Originally posted by Orious

For your last sentece... they do. The polished PvP games do. WoW, Rift, AoC are not PvP games, their mechanics are not developed enough for world PvP. They are PvE games with PvP turned on inside of them.

The currently developed PvP games are struggling because they thought players would love 100% freedom. The truth is, players do want it, but they just can't handle it. They should have first created risk, reward, and consequence to support an Open PvP world and then allowed PvP in the world. Games before seemed to understand this with some respects.

It's shallow to say that tourney games built for e-sports should have the same type of PvP mechanics as games built for massive and alternate realities.

 

Every fight I ever had in EVE or DF was a one-sided slaughter where one or the other side had zero hope of victory.  95% of world PVP fights I have in themeparks are the same.

If you take a 5v5 and suddenly let one side bring 5 more friends, that is not more balanced.  It's less balanced (or at best equal.)

And you make the common mistake of assuming MMORPGs aren't games.  They live or die on being good games.  Whether they're massive or alternate realities is simply irrelevant to most players.  Therefore the same rules of what makes PVP good apply (and it's clear that they've worked, given the popularity of WOW style PVP.)

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

You seem to be confusing what makes people interested in generic pvp with what makes a certain form of pvp popular. This might also be the reason you are still bringing up people with zero interest in pvp whatsoever when that has absolutely fuck all impact on the debate. 

People looking for pvp do so generally for the interaction against other players, that is present in all forms of player vs player be it open world or instanced. 

What makes instanced pvp in mmorpgs so very popular is they can get that interaction against other players on tap, when they want, all the time and suffer little to no consequences should they lose a match. The accessibility and ease of use is what drives the popularity as it enables people to sample player vs player contact without having to spend time plotting and planning it out.

 In fairness ganking and lopsided pvp occur a vast amount of the time in mmorpg instanced pvp and yet nobody moans about it, why? Because when you can just roll another match straight after and don't have to spend ages planning and setting up combat it doesn't make a difference. Which pretty much points to the fact that the popularity factor boils down to ease of use and accessibility 

The discussion, simply put, is this:

• World PVP isn't popular.
• Why? Because it's bad PVP.
• Why's it bad? The reasons I listed before, (worse, infrequent, and predetermined combat,) and probably some I missed.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Every fight I ever had in EVE or DF was a one-sided slaughter where one or the other side had zero hope of victory.  95% of world PVP fights I have in themeparks are the same.

If you take a 5v5 and suddenly let one side bring 5 more friends, that is not more balanced.  It's less balanced (or at best equal.)

And you make the common mistake of assuming MMORPGs aren't games.  They live or die on being good games.  Whether they're massive or alternate realities is simply irrelevant to most players.  Therefore the same rules of what makes PVP good apply (and it's clear that they've worked, given the popularity of WOW style PVP.)

Boom. Right there. You just exposed yourself.

If that was your experience in either of those games (both of which I have played extensively), you were either a) terrible at both games and quit before learning anything about them, or b) picked terrible corps/clans, and never really got to experience how great the PVP can be in either title.

Either way, when I read your incessant posts about PVP and sandboxes, I'm not going to able to take you seriously. You simply do not have the experience to know what the heck you're talking about.

Has it occurred to you that if you dismiss Axehilt out of hand you might not have much success with investers or developers that think like him. You have to find more convincing arguments not just give up and say a person is not worth talking to or respecting ,by just putting them down you have not gained anything just perhaps only solidifying his point of view.

What do you think has lead to the the scarcity of world PvP over bgs and should you not try to find better ways to advance your points of views without alienating people . Help them see your point of view and while on that subject it is also pointless to blame PvEers because they are just merely lobbying for thier interests and they seemed to have gained more purchase  if like the op says they are ruining pvp servers.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

The discussion, simply put, is this:

• World PVP isn't popular.
• Why? Because it's bad PVP.
• Why's it bad? The reasons I listed before, (worse, infrequent, and predetermined combat,) and probably some I missed.

No that is not "the discussion" I am having and you are responding to at all. This is about what makes instanced mmorpg so popular, not what makes open world pvp unpopular in Axehilt's opinion. No wonder you seem to be struggling if you don't grasp what you are trying to argue against in the first place...

 

Those are the facts of what people are playing and paying for.  You may not agree with my breakdown (you certainly don't feel the same way personally), you can't disagree that world PVP is less popular because most players find it to be worse PVP. All you can do is state a personal preference for world PVP.

 

Ganking doesn't occur in instanced PVP, because in instanced PVP it's purely about PVP.  You can't be ganked.

Haha, oh wow.

 

Lopsided PVP still occurs.  When it's due to progression (non-skill factor), it unbalances PVP and makes it less interesting.  When it's due to skill, PVP is balanced and that player deserves to win.  And hopefully the game can match that player up with someone of near-equal skill so that those two can have better combat theatrics.  

Hello, we are talking about mmorpgs, which have progression metrics.

Instanced pvp in mmorpgs is as popular as it is because of accessibilty and ease of use. You have still failed to come up with any reasonable counter to that.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

But we arent talking about games throughout history. We are talking about mmos. If you think mmorpg's are just games, then I and alot of developers would disagree with you .BTW Instanced pvp made a great south park episode!! That experience is the only experience that makes an mmo unuiqe.

So why do players choose open world pvp when both are offered and neither is rewarded? Fair is what they want, but have to be bribed to partake? Because its not about fair or even pvp maybe? Its about another gear grind treadmill perfected to be the most addictive to gear. Not addicted to pvp, or fun. Gear. The one thing that ruins pvp...yep, thats what pvp is about. This is what pvpers want? Nope nope.

Fair and balanced pvp in an instance happens as often as it does in open world too.

Players don't actually care whether MMOs are "unique".  They just want a fun game.  Only a tiny minority holds the "MMORPG" acronym to have some sort of innate value.  Everybody else is like "Is it fun?  I'll play.  Is it not fun?  I'm gone."  MMORPGs live or die based on how good a game they are, not based on how much of a world they are.

Players wouldn't choose open world PVP when both are offered and neither rewarded.  That was my point: out of all the games mankind makes, we make nearly all our PVP games balanced and without reward!  People still play the hell out of them!

Your last sentence seems written wrong.  Are you suggesting balanced fights happen as often in world PVP as instanced PVP?  

Yet no one would participate in BG's without the reward. Thats why they are rewarded. If people played the hell out of them for fun devs wouldnt need to add rewards. Yet they NEED to add them to BG's. Why? Explain the need to add rewards that hinder the activity, make it less fair, less fun if they didnt need to. Let's start there and maybe we can have a serious discussion:)

I assume you disagree that pvp was purposely transformed into a gear grind because it benefited the devs.

Fair fights rarely happen anywhere. People always look for an advantage. BG's are responsible for some of the lamest unfair pvp ever seen. We can nitpick each to death if you want.

Really want you to change my mind btw.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Instanced pvp in mmorpgs is as popular as it is because of accessibilty and ease of use. You have still failed to come up with any reasonable counter to that.

If by "ease of use" you mean "It's easier and much more common to have good, fun fights" then we're in agreement.

It's superior PVP design.  No question.

Remove instanced PvP all together, hell for that matter remove instanced PvE too.

Create super huge land masses with sectioned off areas , underground dungeons (like in DAoC) or huge mansions/castles that are used as a source for PvE groups.

Have resource driven PvP objectives to foster combat, such as guild claimable keeps or better yet cities.  The thing that makes world PvP in games like AC and DAoC is you fight for resources, whether they be spots where the mobs drop more greater then average loot or crafting materials, or a location that have quicker spawns or spawns that grant a greater XP reward.  you could also have guild/alliance/faction (I prefer the first 2) claimable cities & Keeps that lets those groups fight over.  

Anytime you foster world PvP through group resource driven goals (as above), instead of character specific goals (i.e. honor points or PvP gear) you cater to the lowest common denominator and remove incentive for people working together.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Every fight I ever had in EVE or DF was a one-sided slaughter where one or the other side had zero hope of victory.  95% of world PVP fights I have in themeparks are the same.

If you take a 5v5 and suddenly let one side bring 5 more friends, that is not more balanced.  It's less balanced (or at best equal.)

And you make the common mistake of assuming MMORPGs aren't games.  They live or die on being good games.  Whether they're massive or alternate realities is simply irrelevant to most players.  Therefore the same rules of what makes PVP good apply (and it's clear that they've worked, given the popularity of WOW style PVP.)

Boom. Right there. You just exposed yourself.

If that was your experience in either of those games (both of which I have played extensively), you were either a) terrible at both games and quit before learning anything about them, or b) picked terrible corps/clans, and never really got to experience how great the PVP can be in either title.

Either way, when I read your incessant posts about PVP and sandboxes, I'm not going to able to take you seriously. You simply do not have the experience to know what the heck you're talking about.

Very common, but alas very weak argument. Is that really the only reason you can come up with why people don't like open world PvP? That they haven't had enough experience?

I played Eve for 13 months, was a co-CEO and an FC in a PvP corp in a PvP alliance who held sovereignty in nullsec and the region we were, was commonly one of the most violent regions in the game. No shortage of action then. My responsibilities included training and teaching new recruits how to PvP. Many vets who had older characters than I, commended my abilities.

Still I think much the same way as Axehilt. Is that not enough experience for you?

Action is more scarce in open world PvP and great majority of times that action is one-sided. I pick well made instanced PvP anyday.

There's still way more depth in Open PvP games than there is in  sports PvP.

Sports PvP is a subset of open PvP.

To say that open PvP is wrong is shallow and ignorant.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Instanced pvp in mmorpgs is as popular as it is because of accessibilty and ease of use. You have still failed to come up with any reasonable counter to that.

You forgot 'Because some people like the idea of a fair fight'.

Just look at pretty much all sports ever (Including things like martial arts).  They all extoll the virtue of a fair fight, balanced sides (In numbers, anyway, if not neccessarily skill) and such.

You don't go to a soccer match where the referee says 'Okay, to make this more interesting, it's an 11 on 3 match today.  Also, if you can ambush the 3 people from behind, that's cool.  Today is a 'I don't care if there's fouls' day.

The concept of sports and fair play is deeply ingrained in society, and what people expect.

You know where they team up multiple people on one, and there's a strong 'anything goes' mentality?

Pro wrestling.

Not that I'm suggesting that open PvP holds a strong resemblance to pro wrestling.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Instanced pvp in mmorpgs is as popular as it is because of accessibilty and ease of use. You have still failed to come up with any reasonable counter to that.

You forgot 'Because some people like the idea of a fair fight'.

Just look at pretty much all sports ever (Including things like martial arts).  They all extoll the virtue of a fair fight, balanced sides (In numbers, anyway, if not neccessarily skill) and such.

You don't go to a soccer match where the referee says 'Okay, to make this more interesting, it's an 11 on 3 match today.  Also, if you can ambush the 3 people from behind, that's cool.  Today is a 'I don't care if there's fouls' day.

The concept of sports and fair play is deeply ingrained in society, and what people expect.

You know where they team up multiple people on one, and there's a strong 'anything goes' mentality?

Pro wrestling.

Not that I'm suggesting that open PvP holds a strong resemblance to pro wrestling.

But fair fights and gear grinds are 2 different things. But BG proponents wont admit it, nor will they give up the rewards. We understand they're fair, but they only became more popular when rewards were only offered to that specific form of pvp. And to people whether they succeed or not. It's simply a gear grind. A fair one hehe.

Faction vs faction. We can tell which is better by their pants. Awesome lore there.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Very common, but alas very weak argument. Is that really the only reason you can come up with why people don't like open world PvP? That they haven't had enough experience? When they say that "Every fight I ever had in EVE or DF was a one-sided slaughter where one or the other side had zero hope of victory," I most certainly do. Franky, how could you not? 

I played Eve for 13 months, was a co-CEO and an FC in a PvP corp in a PvP alliance who held sovereignty in nullsec and the region we were, was commonly one of the most violent regions in the game. No shortage of action then. My responsibilities included training and teaching new recruits how to PvP. Many vets who had older characters than I, commended my abilities.

Still I think much the same way as Axehilt. Is that not enough experience for you? I can't help you there, I'm afraid.

Action is more scarce in open world PvP and great majority of times that action is one-sided. I pick well made instanced PvP anyday. Fair enough. Personally, I can't stand everything being overly and artificially fair every time all the time. I never pick on noobs and in fact help them out whenever I possibly can. It's just that I relish in not easily knowing how things will turn out. It raises the level of unpredictability and can often times increase adrenaline release.

PvPers ruin PvP. Mostly, the balance babies....They see mto thin keverything should have the same power against anything else, instead of a proper paper/rock/scissors style of balance. But no, things get changed for the PvEers which are the vast majority, but pvPers see mto encompass the biggest forum whiners, so they mess up balance over and over trying to pander to the 10% who happens to be the loudest crybabies in the game.

PvPers ruin PvE games. Not visa-versa.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Instanced pvp in mmorpgs is as popular as it is because of accessibilty and ease of use. You have still failed to come up with any reasonable counter to that.

You forgot 'Because some people like the idea of a fair fight'.

Just look at pretty much all sports ever (Including things like martial arts).  They all extoll the virtue of a fair fight, balanced sides (In numbers, anyway, if not neccessarily skill) and such.

You don't go to a soccer match where the referee says 'Okay, to make this more interesting, it's an 11 on 3 match today.  Also, if you can ambush the 3 people from behind, that's cool.  Today is a 'I don't care if there's fouls' day.

The concept of sports and fair play is deeply ingrained in society, and what people expect.

You know where they team up multiple people on one, and there's a strong 'anything goes' mentality?

Pro wrestling.

Not that I'm suggesting that open PvP holds a strong resemblance to pro wrestling.

but not all MMO players want to do sports when they log in.

believe it or not, but there are actually players who want to play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, in a persistent world, were character development, strategy, planning and teamwork on a massive scale (like alliances, territory control, etc) are important - not fast and shallow deathmatches.

that's why PvP in sandbox games are more about unexpected situations, player politics and total freedom, than about "fair" fights trying to simulate some kind of sports logic on a static playfield.

besides, instanced PvP games are not necessarily "fair" - I remember in WAR, high-ranked players from the top guilds would  steamroll PUGs all day long in scenarios.

it didn't matter if you where a low-ranked solo player with crap gear, you still got thrown in there together with some random players (often in a group with a totally random class combination) and then you where supposed to fight against six high-ranked players with top-end gear, on vent and using the ultimate class setup.

15 minutes of pure humiliation.

so those trying to argue that instanced PvP is "pure" PvP without ganking are totally clueless, as are those trying to argue that PvP is about "fair" fights.

PvP is about winning, in any way you can, and anyone claiming otherwise is just doing scrub talk.

Originally posted by Archeminos

PvPers ruin PvP. Mostly, the balance babies....They see mto thin keverything should have the same power against anything else, instead of a proper paper/rock/scissors style of balance. But no, things get changed for the PvEers which are the vast majority, but pvPers see mto encompass the biggest forum whiners, so they mess up balance over and over trying to pander to the 10% who happens to be the loudest crybabies in the game.

 

PvPers ruin PvE games. Not visa-versa.

LOL, no thats developer BS. They change and nerf classes on purpose, it's part of how they keep people playing. The only balance devs give a shit about is pve balance. Is the instance to hard or not ect..If they wanted pvp balance they would have balanced it. this is what ive heard, i dunno if its true.

Originally posted by Biskop

non-instanced PvP, and especially FFA, full loot PvP,  isn't just about winning fights, it's about the whole "virtual world" aspect of MMO gaming.

it's about going out into the world and not knowing what will happen.

it's about getting a group of friends together and go to a dungeon, only to find some other people there - not knowing if they'll attack you, join you, or flee for their lives.

it's about winning unexpected fights against all odds, getting away from murderers by playing it smart, and managing to get even once in a while.

it's about ambushes, sieges and battles that actually affect the world.

in other words: non-instanced, FFA PvP is about risk vs reward and real challenge, and about players using their brains because they actually have something to lose.

Correction -- that's what non-instanced PvP, and especially FFA PvP *should* be about. That's the theory behind FFA PvP.

The reality is that those games just end up becoming a mindless gankfest with herds of roaming players going around and killing anyone who is sufficiently low enough. There's no challenge and no virtual world at all. It's just pointless.

Originally posted by Biskop

but not all MMO players want to do sports when they log in.

believe it or not, but there are actually players who want to play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, in a persistent world, were character development, strategy, planning and teamwork on a massive scale (like alliances, territory control, etc) are important - not fast and shallow deathmatches.

that's why PvP in sandbox games are more about unexpected situations, player politics and total freedom, than about "fair" fights trying to simulate some kind of sports logic on a static playfield.

 

besides, instanced PvP games are not necessarily "fair" - I remember in WAR, high-ranked players from the top guilds would  steamroll PUGs all day long in scenarios.

it didn't matter if you where a low-ranked solo player with crap gear, you still got thrown in there together with some random players (often in a group with a totally random class combination) and then you where supposed to fight against six high-ranked players with top-end gear, on vent and using the ultimate class setup.

15 minutes of pure humiliation.

so those trying to argue that instanced PvP is "pure" PvP without ganking are totally clueless, as are those trying to argue that PvP is about "fair" fights.

PvP is about winning, in any way you can, and anyone claiming otherwise is just doing scrub talk.

The argument I outlined in red would be really compelling, and I'd be forced to admit that you won, if I oh... say for example... ever tried arguing that's all anything people wanted.  Which I didn't.  I was saying a benefit and attraction for instanced PvP.  Sort of like if I was saying why some people like to eat tacos instead of hamburgers, and you tried explaining to me that not everybody likes to eat tacos.  Duh.  No kidding, really?  Never said they did.  My message was to explain the benefits people see in instanced PvP, not to invalidate the existence of world PvP.  Don't be so sensitive.

I actually like both kinds of PvP.  BOTH.  I enjoyed DAoC, I did open world PvP in vanilla WoW... I wanted to do it in Aion, but I couldn't get through the PvE content in there far enough to get to PvP (Ugh, hated that game.  No offense to people who like Aion.)

As far as the argument I outlined in green (Yay color coding), that's why a lot of people are looking forward to GW2's take on instanced PvP, why they enjoyed the GW1 take on instanced PvP, and one reason why generally speaking, FPS games and most forms of competitive gameplay online are balanced, and why people complain about lack of balance.

Yes, gear/level imbalance in MMORPGs can make it relatively lopsided.  Which is why the arenas are far from optimal so far as an actual e-sport goes.  ... but at least in a 5v5 fight, or whatever, you know the enemy will bring 5 enemies, and you have a rough idea of the power ceiling they can bring, while in open world, it can be one person against 50, all which are drastically higher level and better geared.

The range of possible imbalance is significantly more extreme in open world PvP.

I outlined your last argument in pink, because it seems kind of like a weak, childish argument.  That's what open world PvP is about.  Sort of.  Which is what makes it so unpopular to so many people.  There's still rules though.

Sure, the idea of no fouls boxing sounds pretty fun... until you're actually one of those boxers (Oh god, you punched me in the CROTCH.'  '... that's what you get for stabbing me in the neck with a knife'  '... you gouged my eye first')

Except for actual real fights (To the death.  Even street fights and... heck, most wars use actual rules.  Whoa.), pretty much any form of competition humans do relies upon certain sets of rules.  ... and, I'm going to totally blow your mind here... even open world PvP fights online?  Merely simulations of real fights.  THey're not real fights.  Unless you think that uploading viruses to opponent's computers, and driving over to stab them in the kidneys all fall under 'fair PvP'.  Seriously, scrubs?

Talk to me about people being scrubs when you're an expert RL knife fighter and have killed a few people.  Then you can say 'Yeah, people who aren't willing to stab other people to death with KNIVES are scrubs'.  Boasting about your elite prowess in open world PvP, and calling people who want to play games in other ways scrubs?  That's just sort of embarrassing.  For everybody involved.  Mostly you though.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

But fair fights and gear grinds are 2 different things. But BG proponents wont admit it, nor will they give up the rewards. We understand they're fair, but they only became more popular when rewards were only offered to that specific form of pvp. And to people whether they succeed or not. It's simply a gear grind. A fair one hehe.

Faction vs faction. We can tell which is better by their pants. Awesome lore there.

Are you kidding?  THat's why I (and many others) are totally looking forward to GW2 PvP.  If you want actual gear progression, you have to go into WvWvW, which is sort of like DAoC realm vs. realm...

If you do the instanced PvP?  Everybody is max level with access to all max level skills and equipment.  It's a completely fair fight (Well, unless the other person is more AWESOME than you, and that's more your fault than their fault), or at least as close as you're going to get with internet latency and stuff.  All the rewards?  Merely cosmetic.  Ideally, that's the perfect form of fair, balanced eSport style PvP (Where even the rewards don't make you a better character, just let other people know you're a better player)

I welcome this with open arms.  I don't want or need better gear from an instanced PvP fight, I just want to wear a hat that says I kicked people's ass because I'm more skillful.  :D

... and if I feel in the mood for imbalanced fight where I can earn gear and where gear makes a difference, I'll just hop on over to WvWvW and try to get in a fight where it's 10 against 300, and see if I can survive.  :D

Originally posted by Meowhead

 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

But fair fights and gear grinds are 2 different things. But BG proponents wont admit it, nor will they give up the rewards. We understand they're fair, but they only became more popular when rewards were only offered to that specific form of pvp. And to people whether they succeed or not. It's simply a gear grind. A fair one hehe.

Faction vs faction. We can tell which is better by their pants. Awesome lore there.

Are you kidding?  THat's why I (and many others) are totally looking forward to GW2 PvP.  If you want actual gear progression, you have to go into WvWvW, which is sort of like DAoC realm vs. realm...

If you do the instanced PvP?  Everybody is max level with access to all max level skills and equipment.  It's a completely fair fight (Well, unless the other person is more AWESOME than you, and that's more your fault than their fault), or at least as close as you're going to get with internet latency and stuff.  All the rewards?  Merely cosmetic.  Ideally, that's the perfect form of fair, balanced eSport style PvP (Where even the rewards don't make you a better character, just let other people know you're a better player)

I welcome this with open arms.  I don't want or need better gear from an instanced PvP fight, I just want to wear a hat that says I kicked people's ass because I'm more skillful.  :D

... and if I feel in the mood for imbalanced fight where I can earn gear and where gear makes a difference, I'll just hop on over to WvWvW and try to get in a fight where it's 10 against 300, and see if I can survive.  :D

That's the answer I was looking for. Thank you:)

Oh WAAAAAH - PvP'ers did this by their own silly actions. Like ganking noobs. I play a game to play a game, not worry that twitchy 12 year olds are going to trash my char.