Originally posted by Corehaven

I think almost all mmorpgs are about competition.  Almost all mechanics are set up around that. 

 

Think about it.  Even when you're in a group and you are all on the same page, you still have to roll and compete for loot if nothing else. 

 

You compete for crafting materials.  You compete for mob kills when you are trying to solo.  You obviously compete in PVP.   You even compete in auction house trading. 

 

I really cant think of one single facet of the standard mmorpg that doesnt have some sort of competition weaved into its core.  And competition creates an anti social environment.  When Im constantly sort of competing with every player I see, I begin to see them as a nuesance.  No longer do I want to group.  I'll just solo thanks. 

 

Because we're all at odds with each other anyways and my "allies" are really just people who are going to get in my way.  That may not be necessarily true, but in a subconsious way, it begins to seep in with all the competitive nature thats weaved into the game itself. 

 

Even most guilds Ive joined, one of the first things players seem to ask is, " How do I advance in rank in the guild? " after being in the guild for all of about 30 seconds.  Well sure my good man, you just joined 30 seconds ago.  I dubb you Admiral Snazzy Pants, and we shall all bow to you.  Even guild design is a competition. 

 

Even in most sports that are competitive you are on a team, and you stay on that team.  But in the standard mmorpg structure, you're never really on the same team.  The game isnt designed that way.  And its one of the industries greatest flaws.  Developers need to find ways to encourage people playing together.  Its good for the players, but its even better for the developers.  Are you going to be as tempted to stop playing an mmorpg after a year if you have 30 close friends inside who've you've had countless adventures with?  I seriously doubt it. 

You make a very good point! When competition is woven straight into the cloth, so to speak, you can't help but encourage a competitive atmosphere where you're more likely to hear "What's in it for me?" and "Don't get me killed" and "I'm not on that quest." People speak of wanting "community-building tools" and they usually mean enhanced friend lists and chat and guild features, but those do nothing if the mechanics of the game revolve around competition.

Can I praise FFXI for the 20,000th time? That was a fantastic example of a game where cooperation was built right into the mechanics. For starters, other than the rare Beastmaster soloer, everyone had to group in order to get good exp starting by around level 10. There simply was no option to solo for a while and get anywhere near the amount of experience you'd get in a party.

But even aside from that general mechanic of forced grouping for exp, there were specific things in place to make interaction with other players necessary. At level 18, you needed a rare drop from a ghoul to complete the quest to equip a subjob. (This was as good as saying you effectively cannot leave the level 18 area until you do that quest. Toons without subjobs were absolutely unacceptable past that level.) Ghouls spawned only at night, aggressively linked, and were harder to fight than other mobs of the same level. Like nearly every other mob in the game, there's no way to solo it without being several levels higher. If your party pulled ghouls for you and got you a skull, they were doing you a big favor. When you got the skull, you felt fairly obligated to stay in the party if another member also needed it but lost the roll.

It was a very early introduction to a mechanic that continued to come back throughout the game. At level 30, you unlock the quests for the advanced jobs: Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Bard, etc. These can't be soloed at 30 so you can't unlock those jobs without either high level help or a highly motivated party. And then again through the low 30s, in order to get the RSE armor set you need help to get keys... rare drops from specific mobs in dungeon zones that are generally too dangerous to grind in normally. And then at level 50, your experience bar STOPS until you complete Genkai 1, which again involves a rare drop from a specific type of mob in a dangerous, unpopular, mazelike dungeon. And then again for each piece of AF armor through the 50s, requiring either rare keys or a quest mob that requires a dozen people or more. And then again for most of your home nation's story missions and all of the story missions of the expansions.

Two things are worth noting about this game and these obstacles. First, deaths cost experience and return you to your bind point, which is guaranteed to be far from where you're fighting. So the people helping you are at risk of losing experience, and also there is the near-certainty of everything falling apart if there is a wipe (making it a waste of everyone's time) due to the fact that it would take a long time to make it back to the location. Second—and this is really vital—the other people helping you typically do not get any in-game reward for their altruism. You complete Genkai 1, they've already done it, they get nothing. You unlock Dragoon, they already have it, they get nothing. You get a key for your AF boots, they get nothing. Equipment doesn't even drop randomly off of mobs, so there isn't even the chance that maybe a decent weapon will drop that they take with them for their time.

I have a friend who played FFXI a lot longer than I did, and every time I've ever mentioned the game, this is the complaint that he can't let go of. They don't give you anything for helping on any of those quests. I used to vaguely nod in agreement, but as I've experienced poor communities in other games since then, I've begun to think that he's wrong. It's only because of those mechanics that FFXI turned out to have such a great community. If the aid from friends, acquaintences, and total strangers wasn't completely altruistic, those interactions would have had a different motivation behind them and they wouldn't have had the same effect.

Bravo seriously i never played FFIX but i agree with the notion.

Yes people buy and play games to have fun but its ok to be pushed and challenged. If there is a roadblock rise to the challenge and overcome you have fun feel accomplished and make friends doing it.

The OP is playing LOTRO and is talking about the new Rise of Isengard expansion.

LOTRO (depending the server you are on) has actually always had a very mature and helpful community.

There were also loads of Fellowship quests in all areas that required grouping up to complete. So in that time people were much more eager to team up with others.

Rise of Isengard is actually the first expansion that has EPIC FAIL written all over it. It's a COMPLETE SOLO expansion!

There is maybe a grand total of TWO Fellowship quests in the entire expansion (like the Pit) and the new endgame RAID. That's it!

The whole Rise of Isengard expansion screams SOLO. To make matters worse, the whole expansion pack is ON RAILS, you need to follow one quest hub to the next and unlock the quests within via the new Epic Book questline!

This pretty much causes everyone to be in a different part of the RAIL, even more discouraging people to team up and do quests together!

I myself I am highly dissapointed with this expansion and really don't know what Turbine was thinking designing this Expansion pack?!  Especially since all the NEGATIVE feedback Blizzard got from the Cataclysm expansion with it's extreme Phasing, causing the exact same problems I described above! So Turbine could have gotten a clue this is NOT the way to go! /facepalm

So it's not really just the players who become less and less social over time, it's also because of these stupid developers launching FAIL expansions like these that basically force people to be ANTI-social !! /double facepalm

I soon as I read the emo title of this thread on the front page I knew it was Eikal that authored it.  Sure enough...

I largely hate vent and ts mostly, because outside of raids that you are learning they serve no real use that is needed. Yes you can tell us faster how to do the boss fight in vent/ts, but yet these fights are not as complicated as the older fights were when vent/ts were around, and yet why did we not go and see the strats for them to knwo what we are doing. MOst of the time i found vent/ts empty or silent with alot of people in it, or even people in locked private chats even though vent'ts was required. One big issue i have is the length of time to level as well as hit end game/max level, which is one thing that makes solo okay since even without going aftr eite mobs you can level rather quickly. I remeber needing groups to tackle even non elites, some elites to level even at a slightly faster pace, also the pace of combat in older mmos was mucch slower. YOu could spend more time typing in your rotations, but now it is much faster paced meaning you can not do that anymore. If the difference in exp gained from elite and normal mobs were adjusted so that grouping to keep elites was the fastest way to level it, yet still would take awhile then you might see more use of groups as well as more socialism in the game as well.

If devs would make these games take longer to reach max level, it might hep make grouping more ued and social thtings more seen; I mean in most games now it takes what afew months for a casual gamer to reach max level with hardcore speed leveler getting it in weeks or a month or two, I would  like to see a game take me as a hardcore leveler take six months atleast to reach max. That way also they have that much more time to make, update, and fix or balance content in the game or exapansions. I am looking forwards to tsw myself i like the concept and idea of it, but i have been a rifter, wower, leneage *yes i knwo that is spelled wrong too tired), and many other games back to uo.  The biggest probblem is that with the laarge influx of gamers the standard of player has dropped greaatly, which is just hwo getting poplar is you get a slice f people, and then add in the fact that you can be hwo ever you want without fear of resprisal it compounds this issue, It is and is bnot wow's fault, but it is the fact of popilarity coming from wow's launch.

Elikal, i fully agree with you here. Did you ever made your own guild, or tryed to make one that would fit what you want?

I'll admit it.

I'm very anti-social in MMOs.

Do you know who made me that way? YOU! As in, my fellow MMO gamers.

I wasn't always like this. I'm old school. I sharpened my MMO teeth in UO. I played that game for 8 solid years, with the same group of people. I was very social then, and had a blast. We got to know each other so well, we held annual real life meetings.

As I've gotten older though, and started playing some of the more modern games, I find myself very turned off from the community for many of the reasons the OP stated and is frustrated by.

I don't know what (or why) attitudes have shifted, but, it's just not the same for me anymore.

Originally posted by Elikal

You know, ever since I left EQ2 I haven't been in one really good guild. Guilds in these days fall completely in two categories: pro raiders with weekly schedules and chat channel-guild. The first sort I don't want to join, because I don't want into these pecking orders, where loot is given on rankings and schedules are mandatory like in a job! And the second, you know the sentece I get all the time? "Well sorry but I am busy doing my quests now."

I just played in a rather difficult and dangerous zone in LOTRO, Isengart. And lots of people all around doing the same quests. And do you think just ONE of them would react to a LFG call? No. Many even prefer apparently do die again and again over joining someone.

You see, I am usually a helpful guy in MMOs. When someone has some task yet I have not, I used to help and just run along. Or when someone was LFG and didn't get help for some time, I just help for the sake of. Or when someone is in danger, I run and help. I mean, I saw that as normal for many years. But the last 2+ years, this has totally vanished from games. Back when SWG and EQ2 were new that was common! When someone needed help, it was easy to get help, whether this person had the same quests or not! It was give and take! And people were actually TALKING. Now, it's hi and bye and IF you get a group, people fight alongside like silent robots!

And don't me even get started about the Teamspeak faschism! I am so sick and tired to get kicked from groups when I say I don't do TS. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR YOU VOICE. Period. I mean, heck we did without TS in the old days against REALLY difficult mobs! In REALLY dangerous zones! People played UO and EQ years without any voiceover, just because they learned their class!

But what REALLY pisses me off like nothing else are these smartass "advisors"! People who will sent you tells about "how with THAT sword or THIS armour you totally suck!" Or how "this or that skills are TOTALLY bad", and sorry but that is the POX and BANE of WOW. No game forced this thrice be damned min-maxxing as much as WoW. Now you need to farm 2000 of these and 500 of them mobs, to get skill point X or faction gear Y. I am so tired of this bizarre sort of MMO design! Where have the times gone, when we just went off to adventure! When it was just we, some quested, looted or crafted gear and off you went!

 

Sigh. This entire genre and it's player so developed into something sick and anti-social. Its all no longer about exciting adventure, but stats and skills and grinding the right gear and demands and whatnot. This is just isn't they cooperative fun anymore, and all the wonder is replaced by the damn E-sports mentality.

/rant over

Beautiful post.  The community feeling is gone.  I felt it most strongly in SWG but I think there was something about that game that brought people together.  We were always helping each other back then.  The new games are different though.  It's more about action and leveling than socializing.  

I really dislike vent and teamspeak too, with the one major exception being APB.  But a lot of the time I like to play a female avatar, but being a guy the vent or ts ruins RP.   Also I hate fiddling with the damn programs: someone's too loud, someones too faint, someone's breathing heavily, someone is playing music, someone has an accent, someone has an annoying screechy child voice...........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Drives me crazy!

I am an Everquest player and I also played FFXI. I was a Red Mage in FFXI one of those classes that used to get courted for groups and never lacked one. In fact a lot of times no one would leave me bloody alone even when I wanted to be left alone. My friends who I would party with were mainly in my guild but I also belonged to a static group much later just before I quit playing. I had two players in my guild who were very nice people one played a dragoon and the other a samurai I think it was who never could get a group unless I was part of it. If I was not on they would cry to me when I finally got on about how long they had tried to get one and could do nothing without me.

My sub class was a White mage again this combination was a win win all around but not everyone can play classes like that can they ? People want variety or heaven forbid they rolled a class not many wanted like my poor wizard in Everquest. I could only get groups when my friends came on. Until they came on I was reduced to haunting Karnor Castle and watching whistfully from the sidelines as clerics and enchanters went by through the revolving door. Forced to stand like a kid outside the candy store with no money for any.

This was why I swore to myself never again am I playing a DPS class. In every game after that including vanilla WoW I never lacked for groups and vanilla WoW in the beginning too people talked and had conversations and we used to have mucho fun. I know that all this changed and with the introduction of the dungeon finder it went completely to hell in a handbasket. 

For all the times you talk about those games that forced grouping I remember my dragoon and samurai friend and I remember my wizard self too. Yes they may indeed have gone overboard on allowing people to solo .They need to balance it so that both work well. 

Originally posted by Elidien

Originally posted by Tutu2

I don't know what's going on anymore. Is it modern MMO mechaniacs encouraging people to be anti-social?  Is it a generation thing? Are people just anti-social because of bad experiences in groups? Mostly because of time restraints? I don't know. It's probably a mixture of all those things. I think MMO gamers in general are not very social to begin with, and if they can get rewards without an extra helping hand, they will.

Any thoughts/counter-arguments welcome.

It goes deeper than MMO's or the new generation of MMO's or whatever. Honestly its society today and its odd because we have the tools to be the most social people but in fact we are becoming very anti-social as a society (and I am mainly speaking of Western society mainly the US). Facebook, Youtube, reality TV, MySpace, blogs, etc.... do not make us social, they make us voyeurs. We want to be involved from a distance and only as far as we want to be. Community is gone, voyeurism is in.

The same is true for MMO's. People only want to be involved from a distance. Chat only when necessary, group only when necessary, support one another only when necessary. MMO's are not the problem but a symptom of the problem. And as I have said, what we experience in MMO's is just a relfection on society as a whole. And this is proven by developers just giving players what they want (and I mean the majority of players not the small percentage of us who care enough to post on a forum about it).

I think you've truly hit the nail on the head. This is the heart of the problem. Technology is making us increasingly lazy with socializing, combined with the stresses of modern life making people far less inclinded to connect with their communities. 

Originally posted by cheyane

For all the times you talk about those games that forced grouping I remember my dragoon and samurai friend and I remember my wizard self too. Yes they may indeed have gone overboard on allowing people to solo .They need to balance it so that both work well. 

Do they? This is a case where compromise won't cut it. If it's possible to get around the "forced" grouping just by spending a little extra time soloing, then you're just back to the default game mode where tons of people solo and you can't expect communication—much less altruism—from the strangers who inhabit the game with you. Yes this means accepting DRG LFG as an inevitability, but I see it as one or the other. There's no midpoint to be found where both of those problems go away.

In my first MMO I used to give away gear, and people gave me gear, too, whether they were clanmates or just people teamed up to level who needed something I had outgrown.  I had two classes that were 'high value' for leveling teams, too, and I loved playing them, it made up for all the times my 'low value' classes were in leveling teams and not contributing as much. 

But when I tried WoW, I was introduced to the entitlement crowd.  In my first instance with the first guild I joined, someone ninjad loot he couldn't use but I could have.  The guild leader got onto him about it, but he wasn't kicked because they knew him in real life, so I left the guild.  The second guild I was in was a mass invite type guild and everyone seemed to expect me and other higher levels to help level them and their alts, give them stuff, and practically play the game for them.  They didn't want a guild, they wanted power leveling services.  Keep in mind I never asked for anything.  I prefer to be self-sufficient when possible in all situations, and so I didn't feel in the least obligated to these lazy little turds.  WoW is too easy to level in, there is no need to ask anyone for help doing it.

When I hit 80 I could have found a smallish new raiding guild, but by then I was done, especially after the fun of dungeon finder wore off (and it was fun at first) from too many repetitions of heroics.  Besides, I would have had to use vent.  Vent gives me hives.  Or maybe cancer, one of those.

Originally posted by cheyane

I think your answer lies in joining a small game like Vanguard. Those games have a small population that help each other out. Successful games do not attract people who like to play with others because the game has many ways to solo and avoid interaction if need be. Although you can if you search hard find a few people even in WoW who are like minded. It is just that the population being so large the chances of finding like minded folks dwindle considearbly.

Yeah, its weird for me to read this thread.

I help people all the time in Vanguard ... I'm kinda surprised to read this doesnt happen in other MMOs.

Originally posted by jdlamson75

So let me get this right:  YOU don't want to be in voice communication, and everyone else is anti-social?  Gotcha.

No, I don't want to use voice either. ^^  WAY too many people these days have NO concept of communication discipline. They babble and rave about the most inane things. Not to mention that most have little emotional control over their out bursts.  Back in the Old Days(tm) text was more than enough for everything we did. But people these days are too damn lazy, not to mention thoughtless to have any personal control.

I suspect its due to the wider demographic thats involved in gaming these days.  It more closely reflects a cross section of the general population...<Lord help us all...>

I know that I've become much more anti social than I used to be.  Looking at it, its more self defense than anything.  There are so many more nut cases, goof offs and screw ups involved these days, that its just not worth dealing with them. 

Voice comms are an integral part of the pvp clan/group/guild scene, especially for those groups who try to operate at the more competitive edges of the pvp space. We did indeed do it "back in the olde days" without them, but now we have access to them and they are indeed an improvement on typing out information.

In and of themselves they are far from antisocial, being merely a medium through which groups can coordinate in a far more efficient manner then trying to bang out some text in a chat box.

The anti-social issue is purely down to the players themselves and an the overall dynamics of the mmos of the day, not of a single mechanic within them which is intended to aid communication, not hinder it.

The fact that mmos are making more and more content soloable whilst at the same time reducing the need for inter-player cooperation through non combat orientated player driven mechanics, will invariably lead to an increase in players who don;t want to socialise with others. That is the key issue.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Voice comms are an integral part of the pvp clan/group/guild scene, especially for those groups who try to operate at the more competitive edges of the pvp space. We did indeed do it "back in the olde days" without them, but now we have access to them and they are indeed an improvement on typing out information.

 

In and of themselves they are far from antisocial, being merely a medium through which groups can coordinate in a far more efficient manner then trying to bang out some text in a chat box.

 

The anti-social issue is purely down to the players themselves and an the overall dynamics of the mmos of the day, not of a single mechanic within them which is intended to aid communication, not hinder it.

 

The fact that mmos are making more and more content soloable whilst at the same time reducing the need for inter-player cooperation through non combat orientated player driven mechanics, will invariably lead to an increase in players who don;t want to socialise with others. That is the key issue.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with using vent for pvp.  I'll even use vent for pvp, although I'd prefer it were built in.  I don't see why I should have to download a client and put myself at a privacy risk to use something that many gamers now consider essential for some gameplay elements. 

Anyway, in games lacking a constant threat of open world pvp, requiring guild members to use vent whenever they're online is foolish and heavy handed.  It's not fair to the hearing impaired or those with speech difficulties, either.  I'm sorry many otherwise educated people haven't had a touch typing course or worse, can see perfectly fine, aren't dyslexic, yet can't read very well, but that's not my problem, and I can and will read just about any mangled, misspelled communication sent my way much happier than I'll put up with some stranger's voice in my ear.

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Voice comms are an integral part of the pvp clan/group/guild scene, especially for those groups who try to operate at the more competitive edges of the pvp space. We did indeed do it "back in the olde days" without them, but now we have access to them and they are indeed an improvement on typing out information.
 
In and of themselves they are far from antisocial, being merely a medium through which groups can coordinate in a far more efficient manner then trying to bang out some text in a chat box.
 
The anti-social issue is purely down to the players themselves and an the overall dynamics of the mmos of the day, not of a single mechanic within them which is intended to aid communication, not hinder it.
 
The fact that mmos are making more and more content soloable whilst at the same time reducing the need for inter-player cooperation through non combat orientated player driven mechanics, will invariably lead to an increase in players who don;t want to socialise with others. That is the key issue.
 
 

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

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Humans are social animals. If they aren't socializing in game, then something is wrong with the games. It's not the solo content. If you have forced grouping, the players don't socialize more, they leave.

The social tools available in game haven't changed since 2002. It's almost 2012. Things like text chat in phones, MySpace, Facebook and Twitter have changed the way that people socialize on line. Mmorpg need to catch up.

There are many ways that mmorpg limit the number of people that you would ever want to talk to. You can only be a member of one permanent group (guild). You must be available for any idiot and gold spammer to talk to. In game email is clunky. In short, in game social tools should work a lot more like Facebook, not Aol.

 

Ah "forced grouping" that old chestnut. It is akin to calling a game mechanic that requires just one individual "forced isolationism". Unless a game is immediately ramming you into a group each and every time you log on and you are incapable of attempting any kind of interaction or mechanic in the game world at all without a group of players then there is no "forced grouping". Amazingly more often then not if players have to interact with others in an MMO they do just that, they don't all up sticks and quit. Those who would rather leave than work with others could be called... antisocial.

Humans may indeed be social animals but they are also animals that chase after the path of least resistance. If a game is going to offer more and more content which the player can blast through without having to interact with others, then you can be sure that a significant amount of them will do exactly that. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that it is.

People also do indeed socialise with a select minority within the context of the majority, but then that does not mean that it is a good thing socially to reduce the interaction with said majority. People also need to keep in mind that the whole interacting with the community thing is not about having to get 5 more other people together to do a raid, it is also interacting with player merchants, crafters et al. Games increasingly marginalise the need for interaction.

As for updated communication tools, isn't that exactly what voice comms are?

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by cheyane

I think your answer lies in joining a small game like Vanguard. Those games have a small population that help each other out. Successful games do not attract people who like to play with others because the game has many ways to solo and avoid interaction if need be. Although you can if you search hard find a few people even in WoW who are like minded. It is just that the population being so large the chances of finding like minded folks dwindle considearbly.

Yeah, its weird for me to read this thread.

I help people all the time in Vanguard ... I'm kinda surprised to read this doesnt happen in other MMOs.