to tank as well as Tank Class B.

DPS Class C wants to DPS as well as DPS Class D.

Healing Class E wants to heal as well as Healing Class F.

The various arguments amongst classes such as Warriors and Rogues over who should do the most damage.  Then adding in the ranged classes.  These guys are always squabbling and arguing over things such as this.

People do not run damage meters for PvP.  They run them for PvE.  The same goes for healing.  Players are always arguing over the PvE side of the game - they want everybody to be the same, to be able to do everything the same - everything homogenized.

They do not accept that perhaps there are other factors or attributes involved in their characters.  They realize that encounters are basically gear checks and DPS races.  So they have devolved into bickering in the manner that they have...

I always kind of laugh when folks try to point the finger at the few PvP folks, when the vast majority of the issues arise from those huge PvE communities crying amongst themselves that JoeBob did 1 more DPS than they did so either JoeBob needs a nerf and they need a buff (or preferrably, both - since they actually have no sense of game balance and want to wave their epeens around for all to admire)....

On the PVE side it's only the tiny 0,1% of the playerbase (the hardcore min/max Raiders) who complain about such things.

You know it and I know it.

The vast and most vocal complains, causing the extreme "NERF" sledgehammers in MMORPG's, is due to the PVP'ers!

Simply, because those PVP'ers only look from their very narrow minded 1 versus 1 PVP perspective!

Their class MUST be able to beat any other class. The other one thinks that THEIR class MUST be able to beat any other class. Etc. Etc.

It's EXACTLY what is happening in RIFT right now. Trion has been slamming the nerf hammer into their once unique soul system to such extremes, that most soul trees have become completely obsolete and useless!

All because of PVP complaints!  NOT from PVE side!

The same thing happened in WoW or any other MMO out there that has PVP.

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Originally posted by tawess

As an old SWG player this fills me with dread... As balacing this will be absolute nightmare (that is the real reason behinde the NGE btw... They never figured out how to balance the skill system) but i wish them the best of luck.

Fuck balance.   Not every character needs to perform in the exact same capacity as everyone else in every situation.  Even attempting to do so would be stupid.  Build your character to suit your playstyle and enjoy it!

My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by VirusDancer
...snip...

On the PVE side it's only the tiny 0,1% of the playerbase (the hardcore min/max Raiders) who complain about such things.

You know it and I know it.

The vast and most vocal complains, causing the extreme "NERF" sledgehammers in MMORPG's, is due to the PVP'ers!

Simply, because those PVP'ers only look from their very narrow minded 1 versus 1 PVP perspective!

Their class MUST be able to beat any other class. The other one thinks that THEIR class MUST be able to beat any other class. Etc. Etc.

It's EXACTLY what is happening in RIFT right now. Trion has been slamming the nerf hammer into their once unique soul system to such extremes, that most soul trees have become completely obsolete and useless!

All because of PVP complaints!  NOT from PVE side!

The same thing happened in WoW or any other MMO out there that has PVP.

I do not know that in the least.  Thus, the reason I stated what I did.  The games are PvE games.  The changes generally reflect PvE changes.  PvE changes are brought about by PvE players.

PvP in most games is an afterthought.  Imagine sitting down to dinner at a restaurant.  You might have a nice thick steak, some fries or potatoes or the like.  There'll be a sprig of parsley too perhaps.  PvP is that sprig of parsley.

Look at the dev attention given to PvP sections of forums.  I know, I know...it is time consuming to find any.

Look at patch notes for various games for items addressing PvP specifically.  Again, I know...it is time consuming to find any.

Your obvious distaste for PvP does not change that.  Your narrowminded view of it...does not change that.

Step back, open your eyes, and realize that the issue with balance arises from the PvE side and with PvE players.

PvE is the largest part of the game.  PvE players make up the largest playerbase within the game.  They are the most vocal.  They get the most dev attention... it's that simple.

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Originally posted by tawess

As an old SWG player this fills me with dread... As balacing this will be absolute nightmare (that is the real reason behinde the NGE btw... They never figured out how to balance the skill system) but i wish them the best of luck.

Fuck balance.   Not every character needs to perform in the exact same capacity as everyone else in every situation.  Even attempting to do so would be stupid.  Build your character to suit your playstyle and enjoy it!

My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by gimmesome

My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

I have to agree here, but I think in the big picture it's really both.

MMORPGs started out PVE only.    Even when PVP entered the picture, it was and still mostly is an afterthought or a "feature" in the generally PVE games.      At those times up till recently, it appears as though class balances were caused by PVP outcries.   "my class should be able to kill everyone"      But, from what I've noticed, when DAMAGE METERS and DPS CHARTS and HEALING CHARTS and all the PVP-style ranking systems entered the PVE world, the PVE players went nuts.   Those ranks and charts and e-sport statistic completely took over the importance of PVE content, and now dictate every choice made by PVE players (the end game pve)  -- This is where we are right now.      Class balances are now the cause of PVE outcries based on a PVP scoring and rating mechanic.    It's sad and funny to me, considering all the name calling PVE and PVP players use to belittle eachother.   Esp how PVE-only players think they are more mature and less competitive, even though everything having to do with PVE now directly resembles PVP competition.

Who's DPS is higher?  Who's Gearscore is higher?  Who's Healing is higher? Who's threat management is better?  Who's damage reduction is stronger?  epeen epeenepeen

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by gimmesome

My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

I have to agree here, but I think in the big picture it's really both.

MMORPGs started out PVE only.    Even when PVP entered the picture, it was and still mostly is an afterthought or a "feature" in the generally PVE games.      At those times up till recently, it appears as though class balances were caused by PVP outcries.   "my class should be able to kill everyone"      But, from what I've noticed, when DAMAGE METERS and DPS CHARTS and HEALING CHARTS and all the PVP-style ranking systems entered the PVE world, the PVE players went nuts.   Those ranks and charts and e-sport statistic completely took over the importance of PVE content, and now dictate every choice made by PVE players (the end game pve)  -- This is where we are right now.      Class balances are now the cause of PVE outcries based on a PVP scoring and rating mechanic.    It's sad and funny to me, considering all the name calling PVE and PVP players use to belittle eachother.   Esp how PVE-only players think they are more mature and less competitive, even though everything having to do with PVE now directly resembles PVP competition.

Who's DPS is higher?  Who's Gearscore is higher?  Who's Healing is higher? Who's threat management is better?  Who's damage reduction is stronger?  epeen epeenepeen

My first MMORPG was UO - one of the first MMORPGs.  It most definitely was not PvE only.  I miss those days of hunting Reds as a PKK sometimes.

No doubt I agree that it is both PvE and PvP players which cause the problem...it is the playerbase.

It is kind of funny to go back to games like Shadowbane, where we would slaughter each other on sight - but we generally wanted a better game and that came across in the forums..  Course, that was back before ToO - not sure how the game changed after that.

The playerbase of MMOs has definitely changed...and not imho, for the better.

Still, TSW is the only game I'm looking forward to at this point.  GW2?  Nah, not in the least.  TOR?  Lol, nope.

I had enjoyed RIFT because of the ACS, but the devs so screwed that up by bouncing around with FotM - I left that at seven months.

I wish TSW was going more with a hybrid faction system along the lines of what EVE has.  I like the idea of both NPC and PC factions that matter.  The game is what it is though, and even with this - I'm still looking forward to it at this time.

edit: As much as people dislike Funcom, I still have great memories from playing AO.

I fully, 100% support class-less mmo's like TSW.... Think about it... if they nerf a skill/don't like it, change it out - easy -find a new way to play that suites you better, without having to reroll a character and start at level 1. MMO's grow and evolve, there will always be some skills that are better than others, I don't see why that's a problem.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

My first MMORPG was UO - one of the first MMORPGs.  It most definitely was not PvE only.  I miss those days of hunting Reds as a PKK sometimes.

No doubt I agree that it is both PvE and PvP players which cause the problem...it is the playerbase.

It is kind of funny to go back to games like Shadowbane, where we would slaughter each other on sight - but we generally wanted a better game and that came across in the forums..  Course, that was back before ToO - not sure how the game changed after that.

The playerbase of MMOs has definitely changed...and not imho, for the better.

True enough.   A lot of vets will swear that UO was actually "THE" first, but it technically wasn't, but in terms of accessibility and popularity, it may as well have been; or at least labelled as the 'FLAGSHIP' of the MMORPG genre.  That being said, it proves both of our points.    

In EQ, everyone was virtually on the same side and the progression was based on teamwork and patience and adventure. There was no METERS and GAUGES and other superficial systems in place forcing the players to pay attention to numbers instead of situation and outcome.

In UO, PVP was rampant and there were plenty of people working against everyone else. BUT -  PVP was for fun.  for RP.  For thrills. For excitement and the rush.  it was a bonus that one could possibly find some good loot on a slain opponent.   This is why imo there wasn't a big deal about some builds being "stronger" than others - A player's progression, even in terms of itemization was not dependant on their success or failure in a pvp encounter.     

In Today's MMOGLs, the very reason to PVP (designed by development) is to get better gear to enhance your characters' performance/power.   

In Today's MMOGLs, the very reason to PVE (designed by development) is to get better gear to enhance your characters' meter logs 

So, in that regard, I guess it's no wonder that players on both sides of the spectrum cry for constant balances, tweaks, and nerfs.     Someone's always getting in the way of their shiny loots.   They care so much about every inch of 'fairness' between classes because their own character's progression depends on the ability to hold it's own against everyone else, and it seems like the further along we go into this genre, the more that becomes the only way available to progress and even customize our characters.

Played Meridian 59 long before UO..Full loot PVP with permanent red flags for PK's etc etc.

UO owes ALOT from Meridian.

VirusDancer you're so correct >>

Tank Class A wants to tank as well as Tank Class B.

DPS Class C wants to DPS as well as DPS Class D.

Healing Class E wants to heal as well as Healing Class F.

The various arguments amongst classes such as Warriors and Rogues over who should do the most damage.  Then adding in the ranged classes.  These guys are always squabbling and arguing over things such as this.

People do not run damage meters for PvP.  They run them for PvE.  The same goes for healing.  Players are always arguing over the PvE side of the game - they want everybody to be the same, to be able to do everything the same - everything homogenized.<<<

Class balance is impossible to get, personally I'm looking forward to a skill based game.  As others have said if they change/nerf/remove a skill - learn a new one.

TSW is going ot be awesome if FunCom puts out the product I know they can versus the mess AoC was at launch.

I appreciate MMORPG.com fostering the conveyance of the tidbits of info the developers choose to release but ever since Rift the prerelease/preorder hype building has become worse than Christmas marketing machine the day after Oct 31st.  The "exclusive" interviews and limted "hands on" columns really don't mean much.   What matters to me are the hard reviews that are eventually released -often very late after actual public release-  by this site.  I read a few reviews from several sources and then make my informed decision to spend $50.00 to jump with my free month.

If an MMO with a cash shop kills it for you, you may be able to play 1% of all MMO's out there, since pretty much every MMO has a cash shop. Since this game is  not F2P the game wont be pay to win.

But all in all, I find it awesome that they are not making a cookie cutter game and trying out new concepts and ideas, I hope things go well for them for not making the standard fantasy tab targett, talent tree MMO

It would seem to me after reading most peoples negative thoughts on every other future mmo (swotor,gw2,etc) it would seem that this should be the focus mmo. It pretty famn far removed from the dreaded WOW experience. Cash shop seem like a rather small allowance for what this game is going to provide!

Originally posted by loopback1199

Originally posted by Elricmerren

Originally posted by czekoskwigel

Originally posted by tawess

"the Secret World doesn’t believe in classes, and neither does it in levels. What replaces these are the skills which are selectable from a huge list, each offering perks and advantages, whilst also giving the ability to choose your own role within the game."

 

As an old SWG player this fills me with dread... As balacing this will be absolute nightmare (that is the real reason behinde the NGE btw... They never figured out how to balance the skill system) but i wish them the best of luck.

Fuck balance.   Not every character needs to perform in the exact same capacity as everyone else in every situation.  Even attempting to do so would be stupid.  Build your character to suit your playstyle and enjoy it!

 True but it is just bad design not to attempt to minimize the advantage and disadvantage you have from a characetr to character basis. Having a character that under proforms by too much would reduce how much you enjoy the game even if by a slght amount. Keeping thigns close mind you not equal is a good way of allowing people to enjoy and feel competitive. Balance is need to keeep people eing able to play as they wish wihtout feeling they are draging behind or causing others to be annoyed in a group.  You be in a group and get complained and talked down to about hwo you made dumb choices that are not making waisted time in a group, i would rather they keep the differece in between build close with alot fo nique styles and choice being viable.

 

In real life you didn't have to work at mcdonalds =P You could have done anything you wanted, be it a lawyer, doctor, waste collector, etc. You picked your skills and went with it, why should a game be any different? People might talk down to a burger flipper, but at the end of the day those talking down still shelled out the cash for the food. Doesn't matter what 'level' you are or how skilled you might think someone else is, so long as your not some panhandling bum, you've probably got something someone else needs no matter how littel used it might seem. I'm hoping this game is no different. It would be a nice change to not have the pathetic healer/tank/dps builds that every other game ALWAYS has to have. Besides, even in those types of games, a better strategy almost always beat the buttons being spammed.

 Real life is real life tthough if you look at it those within a simular carrear choice or job are relatively equal in alot of regards. One lawer and another might have different levels of knowledge, yet alot of them will stay pretty close by their peers/equals to stay competitive. The games are about enjoyment for many people, which many want to merely be competitive in thier chosen job with others in their same job since they both do the same job.  It would be like having a group of workers in a mine working three times long for half as much, compared to another group of mners that works less while ganing more  out of thee sheer fact of their choice in which company to work for. IS it fair as well as enjoyable to not allow those that feel they have been given a raw deal a chance to better their situation? IF you have any buld that is severlly under proforming (mnd you severly meaning comletely unviable and laughable.) then that buld or builds should be buffed up to being viable so that it can proform it's job like others with a simular job can. THis is taking into account two dps with over the same job no cc or buffs really that differ between them; why should class A that is a copy of class B with a slight dffernce in styles as well as play be hugely better and more viable then class B?