Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Uhwop

I have a question.

If the new WoW xpac turns out to be the highest selling xpac Blizzard releases, will that mean that ToR failed?

Because I'm going to laugh really hard if this xpac sells millions of copies; wich I fully expect it to.

Everyone complained when BC came out.

Everyone complained when WoLK came out.

Everyone complained when Cat came out.

That's all most people here do.  Complain about whatever game that they think is going to compete with whatever game it is they're rooting for at any particular moment.

Here's a fact.  A lot of the people who are bashing WoW now, prophesizing doom for Blizzard, and huge success for ToR or GW2 or whatever other game they're waiting for, will be rooting for some other game a few months after the game they're wating for releases.  That's what a lot of you peole here do.  You jump from one MMO to the next, and talk a bunch of junk about whatever most recent one you played.  Over and over and over and over it goes. 

Blizzard isn't going anywere, WoW isn't going anywere, but a lot of you will be moving on to the next great hype.

 

And what's your question?  What do WoW's EXPANSION sales have to do with another game's sales?  I don't get it.  Both can be successful.  Since when can only one game succeed at a time?

In a capitalist country not being number one in sales is a failure from a business standpoint. Professionally, if you break even and then make some profit, then you have succeeded. Not everyone understands that.

Originally posted by Satarious

Originally posted by GreenHell

4 million players of WOW are going to just get up and leave to  GW2, SWTOR and TSW. yeah that makes perfect sense. You convinced me.

Year after year same bull***. i wish people would just learn from past MMO releases.

It's not a matter of not learning it is simply a matter of projecting what they want to happen on the current situation. The WoW hate runs deep for some reason. Warhammer, AoC, Rift, all WoW killers. All failed to kill WoW. Now we are simply using the multiple release scenario instead. So now we don't have one WoW killer we have many all taking their piece until WoW has nothing left. All of this due to Pandas.

It's funny because if you say ToR will be F2P in 6 months people get all defensive yet saying it about WoW is ok. History shows that besides Rift all of the WoW killers are now F2P yet it will be WoW that fails. Once again all because of Pandas and an Asian theme.

Yeah, but this time it's BIOWARE we're talking about.  All the failures of the past were produced by companies that are just a bunch of amateurs playing the big boys game.  

Blizzard = PRO

Bioware = PRO

rest = amateur hour

 

Case closed.

I am sorry but Mythic was also quiet pro till WAR release. So it is not all black and white like you think.

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Cacophanist

Competition normally makes for better products. So when WOW and SWTOR compete we should get a better MMO right? Well not if both games are total turkeys to start with. Both are utterly unoriginal interms of game play and style, they have the same old shitty EQ style combat, same old quest and level system (yawn). 

So normally competition makes for better products but not in this case. 

Such a shame.

 

WoW is unoriginal, because it took what already existed and packaged it all together.

TOR is unoriginal? FPS style flight sim in an MMO, OFFLINE crafting, companions, voice-overs for EVERYONE practically.  You need to understand what innovation and creativity is before you can make a judgement like that.

Same old quest and level system...yep, that will never change.

Let me ask you something, when you go play an RPG game offline like Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Dragon Age what are those games all about? A quest and leveling/advancement system. 

What do you do in ANY game? You are tasked with something and then you do it to move the game forward. Quest and level/advancement. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news man, but that system is in almost every single game you play. From puzzle games to RPG's.

The only way that system will ever change is when game companies start making games with NPC AI that acts and talks human, because only then will cookie-cutter quests disappear. And what we will see is the unpredictability that MMO's are lacking.

I'm not flaming you dude, just simply pointing out that Blizzard is years behind compared to Bioware in terms of innovation in RPG games. Simply because Blizzard has only made one RPG game to date: WoW. While Bioware has made many. 

You didn't list a single thing that hasn't been done in other MMO's.

SWG already had space combat.  EVE and fallen earth both do crafting while ofline, and there have been other MMO's that allow you to craft without actually logging into the game.  EQ2 was "practically" entirely voiced over when it released, that was like 7 years ago.

I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that BW isn't doing anything innovative, but just redesigning systems used in other games; just like Blizzard did. 

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Cacophanist

Competition normally makes for better products. So when WOW and SWTOR compete we should get a better MMO right? Well not if both games are total turkeys to start with. Both are utterly unoriginal interms of game play and style, they have the same old shitty EQ style combat, same old quest and level system (yawn). 

So normally competition makes for better products but not in this case. 

Such a shame.

 

WoW is unoriginal, because it took what already existed and packaged it all together.

TOR is unoriginal? FPS style flight sim in an MMO, OFFLINE crafting, companions, voice-overs for EVERYONE practically.  You need to understand what innovation and creativity is before you can make a judgement like that.

Same old quest and level system...yep, that will never change.

Let me ask you something, when you go play an RPG game offline like Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Dragon Age what are those games all about? A quest and leveling/advancement system. 

What do you do in ANY game? You are tasked with something and then you do it to move the game forward. Quest and level/advancement. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news man, but that system is in almost every single game you play. From puzzle games to RPG's.

The only way that system will ever change is when game companies start making games with NPC AI that acts and talks human, because only then will cookie-cutter quests disappear. And what we will see is the unpredictability that MMO's are lacking.

I'm not flaming you dude, just simply pointing out that Blizzard is years behind compared to Bioware in terms of innovation in RPG games. Simply because Blizzard has only made one RPG game to date: WoW. While Bioware has made many. 

You didn't list a single thing that hasn't been done in other MMO's.

SWG already had space combat.  EVE and fallen earth both do crafting while ofline, and there have been other MMO's that allow you to craft without actually logging into the game.  EQ2 was "practically" entirely voiced over when it released, that was like 7 years ago.

I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that BW isn't doing anything innovative, but just redesigning systems used in other games; just like Blizzard did. 

Point taken! I didn't realize, but you are right! But all the same, I know Bioware still has a few cards up their sleeve, they always do. I know they haven't revealed a lot of end-game stuff, and have said it is a big part of their game design that they don't want to talk about.

There are a lot of good system designs out there...I think the reason why they don't get any attention is because they aren't executed to their full potential maybe, that is why WoW got so popular. For instance, I loved healing wounds in the med center, or battle fatigue in the cantina in the original SWG, one of the funnest parts of that game...

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Uhwop

I have a question.

If the new WoW xpac turns out to be the highest selling xpac Blizzard releases, will that mean that ToR failed?

Because I'm going to laugh really hard if this xpac sells millions of copies; wich I fully expect it to.

Everyone complained when BC came out.

Everyone complained when WoLK came out.

Everyone complained when Cat came out.

That's all most people here do.  Complain about whatever game that they think is going to compete with whatever game it is they're rooting for at any particular moment.

Here's a fact.  A lot of the people who are bashing WoW now, prophesizing doom for Blizzard, and huge success for ToR or GW2 or whatever other game they're waiting for, will be rooting for some other game a few months after the game they're wating for releases.  That's what a lot of you peole here do.  You jump from one MMO to the next, and talk a bunch of junk about whatever most recent one you played.  Over and over and over and over it goes. 

Blizzard isn't going anywere, WoW isn't going anywere, but a lot of you will be moving on to the next great hype.

 

And what's your question?  What do WoW's EXPANSION sales have to do with another game's sales?  I don't get it.  Both can be successful.  Since when can only one game succeed at a time?

 

In a capitalist country not being number one in sales is a failure from a business standpoint. Professionally, if you break even and then make some profit, then you have succeeded. Not everyone understands that.

No, that's your opinion.

Capitalism is not all about "sales".  It's not even "about" selling anything.  And in business sucess is measured in profits, and not everyone makes a profit selling something.  I don't recall ever buying anything from my bank; yet they were some of the most profitable institutions in the world.  Your "level" of success has everything to do with your own personal goals, whether they be set by you as a CEO or you as an employee of a company. 

Bethesda isn't the most profitable development studio, are you really gonna tell me that they aren't a success in a capalistic society?  If so, you need to study up on capitalism.

Originally posted by Nineven

I'm not flaming you dude, just simply pointing out that Blizzard is years behind compared to Bioware in terms of innovation in RPG games. Simply because Blizzard has only made one RPG game to date: WoW. While Bioware has made many. 

Have to point this out to you. There is a game called Diablo, it is entering the 3rd version. What do you classify this game as?

Think before you post.

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Cacophanist

Competition normally makes for better products. So when WOW and SWTOR compete we should get a better MMO right? Well not if both games are total turkeys to start with. Both are utterly unoriginal interms of game play and style, they have the same old shitty EQ style combat, same old quest and level system (yawn). 

So normally competition makes for better products but not in this case. 

Such a shame.

 

WoW is unoriginal, because it took what already existed and packaged it all together.

TOR is unoriginal? FPS style flight sim in an MMO, OFFLINE crafting, companions, voice-overs for EVERYONE practically.  You need to understand what innovation and creativity is before you can make a judgement like that.

Same old quest and level system...yep, that will never change.

Let me ask you something, when you go play an RPG game offline like Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Dragon Age what are those games all about? A quest and leveling/advancement system. 

What do you do in ANY game? You are tasked with something and then you do it to move the game forward. Quest and level/advancement. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news man, but that system is in almost every single game you play. From puzzle games to RPG's.

The only way that system will ever change is when game companies start making games with NPC AI that acts and talks human, because only then will cookie-cutter quests disappear. And what we will see is the unpredictability that MMO's are lacking.

I'm not flaming you dude, just simply pointing out that Blizzard is years behind compared to Bioware in terms of innovation in RPG games. Simply because Blizzard has only made one RPG game to date: WoW. While Bioware has made many. 

You didn't list a single thing that hasn't been done in other MMO's.

SWG already had space combat.  EVE and fallen earth both do crafting while ofline, and there have been other MMO's that allow you to craft without actually logging into the game.  EQ2 was "practically" entirely voiced over when it released, that was like 7 years ago.

I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that BW isn't doing anything innovative, but just redesigning systems used in other games; just like Blizzard did. 

 

Point taken! I didn't realize, but you are right! But all the same, I know Bioware still has a few cards up their sleeve, they always do. I know they haven't revealed a lot of end-game stuff, and have said it is a big part of their game design that they don't want to talk about.

ToR may well be a great game, but it's not going to have anything to do with WoW, as the OP suggests.

And voice overs in an MMO are friggin awesome.

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by Nineven

I'm not flaming you dude, just simply pointing out that Blizzard is years behind compared to Bioware in terms of innovation in RPG games. Simply because Blizzard has only made one RPG game to date: WoW. While Bioware has made many. 

Have to point this out to you. There is a game called Diablo, it is entering the 3rd version. What do you classify this game as?

Think before you post.

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

Originally posted by Nineven

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

How you could say Diablo is not an RPG is beyond me. Have you ever seen the game? Just because the word action is in front of the acronym, does not negate the rest which is RPG.

Plenty of innovation in the Diablo series. I'm not defending any game company, but a definition. Look it up.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Uhwop

I have a question.

If the new WoW xpac turns out to be the highest selling xpac Blizzard releases, will that mean that ToR failed?

Because I'm going to laugh really hard if this xpac sells millions of copies; wich I fully expect it to.

Everyone complained when BC came out.

Everyone complained when WoLK came out.

Everyone complained when Cat came out.

That's all most people here do.  Complain about whatever game that they think is going to compete with whatever game it is they're rooting for at any particular moment.

Here's a fact.  A lot of the people who are bashing WoW now, prophesizing doom for Blizzard, and huge success for ToR or GW2 or whatever other game they're waiting for, will be rooting for some other game a few months after the game they're wating for releases.  That's what a lot of you peole here do.  You jump from one MMO to the next, and talk a bunch of junk about whatever most recent one you played.  Over and over and over and over it goes. 

Blizzard isn't going anywere, WoW isn't going anywere, but a lot of you will be moving on to the next great hype.

 

And what's your question?  What do WoW's EXPANSION sales have to do with another game's sales?  I don't get it.  Both can be successful.  Since when can only one game succeed at a time?

 

In a capitalist country not being number one in sales is a failure from a business standpoint. Professionally, if you break even and then make some profit, then you have succeeded. Not everyone understands that.

No, that's your opinion.

Capitalism is not all about "sales".  It's not even "about" selling anything.  And in business sucess is measured in profits, and not everyone makes a profit selling something.  I don't recall ever buying anything from my bank; yet they were some of the most profitable institutions in the world.  Your "level" of success has everything to do with your own personal goals, whether they be set by you as a CEO or you as an employee of a company. 

Bethesda isn't the most profitable development studio, are you really gonna tell me that they aren't a success in a capalistic society?  If so, you need to study up on capitalism.

You are right, I did use "capitalism" somewhat out of context there. 

seeing people say shit like "just because its been done before its gonna suck" really annoys the hell out of me.

talk as if it has stuff no ones ever seen or thought of before it'll be the best thing in the world. instead of just talking down upcoming games, why dont you list these things that have never been done before that'll make games allmighty so word can get out to some developer that might want to put it in their new game if its as great as you say.

a GOOD game is going to be a GOOD game. Look at Zelda. How many Zelda games have their been? They're all pretty  much the same game. Admittedly the quality (in my opinion) has been fluctuating from not so good to decent since Ocarina of Time, but still they're all for the most part pretty good games. Each new game adds maybe 1 or 2 new concepts but they don't detract from the core of all Zelda games, that stays the same.

It's the same for MMOs, they dont have to detract from the core of what MMOs are, hell they don't even really need to add a new concept or three though that is an obvious plus(so long as they're well made and make sense) to be a good MMO. Blame devs rushing through publication/ideas not the fact that nothing ever changes.

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

Yes but Blizzard's one has made history. It has dominated this genre. It has changed the way MMORPG's are seen. Good or Bad. No matter what BW has done up to this point it has never changed an entire genre of gaming. Yes BW has made some great games. I cant argue that but to discount Blizzard because they only made one RPG (WoW) is like saying "Hey I know you broke all kinds of records and changed the mmorpg industry but you only did it once. "

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by Nineven

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

How you could say Diablo is not an RPG is beyond me. Have you ever seen the game? Just because the word action is in front of the acronym, does not negate the rest which is RPG.

Plenty of innovation in the Diablo series. I'm not defending any game company, but a definition. Look it up.

We just think of the definition differently man. I don't see Diablo as an RPG, because an RPG to me is somewhat of a life simulation game. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter right now.

I saw Panda cuddlys in Warcraft's next expansion and laughed. I was considering playing WoW again until SWTOR came out, but I just...I can't do pandas man, I was VERY hesitant in playing the game to begin with because of the cartoon graphics. Now I am glad I quit for good lol.

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by Nineven

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

How you could say Diablo is not an RPG is beyond me. Have you ever seen the game? Just because the word action is in front of the acronym, does not negate the rest which is RPG.

Plenty of innovation in the Diablo series. I'm not defending any game company, but a definition. Look it up.

I'm pretty sure that the first Diablo was a straight up RPG.  Diablo 2 was a much diffierent game if I'm not mistaken, but still an RPG.

Originally posted by GreenHell

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

Yes but Blizzard's one has made history. It has dominated this genre. It has changed the way MMORPG's are seen. Good or Bad. No matter what BW has done up to this point it has never changed an entire genre of gaming. Yes BW has made some great games. I cant argue that but to discount Blizzard because they only made one RPG (WoW) is like saying "Hey I know you broke all kinds of records and changed the mmorpg industry but you only did it once. "

 

I agree and even if what people are asking for comes true and Blizzard repeates its success with another MMO then other companies better pack their bags as if one WOW wasn't enough and to wish for another 12 million sub golliath from Blizzard. There is only so many subs left after two MMOS of Blizzard suck everything. ;)

We just think of the definition differently man. I don't see Diablo as an RPG, because an RPG to me is somewhat of a life simulation game. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter right now.

 

I saw Panda cuddlys in Warcraft's next expansion and laughed. I was considering playing WoW again until SWTOR came out, but I just...I can't do pandas man, I was VERY hesitant in playing the game to begin with because of the cartoon graphics. Now I am glad I quit for good lol.

The pandas wont be there before ToR launches.

Kong Fu Panda expansion enough said!

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by Nineven

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

How you could say Diablo is not an RPG is beyond me. Have you ever seen the game? Just because the word action is in front of the acronym, does not negate the rest which is RPG.

Plenty of innovation in the Diablo series. I'm not defending any game company, but a definition. Look it up.

 

We just think of the definition differently man. I don't see Diablo as an RPG, because an RPG to me is somewhat of a life simulation game. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter right now.

 

I saw Panda cuddlys in Warcraft's next expansion and laughed. I was considering playing WoW again until SWTOR came out, but I just...I can't do pandas man, I was VERY hesitant in playing the game to begin with because of the cartoon graphics. Now I am glad I quit for good lol.

I'm calling shenanigans.

You weren't going to play it until ToR came out, your just trying to validate your complaint about, of all things, pandas in a game.

ToR will be out long before the expansion; so you'd be playing Cat WoW and the xpac wouldn't have anything to do with the experience you'd have until ToR released.

Originally posted by GreenHell

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

Yes but Blizzard's one has made history. It has dominated this genre. It has changed the way MMORPG's are seen. Good or Bad. No matter what BW has done up to this point it has never changed an entire genre of gaming. Yes BW has made some great games. I cant argue that but to discount Blizzard because they only made one RPG (WoW) is like saying "Hey I know you broke all kinds of records and changed the mmorpg industry but you only did it once. "

 

Well said, very well said.

The point is, Blizzard is great at making games fun and addicting, but they lack in the actual RPG area; which Bioware practically owns.

It's like Super Mario Bros. I still LOVE that game, but eventually I got sick of it and started playing other games. That is where I believe WoW is now.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Nineven

Originally posted by Zenjinx

Originally posted by Nineven

I did think before I posted. And Diablo is not an RPG game, just like Orcs vs. Humans wasn't an RPG game. The POINT was innovation in RPG games, of which Blizzard has zero, save for WoW.

How you could say Diablo is not an RPG is beyond me. Have you ever seen the game? Just because the word action is in front of the acronym, does not negate the rest which is RPG.

Plenty of innovation in the Diablo series. I'm not defending any game company, but a definition. Look it up.

 

We just think of the definition differently man. I don't see Diablo as an RPG, because an RPG to me is somewhat of a life simulation game. 

Either way, it doesn't really matter right now.

 

I saw Panda cuddlys in Warcraft's next expansion and laughed. I was considering playing WoW again until SWTOR came out, but I just...I can't do pandas man, I was VERY hesitant in playing the game to begin with because of the cartoon graphics. Now I am glad I quit for good lol.

I'm calling shenanigans.

You weren't going to play it until ToR came out, your just trying to validate your complaint about, of all things, pandas in a game.

ToR will be out long before the expansion; so you'd be playing Cat WoW and the xpac wouldn't have anything to do with the experience you'd have until ToR released.

 

I wouldn't have played the expansion, obviously because it hasn't been released yet. I am saying that seeing what the future holds was just more of a reason for me to stay the hell away from that game and play the games I want to play.

As even more icing on the cake...I always thought it was a little fucked up having cartoon graphics, but you would do adult-themed quests like poisoning people and then watching them scream die before your eyes...I mean am I the only one that thinks that it a little messed up? LOL