Originally posted by xKingdomx

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Character progression and Gear progression is the exact same thing:  you get better stats, that's it.

...snip....

What you are using as an example is player skill progression, not character progression. If you are right, that means if I drive more I will eventually be as good as him, which isn't the case here.

 No, that was not the case.  My apologies if that is how it came across.  Tony Stewart and nerf would be the characters.  They are not players.  I'm not talking about player skill progression.  I'm talking about character.  A character could progress well, but if the player has no clue how to play that character or a character could be subpar but the player knows how to play that character to it's fullest - is not part of what I'm discussing in the least.

Character progression ingame doesn't pose any challenge because it acts as a guideline as to how player is progression through the game, you are expected to reach the end of the progression, where gear progression provides a grind challenge which comes after you hit the top of the character progression (lets be honest here, you can pretty much use quest gear for 90% MMORPG till endgame, if that is what people call gear progression, I will quit all my MMO game right now), thus MMO doesn't really pose a real challenge other than a game for grinding patience and numerical speadsheet skills.

 Do you know not see the issue with what you have said here?  The very thing you lambast with your last sentence is what gear progression is.  People doing the same thing over and over, grinding out instances to try to get the BIS gear based on some spreadsheet...um, hello?

Character progression is about how your character progresses.  Character progression in of itself is not supposed to pose any challenge.  The challenges your character faces arise as he or she progresses.

Character Progression - the character gets better with their gear.

Gear Progression - the character stagnates as the gear gets better.

As long as there are simple character progression like levels and combat with pure numerical factors such as aggro and dps to dictate the outcome of battles, you can expect gear progression to be just right there with it. Gear progression is a manifestation of MMORPG players obessions with numbers, they blame lag and want a combat system where they can 'plan' their strategy, planning is 50% of strategy, the other half is how you deal with surprise events, which is what MMO players call twitch. As much players don't want to admit it, twitch is a huge factor in any realistic and competitive combat, pure numbers can't do everything.

PnP RPGs were about character progression.  EVE Online is a character progression MMO.  UO was.  SWG was.  One could make the argument for many of the older games, that even though there was also gear progression - there was still character progression.

Gear Progression is a disease that has turned MMORPGs into silly MMOGLs.  Character is forgotten...

 

Originally posted by Nerf09

Back to the original post before it was hijacked by the Gang of Irrelevant Information Bureau (GIIB),

what do you prefer?

-----Character progression (Which also includes gear progression)

Or

------Wealth progression?  (Castles, houses, factories, peons npcs, miner npcs, soldier npcs, dungeons, a business)

 

Wealth Progression is the same as Character Progression....

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Back to the original post before it was hijacked by the Gang of Irrelevant Information Bureau (GIIB),

what do you prefer?

-----Character progression (Which also includes gear progression)

Or

------Wealth progression?  (Castles, houses, factories, peons npcs, miner npcs, soldier npcs, dungeons, a business)

 

Wealth Progression is the same as Character Progression....

We might as well say that...if we treat wealth progression the same way the OP treats character progression.  That is, reduce it to one single small component, instead of the overarching category it is.  So let's just say from here on out that wealth progression = any game where you earn money.  I wonder how the OP would feel about that.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Nerf09

Back to the original post before it was hijacked by the Gang of Irrelevant Information Bureau (GIIB),

what do you prefer?

-----Character progression (Which also includes gear progression)

Or

------Wealth progression?  (Castles, houses, factories, peons npcs, miner npcs, soldier npcs, dungeons, a business)

 

Wealth Progression is the same as Character Progression....

We might as well say that...if we treat wealth progression the same way the OP treats character progression.  That is, reduce it to one single small component, instead of the overarching category it is.  So let's just say from here on out that wealth progression = any game where you earn money.  I wonder how the OP would feel about that.

It is curious, that the OP has tried to maintain their argument in the manner in which they have - when several of us have given the OP outs in regard to the argument... the key somewhat being tactical vs. strategic.

To an extent, one could say the OP is asking the following:

What do you prefer?

FPS Progression

OR

RTS Progression

So perhaps it is just a case of us getting caught up in the semantics of the argument, but we have tried to get the OP to agree to common terms that all could use rather than persist with his or her subjective terms that almost everybody has had a problem with...

Perhaps we could look at it from the auspice of what kind of god would you be?  Are you the big picture kind that is working the deal as some kind of mastermind or are you dropping an avatar on the ground to handle things face to face?

There are so many ways to look at this; but I just do not see it in the way that the OP has addressed it.

Regardless of that, even the question itself presents a problem...as we have seen with some of the replies in the thread.  Some people want both.  Yes, the OP is asking for a preference - but it is also more a case of if you could only have one.  Choose.

Right there, you are imparting a limitation - and well - people are going to rebel against something like that.

Imagine where we would be if the question posed was this:

Do you prefer vanilla ice cream or apple pie?

What would have happened to pie a la mode...?

Originally posted by VirusDancer

 

Wealth Progression is the same as Character Progression....

In WOW-clone owning a house, or owning a POS in Eve Online, is endgame content, yeah it is the same as character progression in a wow-clone. 

But that's not what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by xKingdomx

What are you asking for right now is the same old same old.

Really, in what game is there no character progression but you can own land and NPC's, including NPC resource gatherers (peons).

Very few. Most of the conquest based PBBGs used to be that way but they have long since added hero characters that one can advance, as well.

Have you tried Civ World? It's a lot like what you suggest there.

Outside of MMO's, all Real Time Strategy games are zero character progression + pure wealth progression games.  The goal in RTS is to own more land close to resources and defend it, well if you're interested in having a fun game and not grinding on crack-speed on a ladder (SC2).

CivWorld? I just googled it.  No.  It will somehow be fucked up like Age of Empires Online was fucked up.  Especially if it's a facebook game.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.

 

Oh so you're one of those types who think gaining 50 hitpoitns from leveling up is totally different than gaining 50 hitpoints from a piece of gear.   I see.  Must be 2 types of hitpoints.

Your argument then is that if two systems have numerical advancement then they are no different from each other. This sucks... you're not even trying anymore. :'(

There's no difference, a hitpoint is a hitpoint.

"Character progression", you are progressing you're single avatar with levels or gear (or even instanced housing that only affects you and you're singular avatar and nobody else), doesn't make a difference in the big picture. 

Character progression:

-Levels

-Gear (especially in this bind on equip/pickup world)

-Instanced or quasi instanced housing that effects nobody but you're character

-Crafting bind on pickup, or crafting systems that only affects your character and only your character.  In WOW you sell very very little of what you craft, effectively making most of WOW crafting system a form of Character Progression.

-Any activity that increase the ooberness of your singular character and only affects your character, and there are lots of them in wow-clone.

Wealth progression:

-Anything you acquire that is fungible.

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Nerf09

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

Shhh, Homitu! He thinks he's actually pulling this one off. Let him keep going. It's more fun letting him think he's got everyone snowed.

 

Oh so you're one of those types who think gaining 50 hitpoitns from leveling up is totally different than gaining 50 hitpoints from a piece of gear.   I see.  Must be 2 types of hitpoints.

Your argument then is that if two systems have numerical advancement then they are no different from each other. This sucks... you're not even trying anymore. :'(

There's no difference, a hitpoint is a hitpoint.

"Character progression", you are progressing you're single avatar with levels or gear (or even instanced housing that only affects you and you're singular avatar and nobody else), doesn't make a difference in the big picture. 

 

 

Character progression:

-Levels

-Gear (especially in this bind on equip/pickup world)

-Instanced or quasi instanced housing that effects nobody but you're character

-Crafting bind on pickup, or crafting systems that only affects your character and only your character.  In WOW you sell very very little of what you craft, effectively making most of WOW crafting system a form of Character Progression.

-Any activity that increase the ooberness of your singular character and only affects your character, and there are lots of them in wow-clone.

 

Wealth progression:

-Anything you acquire that is fungible.

 That red area is debated that gaining more gear, crafting, or levels does not effect anyone but you. Since as a tank or other role the more gear you gain the more you contribte to the group and as such the farther you as well as the group may progress in the field of what you are doing. I am not sure abotu you but when i was in wow i sold just abotu twice what i crafted in gear or items for myself on the ah or thru trades. I actually spent as much time crafting (this fell off after halfway thru lk though) gear as well as other items gfor both my guildies, players, and just to gain wealth to gain more of what i needed. HOW each player plays their character will change the definition. For instance two characters gain gear in a instance, one of them goes around showing it off to get into more raidss, while the other player uses his added gear to help others increase their own gear via his help. THis is two sides of character progression wih one being selfish, and one being selfless overall.

With regards to your "Instanced or quasi instanced housing that effects nobody but you're character" is alittle since it is kind counter to what most as you would put want in a wow-clone which is being more ubber (ie showing off your gear and achievements to the world seeing hwo you are better then them.)

I am not sure abotu you but when i was in wow i sold just abotu twice what i crafted in gear or items for myself on the ah or thru trades.
 

That's funny cause most players spend a vast majority of their time leveling up their crafting skill, vendoring crafted items (or just destroying their crafted items cause it's cheaper to destroy them than to walk 30 seconds to a vendor), and then losing money at the AH cause raw materials cost more than finished product.

The only time I made money at the AH was the disenchant Lifebound Alchemist Stones into Maelstrom Crystals exploit, before it was closed a couple months after Cataclysm.  What exploit did you make money on in your crafting profession?

Eve Online has the same economy as WOW, raw materials are more valuable than finished product.  Mine away.

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Originally posted by Nerf09

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I am not sure abotu you but when i was in wow i sold just abotu twice what i crafted in gear or items for myself on the ah or thru trades.
 

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That's funny cause most players spend a vast majority of their time leveling up their crafting skill, vendoring crafted items (or just destroying their crafted items cause it's cheaper to destroy them than to walk 30 seconds to a vendor), and then losing money at the AH cause raw materials cost more than finished product.
The only time I made money at the AH was the disenchant Lifebound Alchemist Stones into Maelstrom Crystals exploit, before it was closed a couple months after Cataclysm.  What exploit did you make money on in your crafting profession?
Eve Online has the same economy as WOW, raw materials are more valuable than finished product.  Mine away.

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Yea...gotta love games, nothing like an accutal ecconomy...selling products for less than the base material cost o.O

Originally posted by skyexile

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Yea...gotta love games, nothing like an accutal ecconomy...selling products for less than the base material cost o.O

It is an issue with gear progression games.  You get better gear from questing, dungeons, raiding, PVP.  Crafting is almost meaningless in many games other than a side thing to do (or for certain things like pots and bags).  EVE's economy, as an aside, I believe was screwed by the introduction of PLEX and thus pseudo-RMTs.