Somebody said something in a certain way in this thread several pages back...

They said something to the effect of "the new MMOs are much better games for Gamers"

Then you say this:

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Originally posted by Kappadonna
I agree. The direction MMO's have taken from the more virtual-world experience of the earlier MMOs are not to my liking. I stick with the MMORPG genre because I like playing characters and games that I can sink a lot of time into - however, I still prefer games like UO over more "gamey" games like WoW. 
Everything always comes back around. I'd say within the next decade that we'll start seeing more free world, virtual based simulation games come back into the fray. But like everything in culture, it takes a long time for things to shift. We saw the MMO genre shift slowly into what it now is and we'll probably see it shift again over this decade much like the last. That's how things go. 
We'll have another UO or similar game somewhere down the line. At least Archeage looks promising.

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There it is. So simple it could have run me over like a bus... and it did several times over the years.

People that participate in MMOs can be Players, or Gamers, or a little of both. There is a subtle yet distinct difference in the two groups of People.

I *am* a Player, not a Gamer.

Older MMOs were made more for Players...

Newer MMOs are NOW made more for Gamers...

and the difference in the design and ingame experience shows.

I just know some people in the past on these forums tried to point this out to me and others... my apologies for being such an idiot. and Thank you.

I compare it to the progress of manned space exploration.

First we went into orbit... then we went to the Moon... and the original crowd looked forward to heading to Mars and beyond... but somehow we ended up stuck back in orbit for decades (though in fancier rockets)...

The original MMOs all seemed to be trying different things... focusing on different aspects of gameplay and taking chances on things that seemed like big steps forward in gameplay - even if the graphics were fairly simple - the empahsis was on creating these very cool virtual worlds.

Along came WoW... did a lot of the basic things better... made a ton of money... and we've had companies trying to copy that model for nearly 10 years.

Originally posted by Aletto

I remember the first time I logged into Everquest. Even though the only thing onscreen was a flat field with a few cardboard-cutout trees rising out of it, the experience was so much more meaningful. I remember taking an excited, shuddering breath as I processed it all in my mind.

Right now, there are dozens - no, hundreds - no, thousands of other players in this virtual world with me. It's a world. It's a living, breathing world.

I did a lot of people-watching. It thrilled me to see other players going about their business. It was such a departure from the video games I had played beforehand. Even though early MMOs were almost ruthlessly difficult to advance in without making a massive time commitment, things were fair. Everything was obtainable ingame once you paid for the game itself and kept up its subscription fee. For a square $15 a month, the entire world was at your fingertips. Some things were extremely difficult to get, so difficult I'd never have a chance at it, but I didn't mind. It made sense to me. Not everyone could wield Excalibur or ride Shadowfax.

As time went on, MMORPGs became friendlier beasts. This was a divisive development. Personally, I quite liked it. My fondest MMO memories are from the middle of the decade, when World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, City of Heroes, and Guild Wars were all fresh and new. The frustrations I had often felt while playing games like Everquest and Final Fantasy XI were no longer weighing me down. I could log in and strike out on my own, without having to sit around in a town hoping a group would form so I could do something as basic as go out and level up. Things were still fair in those days. For a time it looked like MMORPGs might actually get cheaper instead of more expensive, due to the success of Guild Wars. I know a lot of people were hoping monthly fees might become a thing of the past.

It wasn't to be, however. We now find ourselves in the thick of the age of cash shops and RMT. An age where having complete and total access to your MMORPG of choice is more expensive than ever. An age where the game's rarest treasure were not hidden away in the world's most dangerous dungeons and wielded by the most dedicated (or obsessed) players, but instead purchasable with real-world currency and wielded by those with the most disposable income.

I can't do it anymore. The immersion and the joy of the genre has been sucked out of me.

What's worse, even non-MMOs are doing it with their constant streams of DLC. The days where you could buy a game (and/or subscribe to it) for a flat price are over. Pieces of content, ranging in size from entire new regions and play modes to cosmetic additions like pets and alternate costumes are constantly being released. The worst thing of all is that it's working. People are eating it up. There is a large crowd out there that doesn't care when developers excise content from their own game to sell it seperately, often at very high prices.

There was once a time where alternate costumes and stages were part of the flat-rate package you purchased, and you unlocked them by showing skill or spending time playing the game. Today they are sold in DLC packs that are often 1/5th the price of the core game. Going back to MMOs, I'm finding that developers are charging ludicrous prices for things that used to be part of the flat-rate package.

All of this would be easier to swallow if it seemed like all this DLC and microtransaction stuff was content that simply wouldn't fit into the core product. This doesn't look to be the case to me, though. MMOs are releasing less content less often these days, and yet they continue to increase the rate at which they pump out DLC and microtransaction items. These things aren't leftovers from the design process - developers are actively and intentionally spending less effort on the core game and more effort on the cash shops and downloadable content. The degree to which they favor one or the other depends on the developer, but the vast majority appear to be whole-heartedly chasing after the DLC and RMT models, because they make more money.

There was once a time where the entrance fee was all you needed to experience the entirety of a game. Now, most MMOs are like a theme park that charges you to ride some of the attractions on top of having you pay the entry fee. Some people have yet to realize just how lucrative cash shops can be. A single player who spends $60 a month in the cash shop is worth four players who only pay the $15 monthly fee. These players exist. I've been running into them every day - the players with the Double XP Buff, the Double Reputation Buff, the No Cooldown Health Potions, the full collection of faction mounts which you can either buy with real-life money or spend two weeks grinding a faction's reputation to obtain each.

There was once a time where every item, pet, mount, consumable, and buff was available for that same flat price. There were often interesting and challenging ways to obtain that item. They were often woven into the lore of the game in fascinating ways. Today, they're in the cash shop, an immersion-breaking window you can bring up and spend real money in. Excalibur is on sale right now for 1950 Store Points. Shadowfax, Gandalf's one-of-a-kind mount, is 1730 Store Points. Alternatively, you can grind Maiar reputation two hours a day for three weeks to get it.

To those who don't have a problem with this - that's grand and I'm genuinely happy for you. I wish I didn't care so much. I wish it didn't matter so much to me that the coolest and rarest items are no longer earned by playing the game they are in but by wiring money to the developer. Unfortunately, I do. They did it right for so many years that I've grown weary of their new approach.

There was once a time where games felt like living, breathing worlds rife with opportunity. There was an in-game path to everything - every weapon, item, and companion. Now games are starting to feel more and more like half-filled display cases, with plenty of slots and spaces just waiting to filled - if you've got the money to spare.

Congrats, know you know how real gamers feel about what the inferior console has done to the entire industry...

And the gay people in the industry who have no clue how to make a game.. (Sorry, but i dont think one straight person exist anymore)

Please exit stage right and hand the reigns back to the experts.. in short.. please everyone in the gaming industry today.. please fucking quit

Originally posted by fenistil

Well that is partially true actually.

 Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers. 

Online gaming will continue to rise.  Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well.   There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take. 

Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.

The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.) 

So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

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Originally posted by Axehilt

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Originally posted by fenistil
Well that is partially true actually.
 Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers. 
Online gaming will continue to rise.  Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well.   There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take. 

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Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.
The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.) 
So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

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The thing you don't seam to understand is that the mmorpg genre isn't a genre where game for the purpose of computer gaming is working very well. They are other genre that fit that role very well, like fps and arcade games, because those genre from their birth are just that "computer games".

But RPGs, can they be just "games"? they are born somewhere else, for an other purpose than just playing a games for the heck of it. Can board games be just games, without the strategical component? So how much you can take away from role playing in RPGs?

Can you reduce roles into dps/tank/healer and be able to call them roles? Can you reduce playing a role into xp/gear grind?

Can you reduce roles into addiction aspect (for the role you are supposed to create), and can you reduce playing into gambling mechanism (die rolls)?

Can you reduce role playing to their fundamental principle, twist them to your advantages and keep on claiming you are doing "role playing games"?

Is a disguised party in a casino a role playing game? Sure hell it isn't to me.

Stupid. YOu cut your own throat by just griefing and not connecting the dots. Your first statement you pay for a box retail and keep up the $15 month fee for "Plain field and cardboard cut out tree". THAT RIGHT THERE, is why games have gone to shit. Because you allowed them to take your money and monthly fee, more than a cell phone service at that time, for CRAP. And after, every popped up looking for suckers like you. Quit the mmorpg genre, or support the illegal or F2P market. OR forever suffer. MORONS 

Originally posted by sofakingdumb

Stupid. YOu cut your own throat by just griefing and not connecting the dots. Your first statement you pay for a box retail and keep up the $15 month fee for "Plain field and cardboard cut out tree". THAT RIGHT THERE, is why games have gone to shit. Because you allowed them to take your money and monthly fee, more than a cell phone service at that time, for CRAP. And after, every popped up looking for suckers like you. Quit the mmorpg genre, or support the illegal or F2P market. OR forever suffer. MORONS 

You make a good point, but do it in a terrible manner.

Seriously, there's no need for such rude namecalling. 

Originally posted by fadis

I compare it to the progress of manned space exploration.

 

First we went into orbit... then we went to the Moon... and the original crowd looked forward to heading to Mars and beyond... but somehow we ended up stuck back in orbit for decades (though in fancier rockets)...

 

The original MMOs all seemed to be trying different things... focusing on different aspects of gameplay and taking chances on things that seemed like big steps forward in gameplay - even if the graphics were fairly simple - the empahsis was on creating these very cool virtual worlds.

Along came WoW... did a lot of the basic things better... made a ton of money... and we've had companies trying to copy that model for nearly 10 years.

 

 

Thats the problem. But WOW did copy many other game features. Why im sick of hearing "WOW clone". But yeah i think companies just need to step back and make a true epic mmo with all the features over the decade+. THey are so trying to follow WOW, and its actualy killing them. WOW was a success not because it was top of the line mmo, but because it grew, adapted, and became stronger. Having the Warcraft name also helped, as well as the fantasy genre.WOW almost failed its first month, so many server issues and bugs. I guess people dont remember that since it was a long time ago ;)

But games today are released half finished, bugged galore, missing so many features, and so much more. More games like SWG, Vanguard, Ryzom, etc are needed with tons of features, a realy indepth game play, crafting that means something, decay, housing that you can decorate (SWG), a good player economy, pvp that has meaning, and so much more.But polished and balanced. In my opinion if a game like that was made, it would be well.

Why i hope Archeage hurries up and gets here. I have a feeling that will be a keeper. Though ill play TOR as i like sci-fi genre games.

Originally posted by sofakingdumb

Stupid. YOu cut your own throat by just griefing and not connecting the dots. Your first statement you pay for a box retail and keep up the $15 month fee for "Plain field and cardboard cut out tree". THAT RIGHT THERE, is why games have gone to shit. Because you allowed them to take your money and monthly fee, more than a cell phone service at that time, for CRAP. And after, every popped up looking for suckers like you. Quit the mmorpg genre, or support the illegal or F2P market. OR forever suffer. MORONS 

Hey guys Einstein just waked up and he have all the solutions in one bag, good job dude, we will smelt our gold and make a statue of you!

But let me tell you one thing, i'm not the kind of guy that leave the mess behind and pretend he resolve the problem as the smart guy he is, unlike you.

I think a lot of WoW is actually a bad idea.

For example, the whole RvR thing. I think the only good way to make RvR is the DAoC way - at least three factions, each faction has their unique classes, and its not instanced. Only in this way RvR makes sense. If everyone has the same classes, you might as well allow player factions and let these factions battle each other.

But WoW has done some basic things right and it had massive advertisement when it was released.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by fenistil

Well that is partially true actually.

 Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers. 

Online gaming will continue to rise.  Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well.   There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take. 

Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.

The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.) 

So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

Well I am not saying or hoping that somehow, whole mmorpg genre switch back to 'world-building' / 'world-simulating'. 

I know that it won't happen. 

You're right that this particular type of gamer is and will be minority. There were peroids when those particular type of games were a bit more popular and peroids that they were less popular.

I do think though that sooner or later that this niche in mmorpg gaming crowd will be big enough that some developer (s) will decide that it might be profitable to make a game targetted for this niche. I am talking about 'normal' game, not some small indie projects.  Of course I am not talking about game with budget of Swtor magnitude, but there is alot of space between smallish-borked indie projects like MO and mamoth like Swtor.

I am fine with those games beign miniority in mmorpg's game pool, but nowadays apart of indie games and / or very old mmorpg's there is no single mmorpg like that.  I do not need whole genre to take a shift.  1-2 good non-indie polished games is enough.  

When I find a good game I DO stick with it for a very long time usually, even years long. I am like 'serial monogamist' type of gamer. 

More dangers I see with business models, cause I won't play a game like that if it is freemium / f2p / microtransaction based, etc as cash shops/ rmt kinda turn me off completly as I learnt on my own experience - but that's a topic for a whole other discussion.

It was an interesting read up until...

"It wasn't to be, however. We now find ourselves in the thick of the age of cash shops and RMT. "

I stopped reading when I realized it was just another QQ RMT waaaa thread, which has nothing to do with the games changing, gameplay, community, or anything really.

If anything, this thread convinces me that things haven't changed, and the people who complain just lost their perspective on the games.

Show me a legitimate reason as to why the genre has changed. Don't go whining about something that has nothing to do with that change. I have been playing MMO's since the beginning, and I really feel I am one of the only few who aren't brainwashed into thinking a payment method somehow changes everything. While I realize it's a social norm to repeat other's behavior we see, I do not do this like the OP apparently does. I actually make my own opinions, based on reality, not the perspective of hundreds of other "veterans".

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

It was an interesting read up until...

"It wasn't to be, however. We now find ourselves in the thick of the age of cash shops and RMT. "

 

I stopped reading when I realized it was just another QQ RMT waaaa thread, which has nothing to do with the games changing, gameplay, community, or anything really.

If anything, this thread convinces me that things haven't changed, and the people who complain just lost their perspective on the games.

Show me a legitimate reason as to why the genre has changed. Don't go whining about something that has nothing to do with that change. I have been playing MMO's since the beginning, and I really feel I am one of the only few who aren't brainwashed into thinking a payment method somehow changes everything. While I realize it's a social norm to repeat other's behavior we see, I do not do this like the OP apparently does. I actually make my own opinions, based on reality, not the perspective of hundreds of other "veterans".

If all content is designed for the cash shop. To force people to use the shop as often as possible it will certainly make a big difference.  Of course it could have a lot to do with how games are changing, gameplay, community and almost anything. Depending on how the specific company and game is trying to make players feel they need to spend money in the shop.

Of course there are a lot of other reasons why the genre has changed. But f2p/RMT is certainly one reason. More or less significant depending on what games we are talking about.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by fenistil

Well that is partially true actually.

 Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers. 

Online gaming will continue to rise.  Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well.   There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take. 

Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.

The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.) 

So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

After Balder's Gate and Oblivion, I don't know how you can continue to push this thinking.

Originally posted by Requiamer

 

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Originally posted by Axehilt

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Originally posted by fenistil
Well that is partially true actually.
 Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers. 
Online gaming will continue to rise.  Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well.   There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take. 

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Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.
The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.) 
So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

---

 

The thing you don't seam to understand is that the mmorpg genre isn't a genre where game for the purpose of computer gaming is working very well. They are other genre that fit that role very well, like fps and arcade games, because those genre from their birth are just that "computer games".

But RPGs, can they be just "games"? they are born somewhere else, for an other purpose than just playing a games for the heck of it. Can board games be just games, without the strategical component? So how much you can take away from role playing in RPGs?

Can you reduce roles into dps/tank/healer and be able to call them roles? Can you reduce playing a role into xp/gear grind?

Can you reduce roles into addiction aspect (for the role you are supposed to create), and can you reduce playing into gambling mechanism (die rolls)?

Can you reduce role playing to their fundamental principle, twist them to your advantages and keep on claiming you are doing "role playing games"?

Is a disguised party in a casino a role playing game? Sure hell it isn't to me.

Again, to refer back to the entire history of videogaming: very rarely do you ever see tabletop style role-playing in videogame RPGs.  Almost never, actually.   So yes, they can be -- and usually have been -- just "games".

Regarding your boardgame comment:

• Strategy is interesting decisions constrained by game rules.  This is basically a textbok definition of game, so to remove that would of course remove the game.
• Conversely, videogame RPGs have virtually never been about tabletop-style roleplaying so removing that element won't change anything -- they're still games about decisions and execution*, as they have always been. (* Less about execution than decision-making...after all, the big appeal of videogame RPGs is that they usually require very little twitch skill.)

I am looking forward to the release of Wizardry online because finally there is a feature that would hopefully force players to be more cautious and more mature in their approach to roleplaying and gaming.

Permanent death.

Originally posted by gimmesome

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

Blizzard makes games which appeal to a more casual base, no doubt, but at the highest tiers of their games you find plenty of hardcore players because their games have enough depth to appeal even at that level.  That's exactly why they're so successful (pre-WOW and post-).  They create games which are pretty close to the minute-to-learn-lifetime-to-master ideal of game design.

If rampant success, which indirectly indicates more players having fun, is indicative of a genre dying, then I hope all genres "die" like this.

sorry, but I have to chime in on this...

As others have stated before; just because 1 game in the genre has millions of players, it does not at all mean that the genre itself is doing "great" -   I'm really sick of hearing this arguement whenever I or another jaded vet that feels like our genre has been hijacked by the MTV/Reality TV generation brings up the fact that the flooded mmorpg genre is filled to the brim with too many bad games.      

I also hear the new-gen mmo players always hiding behind rubbish like this:  "well, there are more MMORPGs now than ever before, and more investors are willing to put money into the development of these games now, and that is a direct result of WoW's success.  You should all be thanking Blizzard for putting MMORPGs on the map"  ---  

That's utterly ridiculous.   Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for a game that caused the death of all the mechanics and characteristics we loved about the genre in the first place?   Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for all the mmo game options being reduced to MOBAs?  (multiplayer online battle arenas aka lobby hack'n'slashes)  

Just because there are 'more' people playing WoW than there are of veteran MMORPG gamers doesn't make everything the veterans think feel and say irrelivant.    I don't care if WoW had 20-50million subs, it still doesn't and shouldn't make my voice or anyone else's unheard when it comes to the simple fact that those millions of players are not actually a part of the MMORPG community.   They are not playing an MMORPG, so, in all honesty, although everyone has a right to opinion, I don't think theirs should hold as much weight as it does when it comes to developers taking into consideration 'feedback from the MMORPG community" --   May as well ask 9 year old T-ball players for their opinion on how Major League Baseball should be handled.    

The problem, as far as 'these games are all the same' or 'sandbox/themepark is better than..." goes is that Blizzard knows how to market their products better than the other developers.  They know how to reach the target audience(s) and they know that the most important aspect of a released game is that IT WORKS.   Unfortunately, everyone else is trying so hard to pull in the million+ subscribers that they don't care what the end result is at launch as long as enough people buy it.   

The MMORPGS (not WoW, not WAR, not AION, not RIFT... but the REAL ones that have MASSIVE amounts of people interacting without lobbies and queue systems and instanced arenas and the like. The ones with RPG aspects and character customization and large emersive worlds) were never developed by companies with superb marketting strategies.   They were developed for nerdy gamers by nerdy gamers and were perfectly satisfied pulling in any kind of profit.     Today we have corporations and investors and marketting/advertisement specialists making all the decisions about how the games are built, and thus, we no longer have games built for the MMORPG community, but instead, we have MOBA's built for the "video game players"   -- there are many reasons why MMORPGs were so different than the typical 'videogames', and one of them is that the community doesn't mix well.       But, alas, it is what it is.   The mighty dollar is all that matters now, and the casual crowd has more dollars to offer the greedy pricks at the top of the development chain.

MMORPGs are dead or at least dying.   the few real ones left will die too unless the now considered 'niche' playerbase of veteran MMORPG players (which, i might add, are the ones everyone should actually be thanking for the success of the genre instead of Blizz)   decide to take control on the development side, because this fresh new batch of post-graduate kids that saw too many "do you wanna create videogames for a living?  call this number and enroll!" commercials are running the show now, funded and instructed by business majors that don't play MMORPGs at all.

 

Sorry for the wall/rant.  This topic just fires me up.    Too many times do I hear "that 1 game has 12 million players, so, they are doing what's right and everyone should follow with a smile"  --

There was a time when the majority of the people on this planet thought it was flat and that we were the center of the universe.  Billions of people thought this, and a very small amount (in the 100s-1000s) disagreed.  Food for thought.   Majority vote doesn't mean it's right.   Most, and I stress that word... MOST people are lazy, selfish, dumb, and afraid of anything different or that they can't explain.    This is why the MMORPG genre was created.  The MINORITY of people that didn't see eye-to-eye with this Majority needed something different to play.  Somewhere to escape.   Oh well....   

Good post mate. I agree completly. but in your frustration you got to understand that the new generation is educated this way. Thinking too much, challening things these days are too much for the poor brains:

High Profits means quality

Easy means good, challengin is bad.

American Dream, and all that dumb crap.

If its on TV it must be true! lol

And so on. The MTV / iPHONE / EMO Generation.

Some people evolve, but most of them are just brainwashed by corporations/religion/badsociety practices and never recover. In the next 10-20 years with the new economic bubble, nature will make her natural selection.

Originally posted by Sorrow

It all goes back to WoW, WoW released just as MMO's went mainstream, basically you had millions of morons flooding into online gaming as the new " cool " ,  cheap entertainment.

Some flocked to other titles like UO or EQ and found them way too difficult for their small brains to process, but Blizzard had anticipated the market, and had developed an MMO for kindergarteners, a game solely designed to make idiots feel intelligent, a gimme game to inflate egos, and provide immediate gratification. The moronic masses swarmed in, and Blizzard became the star of the show. 

Almost overnight all over game studios realized blizzards success and the market they were appealing to and instantly scraped all projects that needed any reasoning, math ability, or creative thinking, and instead turned all focus to producing idiots games.

At the same time young people realized there was a whole new jobs market opening up, so tons of the kids working the deep fryer at McDonalds ran down to their local vo-tech and got a game designers certificate, 6 weeks and $300 and you too are a certified game designer... well being as tons of crap games were being coded these dev studios needed bodies so all these over-night game designers got hired into the industry, non gamer, non intelligent, non creative, non free-thinking, fry guys now making our games.

So now not only are games being made for idiots, they are being made by idiots..

hahaha! nice one mate

Well I am not saying or hoping that somehow, whole mmorpg genre switch back to 'world-building' / 'world-simulating'. I know that it won't happen. You're right that this particular type of gamer is and will be minority.

I think this is only half true. Although those fantasy-literature players (for want of a better word) might be a  minority i think the majority want variety and the worldiness that the first group wants for its own sake *also* provides the variety that the majority want.

I don't actually know if it's a majority but my guess is if you could look at say the first four years of WoW's or EQ's subs and select all the players who were subbed for a minimum of a year and checked their time played on their highest level character and their total time played on all their other alts the majority would have spent at least half their total subbed time trying out alts.

Most of the WoW clones dropped the worldiness and as a side effect dropped the variety. I think variety and replayability equals mucho cash and is one of the reasons games like AoC and WAR didn't live up to their maker's expectations. They both had interesting and distinctive classes but trying them out on exactly the same sequence of quests got painful really fast.

@@@

The Elder Scrolls games provide a good model so it's not like it's some radical change in game design. In terms of game mechanics the only things i'd need to change in a game like Morrowind to make it into the kind of MMORPG i'm talking about would be:

- multiple start locations depending on race and initial class choice e.g imperial and orc melee types might start as a new recruit to legion base, argonians might start as escaped slaves in the marsh, imperial and high elf non-melee recently arrived to be part of the imperial administration, dark eleves could be one of the houses or ashlander nomads etc. each starting position could have an early unique path and afterwards a choice between a lot of different options as in the original game.

- more factions incompatible so you couldn't complete everything on the same char

- "main" quest or in MMORPG terms epic quests don't start at level one. you start off with chores then minor faction quests then major quests then finally epic ones.

Originally posted by ioryadragon

Good post mate. I agree completly. but in your frustration you got to understand that the new generation is educated this way. Thinking too much, challening things these days are too much for the poor brains:

High Profits means quality

Easy means good, challengin is bad.

Common game design misconceptions.

Inconvenience is bad, but challenge is good (with the disclaimer that it has to be exactly as much challenge as the individual wants, which varies greatly.)

It's a super-important distinction that lazy nay-sayers find convenient to ignore.