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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » i have a feeling gw2 dynamic events will be no better than rifts or PQs

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222 posts found
  Zooce

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 588

10/24/11 9:25:52 AM#61
Originally posted by bishbosh 

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub. 

Dynamic events that repeat are exciting at first, but become an annoying burden in the end.  As you mentioned, the invasions in Rift become a grind when you are farming planarite and are just plain annoying when you just need to turn in a quest but the NPC's are all dead because the population in that zone is low and you are the only one even participating in the invasion.

 

Dynamic content to me is when a dev takes control of some insanely difficult monster and wreaks havoc.  Scripted events just aren't enough.

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2696

10/24/11 9:29:23 AM#62
Originally posted by bishbosh

fact: gw2 will not be truly dynamic since it is not a sandbox

however

the illusion of a dynamic world can be created by having a large variety of events so that the same event does not occur for a couple of months after it first occured. 

 

i really doubt gw2 will have enough unique events to even create an illusion of a dynamic world. from what i have seen the

-shatterer will respawn repeatedly in the same location every time

-the same centaurs will raid the same human city every single time

- the same pirates will attack the same city every single time

 

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub.

 

 


I hate people who use the word fact when its not a fact.

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

10/24/11 9:35:15 AM#63

One more point I need to add. Since these Dynamic Events are designed to possibilitate the participation of multiple people at the same time, you can't have very specific objectives like the ones possible in a traditional questing system because your success ultimately depends on the culmination of the efforts of many people. Therefore, if you have an objective containing extremely fine details, you are destined to fail because not everyone that steps into a Dynamic Event will cooperate or act in coordination and harmony with others. The objectives will always need to be crude, as I have stated so many times.

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

10/24/11 9:37:11 AM#64
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by bishbosh

fact: gw2 will not be truly dynamic since it is not a sandbox

however

the illusion of a dynamic world can be created by having a large variety of events so that the same event does not occur for a couple of months after it first occured. 

 

i really doubt gw2 will have enough unique events to even create an illusion of a dynamic world. from what i have seen the

-shatterer will respawn repeatedly in the same location every time

-the same centaurs will raid the same human city every single time

- the same pirates will attack the same city every single time

 

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub.

 

 


I hate people who use the word fact when its not a fact.

He is right though... Guild Wars 2 will never be truly dynamic since that would imply the complete lack of anything static, and that is simply impossible with its current design.

  User Deleted
10/24/11 9:38:04 AM#65

So I was standing in a town minding my own business, when suddenly voices started calling out and fire erupted all around me.  Npc's started warning of an impending attack and suddently an enemy began shouting and attacking.  Out of nowhere we started a new mechanic began where we took water buckets and started dousing the flames.  Wow...that was dynamic.

It was the Headless Horsemen event in WoW in Goldshire LOL

Dynamic events are dynamic...ONCE.  After that, they become old hat.  

 

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2696

10/24/11 9:40:39 AM#66
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by bishbosh

fact: gw2 will not be truly dynamic since it is not a sandbox

however

the illusion of a dynamic world can be created by having a large variety of events so that the same event does not occur for a couple of months after it first occured. 

 

i really doubt gw2 will have enough unique events to even create an illusion of a dynamic world. from what i have seen the

-shatterer will respawn repeatedly in the same location every time

-the same centaurs will raid the same human city every single time

- the same pirates will attack the same city every single time

 

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub.

 

 


I hate people who use the word fact when its not a fact.

He is right though... Guild Wars 2 will never be truly dynamic since that would imply the complete lack of anything static, and that is simply impossible with its current design.


What game is truly dynamic? guild wars 2 has dynamic content so he is wrong.

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2696

10/24/11 9:41:31 AM#67
Originally posted by MMOtoGO

So I was standing in a town minding my own business, when suddenly voices started calling out and fire erupted all around me.  Npc's started warning of an impending attack and suddently an enemy began shouting and attacking.  Out of nowhere we started a new mechanic began where we took water buckets and started dousing the flames.  Wow...that was dynamic.

It was the Headless Horsemen event in WoW in Goldshire LOL

Dynamic events are dynamic...ONCE.  After that, they become old hat.  

 

Yes but they are still dynamic even if you find them boring.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

10/24/11 9:46:29 AM#68
Originally posted by stealthbr
*snip*

...

My point is that with Dynamic Events, where you have to be able to accomodate multiple players at the same, the objectives deal entirely with quantities of X, but in a very crude manner because these objectives need to be scalable. The objectives will never deal with something tailored to the individual, losing depth and specificity. I'll try and provide a better example:

You are tasked by your faction leader to infiltrate an enemy camp with the use of a disguise to assassinate their chieftain in a way that it looks like he suffered an accident, to avoid turmoil and a general riot from beginning. In a Dynamic Event system, this quest would not work because you would need multiple people infiltrating the same camp at the same time to kill one guy. Not only would this approach be tactically unsound and impossible, you would not be able to scale the objective of killing their leader because there is only one leader. Specificity impossibilitates the ability to do quests "pubicly".

What happens when you can't make objectives too specific or too tailored to an individual? The system can only make use of objectives with scalable quantities, and that is a severe limit that eventually leads to repetition within the gameplay experience itself.

And like I just said... that's all handle in the personal story. Heck, I've seen seen a video similar to the example you gave, where the player and his/her companion goes into stealth in order to follow some NPCs back to their hideout and assassinate their leader. So you're concerns are pretty much unfounded. If you don't like the fact that the Dynamic Events are limited, in some ways, to accomodate large groups of players then just stick to the personal story and enjoy it as if it were a singleplayer MMO.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

10/24/11 9:48:43 AM#69
Originally posted by stealthbr

One more point I need to add. Since these Dynamic Events are designed to possibilitate the participation of multiple people at the same time, you can't have very specific objectives like the ones possible in a traditional questing system because your success ultimately depends on the culmination of the efforts of many people. Therefore, if you have an objective containing extremely fine details, you are destined to fail because not everyone that steps into a Dynamic Event will cooperate or act in coordination and harmony with others. The objectives will always need to be crude, as I have stated so many times.

PERSONAL STORY... look it up. I'll keep repeating it until you get it into your head.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

10/24/11 9:49:26 AM#70

The only thing truly dynamic in ANY MMORPG is player versus player (in any form including combat, economics, etc.)

that doesn't mean GW2 events system is not a major, major leap forward in MMO design.

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

10/24/11 9:51:23 AM#71
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by stealthbr
*snip*

...

My point is that with Dynamic Events, where you have to be able to accomodate multiple players at the same, the objectives deal entirely with quantities of X, but in a very crude manner because these objectives need to be scalable. The objectives will never deal with something tailored to the individual, losing depth and specificity. I'll try and provide a better example:

You are tasked by your faction leader to infiltrate an enemy camp with the use of a disguise to assassinate their chieftain in a way that it looks like he suffered an accident, to avoid turmoil and a general riot from beginning. In a Dynamic Event system, this quest would not work because you would need multiple people infiltrating the same camp at the same time to kill one guy. Not only would this approach be tactically unsound and impossible, you would not be able to scale the objective of killing their leader because there is only one leader. Specificity impossibilitates the ability to do quests "pubicly".

What happens when you can't make objectives too specific or too tailored to an individual? The system can only make use of objectives with scalable quantities, and that is a severe limit that eventually leads to repetition within the gameplay experience itself.

And like I just said... that's all handle in the personal story. Heck, I've seen seen a video similar to the example you gave, where the player and his/her companion goes into stealth in order to follow some NPCs back to their hideout and assassinate their leader. So you're concerns are pretty much unfounded. If you don't like the fact that the Dynamic Events are limited, in some ways, to accomodate large groups of players then just stick to the personal story and enjoy it as if it were a singleplayer MMO.

You can't do Personal Stories all the way from 1-80. Not only that, Dynamic Events are a MAJOR selling point of this game and some people rever it like the most amazing innovation. To not take part in them would be like not experiecing half of the game. However, there are some major flaws with this system, and I am here to show my preocupations, yet you seem rather oblivious.

  phantiasmic

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/11
Posts: 38

10/24/11 9:51:44 AM#72

It would be tough to get absolute dynamic in an mmorpg I think anyway... however at least in GW2 here is a difference.

I played Rift for about 4 months. The events were very fun I think but even if enemies took over it would be for a short time then they would all vanish and world would be the same.

They have stated in GW2 this is not the case, if centaurs do take over, they will remain in control as long as it takes until someone comes and changes it. 

THAT to me at the very least makes it a little more realistic, at least it has an element of realism at it's core. 

Because every game of any time will have some repetition no matter what.

- I have played Everquest, DAOC, Shadowbane, WoW, Aion, Rift, SW Galaxies, Planetside and Guild Wars (all expacs)

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

10/24/11 9:54:28 AM#73
Originally posted by Zooce
*snip*

Dynamic events that repeat are exciting at first, but become an annoying burden in the end.  As you mentioned, the invasions in Rift become a grind when you are farming planarite and are just plain annoying when you just need to turn in a quest but the NPC's are all dead because the population in that zone is low and you are the only one even participating in the invasion.

And what quests would you need to hand in that the dynamic events prevent you from handing in?

 

If you haven't guessed it, then the answer is "none".

 

The thing about GW2 is that it provides viable options. If I get bored of doing Dynamic Events then I have the choice of: Dungeons, Personal Story & World v World World as a viable form of progression. Where Rift failed is that doing the quests was the only viable form of progression. Everything else was filler.

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

10/24/11 9:55:21 AM#74
Originally posted by nerovipus32


What game is truly dynamic? guild wars 2 has dynamic content so he is wrong.

I do not know of any online game that is truly dynamic, but that was not the point he made. He said that Guild Wars 2 is not truly dynamic, since it has multiple elements that are static, predictable, and unchangeable. The Dynamic Event systems is far from being truly dynamic because you can only influence them to a certain, limited point. Therefore, Guild Wars 2 is not truly dynamic.

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

10/24/11 9:57:04 AM#75
Originally posted by MMOtoGO

So I was standing in a town minding my own business, when suddenly voices started calling out and fire erupted all around me.  Npc's started warning of an impending attack and suddently an enemy began shouting and attacking.  Out of nowhere we started a new mechanic began where we took water buckets and started dousing the flames.  Wow...that was dynamic.

It was the Headless Horsemen event in WoW in Goldshire LOL

Dynamic events are dynamic...ONCE.  After that, they become old hat.  

 

If that were all there was to the events in GW2, I would agree with you. GW2 events will continue to be dynamic long after the first time you play through a zone.

 

I think one of the reasons people compare the "dynamic" events in Rift with GW2, and can't really see the difference, is because they don't really understand what is dynamic about GW2's events in the first place. The event itself (i.e. the centaurs attack the town) is the LEAST dynamic part of GW2's dynamic events. That's the part which is comparable to Rift or WoW...because both those games (and actually most MMOs) have a bit of content that happens actively and you take part.

 

What IS different about GW2's events, and what makes them much more dynamic, is how the events chain together based on outcomes or other variables, how the events scale based on the number of players participating, and how the events have persistent effects on the world nearby.

 

The events in GW2 aren't side content that spawns or doesn't spawn and just happens statically the same way every time. Multiple events are connected together across each zone, and affect each other. If you fail one event, it will set off a chain in another direction or a different event. If you succeed at another, the chain goes the other direction or sets of different chains. This means that the content taking place in a zone can be dramatically different based on what players are doing in the zone...not just present or absent, like in Rift...but actually whole different events.

 

Events scale actively, moment to moment, based on player participation. The scaling seems to be pretty complex, in that it can increase/decrease the number of mobs, the power of the mobs, and even the abilities the mobs use. I'm guessing the non-combat elements will also scale as well. This is very different from Rift or WoW.... getting to a later stage in a Rift event didn't change the event at all...it happened the same way every time no matter how many players show up. You might see more or less of it...but it doesn't actually CHANGE like events will in GW2.

 

Events will have persistent effects on the game. If a village gets taken over, it will stay taken over and the centaurs will start using the village as a jumping-off point to attack additional locations. If the farmer's grain fields get burned, the merchants won't have bread until players help push back the baddies. These elements mean that locations in the game will be different in many ways depending on the current state of the dynamic events. Again, this is actually change, not just presence/absence like in Rift... where a quest hub might get overrun and then minutes later be normal again.

 

Of course the game isn't going to be COMPLETELY dynamic... some things need to be static in order for people to even be able to tell what they are doing. Cities need to stay in the same place, gravity needs to work the same way, etc. The real world isn't completely dynamic, either. GW2 will be a lot more dynamic than any previous game, especially since the bulk of the content in the game is made up of these events.

 

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1058

10/24/11 9:58:04 AM#76
Originally posted by Master10K

And what quests would you need to hand in that the dynamic events prevent you from handing in?

 

If you haven't guessed it, then the answer is "none".

 

The thing about GW2 is that it provides viable options. If I get bored of doing Dynamic Events then I have the choice of: Dungeons, Personal Story & World v World World as a viable form of progression. Where Rift failed is that doing the quests was the only viable form of progression. Everything else was filler.

Yes, because time is the answer to everything.... If you take some time off from doing Dynamic Events because they became boring, a week later you can go back to them because they'll feel fine and dandy. Yep...

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

10/24/11 10:03:41 AM#77
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by stealthbr
*snip*

...

My point is that with Dynamic Events, where you have to be able to accomodate multiple players at the same, the objectives deal entirely with quantities of X, but in a very crude manner because these objectives need to be scalable. The objectives will never deal with something tailored to the individual, losing depth and specificity. I'll try and provide a better example:

You are tasked by your faction leader to infiltrate an enemy camp with the use of a disguise to assassinate their chieftain in a way that it looks like he suffered an accident, to avoid turmoil and a general riot from beginning. In a Dynamic Event system, this quest would not work because you would need multiple people infiltrating the same camp at the same time to kill one guy. Not only would this approach be tactically unsound and impossible, you would not be able to scale the objective of killing their leader because there is only one leader. Specificity impossibilitates the ability to do quests "pubicly".

What happens when you can't make objectives too specific or too tailored to an individual? The system can only make use of objectives with scalable quantities, and that is a severe limit that eventually leads to repetition within the gameplay experience itself.

And like I just said... that's all handle in the personal story. Heck, I've seen seen a video similar to the example you gave, where the player and his/her companion goes into stealth in order to follow some NPCs back to their hideout and assassinate their leader. So you're concerns are pretty much unfounded. If you don't like the fact that the Dynamic Events are limited, in some ways, to accomodate large groups of players then just stick to the personal story and enjoy it as if it were a singleplayer MMO.

You can't do Personal Stories all the way from 1-80. Not only that, Dynamic Events are a MAJOR selling point of this game and some people rever it like the most amazing innovation. To not take part in them would be like not experiecing half of the game. However, there are some major flaws with this system, and I am here to show my preocupations, yet you seem rather oblivious.

But you can supplement the personal story with Dungeons, that also offer their own tailored storytelling experience.

 

Also who said I was oblivious of the limitations with the Dynamic Events system? Earlier today I answered a person's question, highlighting another limitation of DEs. So no, I'm not sticking my head in the sand, to avoid the issues with DEs. I just look at how they would play out in the bigger picture, without isolating it as it's own game, like you seem to be doing. Guild Wars 2 will come with a buttload of features so why are you singling out Dynamic Events as if it's the "be all end all" of Guild Wars 2.

 

Also in every single convention panel, ArenaNet always highlight 3 key areas, that they are trying to innovate: Personal Story, Dynamic Events & Combat. So no... they aren't just pushing DEs.

  Requiem6

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/09
Posts: 243

10/24/11 10:05:04 AM#78
Originally posted by bishbosh

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub.

 

 

Except the fact that they already confirmed that IT WILL NOT BE LIKE THIS. Well no, it will not be like this.

 

And lol at @ it can't be a real dynamic game because it's not a sandbox... So many overused word for no reason.

  User Deleted
10/24/11 10:06:45 AM#79
Originally posted by Requiem6
Originally posted by bishbosh

seems it will be like invasions in rift (mundane and repetitive); if i kill this boss he will be back in an hour and if i dont kill him he will occupy some trivial quest hub.

 

 

Except the fact that they already confirmed that IT WILL NOT BE LIKE THIS. Well no, it will not be like this.

 

And lol at @ it can't be a real dynamic game because it's not a sandbox... So many overused word for no reason.

Everything cycles...they have confirmed this.  The boss will eventually respawn once the full cycle of zone chains is complete.  

  User Deleted
10/24/11 10:06:51 AM#80
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by AKASlaphappy
Originally posted by stealthbr

I'm not talking about repetition.

To the part in red really you are not?
 
Well it looks like you were the one that said it! Your reasoning here on why GW2 cannot do certain things with DEs is because it becomes redundant and stupid. I think anyone with half a brain on this website can find tons of things in themepark MMOs that are redundant and stupid! So if every other themepark MMO can do it, why can’t GW2? What because you say so?
 
 IF ANet can add an event in the game that has people answering riddles, then why can't they have someone get info from a prisoner? Since in the event with the riddles the riddles do not scale just the amount you have to do to get the objective done at that shrine scales. So why couldn’t ANet have an objective in the game to get info from a prisoner along with like 5 other things to help out a Charr Spy. Then to make it scalable you would just have to increase the amount people would need to do to fulfill what the spy wants. There you go there is a way to have that objective in GW2 and include scaling, and I have never even designed a game. Are you really trying to tell me that people that design games for a living cannot out think a person that likes playing games?
 
After all there is over 1500 DEs in this game at launch and until we play through all 1500 none of us know the limits of the design!

Let me rephrase did this for you apparently misunderstood what I meant to say. I'm not talking about repetition in the sense that I kill a monster, he respawns, and someone else kills him. Or I do a Dynamic Event, someone else comes, and does that same event. That is not the point since all online games are not entirely persistent.

My point is that with Dynamic Events, where you have to be able to accomodate multiple players at the same, the objectives deal entirely with quantities of X, but in a very crude manner because these objectives need to be scalable. The objectives will never deal with something tailored to the individual, losing depth and specificity. I'll try and provide a better example:

You are tasked by your faction leader to infiltrate an enemy camp with the use of a disguise to assassinate their chieftain in a way that it looks like he suffered an accident, to avoid turmoil and a general riot from beginning. In a Dynamic Event system, this quest would not work because you would need multiple people infiltrating the same camp at the same time to kill one guy. Not only would this approach be tactically unsound and impossible, you would not be able to scale the objective of killing their leader because there is only one leader. Specificity impossibilitates the ability to do quests "pubicly".

What happens when you can't make objectives too specific or too tailored to an individual? The system can only make use of objectives with scalable quantities, and that is a severe limit that eventually leads to repetition within the gameplay experience itself.

I don't know if you missed my earlier post, but I do partially agree with you.  DEs don't do the solo experience very well.  I agree that if you think back to some of the more unusual quests in WoW, there will probably be some that can't be done as a DE.  There is a tradeoff because DEs can do things quests can't; they actually happen, they're more immersive, they can be failed, have consequences and are scalable and repeatable.

That isn't to say that there aren't creative ways to mix up the content.  You can have a cave with a prisoner you need to rescue, where the number of mobs in the cave is scalable. 

We know there is an event where centaurs have prisoners where not only the number of centaurs attacking you is scalable, the toughness of the cell door you need to destroy is also scalable. 

For variety's sake, we might even be able to do something at least similar to what you're proposing.  When you enter an area, you get a message from a witch saying she's put an illusion on you so you can sneak past all the guards into the boss's room to kill him.  The boss himself is scalable and gains new abilities and such when more people fight him.  One problem with DEs is that they need to be ungriefable, so we can't have people be able to ruin the event by dropping the illusion and training a bunch of enemies inside, but maybe that could be worked around.

There's one WoW quest where you have to collect a bunch of mementos of an NPC's past from around the world, then use an illusion to get to him, convince him of the error of his ways and help him fight his way out.  With DEs you can't do all the prequests (unless they're in a chain down the road) but you could probably use the illusion to get to him, and any latecomers could use it to get to where the fight has already started.

I think escort DEs in general allow for a lot of variety of context.  Where a quest might have been "take this thing and go somewhere and do something", it can be "protect me while I go somewhere and do something."

And as I pointed out earlier, if they can make solving riddles into a DE, maybe there is more flexibility than we imagined.

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