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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Idea: Remove questing from MMORPG’s

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129 posts found
  Meltdown

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/09/03
Posts: 1191

10/17/11 9:16:03 AM#21

Quests are becoming more streamlined which I actually enjoy much more than chasing after the "?"s. Cataclysm dungeons had this system and it was received very well. Enter an area, you automatically get a "quest" if you clear the area you are rewarded with xp and possibly items for your due diligence. No chasing "?"s, no reading up how you're supposed to click a specific hidden sparkly thing.

 

While I typically dislike things that are "dumbed down" and made easier for the masses, I think this is the right direction for quests and honestly are more like DnD quests than your typical go here, gather 10 this. You enter an area, you fight monsters, maybe you find someone trapped, some stolen goods, or defeat some evil sorceror and the rewards are greater... much better than 100 go kill 10 squirrels quests which all give you 1/100th of the reward of that bigger quest.

 

As far as removing them altogether I disagree. Even UO and EQ had forms of quests (UO had the worst escort quests in the world if anyone remembers). I think WoW stumbled upon something with combining story with quests and then the whole system got boiled down to a go here kill X system. It has regressed, but in general I feel the questing systems is steadily improving and evolving. 

"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

10/17/11 9:17:54 AM#22
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12141

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/17/11 9:19:04 AM#23
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by GrayGhost79


Originally posted by lizardbones
MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.



Yeah UO was 14 years ago. They are still up and running and still able to charge a monthly fee but the facts show the money is clearly in themeparks. 
AoC - oh wait...... they went free to play. 
DDO - oh wait...... they went free to play.
LotRO - oh wait..... they went free to play. 
STO - Oh wait......... they went free to play. 
DCUO - Oh wait....... they went free to play. 
CO - Oh wai........ they went free to play. 
Surely EQ2 - oh wait they went free to play. 
You know...... come to think of it. How many themeparks that have come along since EQ1 are still able to charge a monthly fee?
So sure....... some have made more money by adding quests. WoW, Rift, EQ1.....
But most seem forced to either go free to play or shut down. 
 




Making more money is making more money. Doesn't matter if you make more money with box sales, subscription fees or a cash shop.

 

Exactly. Several of those presented are very succesful MMOs, and most of them are far more successful than most of the current MMOs that aren't quest-based.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

10/17/11 9:23:14 AM#24
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by lizardbones

MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.

Yeah UO was 14 years ago. They are still up and running and still able to charge a monthly fee but the facts show the money is clearly in themeparks. 

AoC - oh wait...... they went free to play. 

DDO - oh wait...... they went free to play.

LotRO - oh wait..... they went free to play. 

STO - Oh wait......... they went free to play. 

DCUO - Oh wait....... they went free to play. 

CO - Oh wai........ they went free to play. 

Surely EQ2 - oh wait they went free to play. 

You know...... come to think of it. How many themeparks that have come along since EQ1 are still able to charge a monthly fee? How many flops have there been? People are clinging to games like DFO and MO because there really isn't any other option. EvE is doing well still though. 

So sure....... some have made more money by adding quests. Aion, WoW, Rift, EQ1.....

But most seem forced to either go free to play or shut down. 

 

 

In the interest of complete clarity.....EQ2 did NOT go free to play.  They made a new mirror-like GAME called EQ2X that is free to play.  EQ2 on the Live servers is still 15 bucks a month and has no restrictions other than the vampire race which you have to pay to play in BOTH forms of EQ2.

 

On topic:  Take quests out of games.  Uhm.....no.  I like the fact that they slowly tell a story (at least in some games) and feed you the game lore in tidbits.  Now when I say "no"....I don't mean I like quests in their present form.  I'm thinking at least more like GW2 if not totally different.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Boreil

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 452

10/17/11 9:24:52 AM#25
Originally posted by crysent

It seems to me this has already been done before - Ultima Online had no real quest, Shadowbane was questless, Mortal Online, Darkfall at release. 

 

It's been done by a couple of "sandbox" MMO's - The result has not been as great as you would think...the big problem with questless MMO's is the powergamer, the guy who spends 14 hours a day playing MMO's and discovers everything within the first week leaving nothing for the casual player..

umm Darkfall had quests in beta and were in on release , anyway mmorpg's dont need to do away with quests all together , but they need to do away with all the 1000 Bs quests you get in between the real quests with meaning . Quests should be about Lore , story and the world around it ,there can still be all those kill 10 of this or go fetch this quest , but present them in a diferent way , not as actual quest content , have traders who send you out for gathering things for them as "hunter/gather" tasks , even have a task board's  in citys to pick up hunt and kill tasks if you want , but make actual quests real and mean something . Take leveling up totaly out of questing , thats what grouping  is for.

  EverSkelly

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/04
Posts: 338

10/17/11 9:26:54 AM#26

It's ok when there's quests for beginners, kind of a tutorial. New player, doing beginner quests should find out some stuff about his class and game lore. Like "We're dark elves, necromancy is the most respectable art in our society, blabla, go and get me 3 halfling skins, then i will give you a black necromancer's robe."

After that a player should start exploring adjacent lands, going further and further.

Occasional quests could be there for those who love questing, but there should be no exp rewards for it.

When you start doing quest hubs and mindless quest grinding, a game becomes just a big tutorial, not a world.

There also may be the epic quests for class defining abilities or epic gear.

  WintersWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 8/05/10
Posts: 22

10/17/11 9:29:40 AM#27

Isn't Guild Wars 2 sort of heading in this direction? With the quests being more dynamic and just happening rather than being initiated with a static npc, if it meets the hype it could be the right direction and make the grind feel more natural without interrupting you with mindless npc chatter.

  ThaneUlfgar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/11
Posts: 288

10/17/11 9:39:57 AM#28

No one makes you do the quests, in even the most quest based MMO's. In the two I've played most recently, Warhammer online and WoW, sure, there are quests all over the place, but if you feel like it, you are most welcome to go find an enemy village, keep, group of boars, etc and kill them until your little heart is content.

 

I think quests are fine as an option, but even in World of Warcraft, you still have the option to do what you want, when you want. There are alternatives to questing as far as progressing your character, so I'm not sure why quests should be removed. Personally, as long as I have options, I'm fine.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

10/17/11 9:44:38 AM#29

Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

 

All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

 

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Looking Towards: Destiny

  Onigod

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/07
Posts: 692

10/17/11 9:47:52 AM#30

I believe that a real sandbox mmorpg with a slight themepark feeling to it for the casuals will be the future of mmorpgs.

Just these days small companies are only creating them with limited recourses  they know that this is what players want and they are fun and all of there concepts sound amazing just there limited recourses and expierience makes the game lacking in many ways, and the big companys these day that just shove a amount of money into a product and make it happen rather stay with something safe.

  Boreil

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 452

10/17/11 9:52:51 AM#31
Originally posted by BadSpock

Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

 

All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

 

As long as im  having fun there is no such thing as grind, story/quests or not  .

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

10/17/11 9:59:26 AM#32

GW2 won't have ANY quests in the open world and the "personal story" bit is optional...

We'll see how it goes. Maybe this is finally the beginning of the end for the traditional quests in mmos? /crossfingers

... and Firefall the F2P mmo shooter is to have dynamic events as the basis of its PvE gameplay. From what I gather "quests" in FF are nothing more than pointers to events already happening in the open world or stuff that you generate yourself (like placing a mining thumper and pulling a sh**load of mobs). So we'll be able to see how "events" work out even before GW2 comes out.. and for free! :D

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10578

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

10/17/11 10:12:17 AM#33


Originally posted by GrayGhost79


Originally posted by lizardbones
 



Originally posted by GrayGhost79




Originally posted by lizardbones
MMORPG started without quests. Companies added quests and they made more money.





Yeah UO was 14 years ago. They are still up and running and still able to charge a monthly fee but the facts show the money is clearly in themeparks. 
AoC - oh wait...... they went free to play. 
DDO - oh wait...... they went free to play.
LotRO - oh wait..... they went free to play. 
STO - Oh wait......... they went free to play. 
DCUO - Oh wait....... they went free to play. 
CO - Oh wai........ they went free to play. 
Surely EQ2 - oh wait they went free to play. 
You know...... come to think of it. How many themeparks that have come along since EQ1 are still able to charge a monthly fee?
So sure....... some have made more money by adding quests. WoW, Rift, EQ1.....
But most seem forced to either go free to play or shut down. 
 





Making more money is making more money. Doesn't matter if you make more money with box sales, subscription fees or a cash shop.

 


Hey your right, just because players didn't enjoy the game enough to actually stick around and play it that shouldn't mean anything for an MMO. Long as you get that box sales. Most that play free to plays actually don't spend any cash, those that do though tend to spend a good bit so I will have to give that one to you. 
But keep in mind, that model seems to be tanking faster and faster with each release. The markets saturated with Themeparks and this is the biggest reason most themeparks fail to hold people or perform well. 
Also keep in mind some of the best selling games period, Non MMO of course are sandbox. 
While MMO devs seem to ignore this, at least other devs aren't. 
 



Players aren't sticking around for games they don't like. That doesn't even make sense. Players are getting something out of the game, even if it's just to pass the time with their friends.

I think this is how a sandbox proponent sees success and failure. There are more people playing and enjoying Rift right now than are playing Eve, but Rift is a failure and Eve is a success. More people have purchased and played Rift in 7 months than have played Eve in 7 years. But Rift is a failure and Eve is a success. Except Eve has, you guessed it, quests so I guess Eve is actually a failure, disguised as a success.

Let's go on to single player RPG sandboxes. They are full, full to the brim with quests. You talk to people in the game and you will pick up quests whether you want them or not. Skyrim will be the newest example of this. But of course, those are the games that MMO developers are ignoring. MMO developers are doing anything like what you'd find in a single player RPG. << That's sarcasm.

Anyway, we're not even talking about sandbox versus theme park. We're talking about quests. If you could make a questless game, that was also compelling, then yeah, it would probably work. The only thing that people have managed to come up with is PvP to replace quests.

I think the best anyone will come up with is making quests more like conversations and less like checklists. Remove the stupid ones, like handing an object to the guy standing next to you. I don't see it happening any time soon, but somebody will come up with questing content where you don't do it and think to yourself, "I need to finish this quest."

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

10/17/11 10:17:16 AM#34
Originally posted by Boreil
Originally posted by BadSpock

Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

Real problem is quests in MMOs can hardly be called story because they are so limited by the genre itself.

Hence, you see TOR and GW2 and TSW taking quests to another level in giving them actual story and meaning and purpose.

All MMOs are a grind, it's just that the good ones hide the grind behind the fun.

As long as im  having fun there is no such thing as grind, story/quests or not  .

Exactly the point.

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Looking Towards: Destiny

  FearTHeFro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 69

10/17/11 10:28:02 AM#35

I think there should be some sort of option for people who want to quest and those who don't.

 

Everyone knows in most mmos its near stupid to try to just grind your way to the highest level since questing is so much faster. But there are people out there (like me) who can't stand questing and having to follow a long quest line and all that stuff and would rather just grind it out in my own way. Maybe there is a way to balance out quest rewards vs grinding so that people who enjoy one or the other have a choice and both will get you to the same ending at the same speed.

 

Mostly this is the reason why I haven't found a good mmo to play for the last 10 years, all of them are the same "kill x amount of enemies, collect x amount of this, go do this" over and over until you are the max level can become extremely boring.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

10/17/11 11:17:14 AM#36
Originally posted by FearTHeFro

I think there should be some sort of option for people who want to quest and those who don't.

 

Everyone knows in most mmos its near stupid to try to just grind your way to the highest level since questing is so much faster. But there are people out there (like me) who can't stand questing and having to follow a long quest line and all that stuff and would rather just grind it out in my own way. Maybe there is a way to balance out quest rewards vs grinding so that people who enjoy one or the other have a choice and both will get you to the same ending at the same speed.

 

Mostly this is the reason why I haven't found a good mmo to play for the last 10 years, all of them are the same "kill x amount of enemies, collect x amount of this, go do this" over and over until you are the max level can become extremely boring.

In most games with quest based levelling the xp you will get for killing a mob is really bad. And often if some are grinding mobs to level anyway the devs will think something needs to be done about it. -Everyone should be doing quest. We dont want people to "grind". And they will nerf mob xp next patch. And perhaps boost quest xp also.... Its very sad. But this attitude is common among devs that work with games that follow the WoW-model. They try to force people to play like they intend the game to be played. And if its possible to do it in other ways its a problem they need to address..

  Lathial

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 176

 
OP  10/17/11 2:17:37 PM#37
Originally posted by Dvalon

 
What if we took the quests out of MMO’s? Why not just created a large explorable world with interesting lore and creatures. Where “living” within this world and learning of its cultures and finding ancient ruins to explore was the “quests”.  Remove the predetermined set of experiences (quests) and just release the players into the world and let them create their own stories.  If we do this, we won’t be “cookie cutters” of each other.  We will truly have our own stories of where we have been and what we have seen and done.
 
Lathial

I think Blizzard agree's with you, at least in terms of Diablo, just look at how they are now delivering lore, and quest type data to the player, its done via voice over as the player is out in the field, cains voice groans out your headset explaining some lore about the spiky demon you just killed.

 

I also think that quests are good but have to agree that they should not be the sole purpose of play, I think all quest hubs should be removed from mmo's there should be no hints where to go, you leave the city and are faced with an open world to explore, while doing so you come accross a field full of rats and some farmer chasing them about, he shouts you over and asks if you will help him kill them, you do so happily killing all his pests for a small reward.

 

Put quests in or near their objective, make players look around the world to find them brings back exploration, keeps quests, the only quests that you should gain from a central location are epic quests that send out on some epic mission.

 

 

I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  I really dont think questing should be completely removed. However, in its standard form it should be removed.  Get rid of questing hubs and make exploring and "quests" be something you chance across- like the farmer example you listed is a great example.  It is a quest in real time- you come across a farmer and you help him right then.  You dont accept the quest and come back a few days later- it happens right then and will not be available later.   I know games are trying this now (dynamic quests?) like RIFT did with rifts and how GW2 is doing quests.  

Questing should feel natural and be something you come across while exploring the world- not pointed out to you- that lead you from zone to zone to zone in a predetermined path.  Like finding a acient ruin where you decipher some old lore that leads you on a search for someone who may kno more about it.  Eventually you speak with a elder and he progresses the story and lore further- where eventually you are searching for clues about a lost culture and find some old ruins filled with mobs etc.  

However, quests should not hold your hand.  What is the purpose of doing quests when you are told where to go with "glowing arrows" - that is not questing- that is more like playing simon says or follow the leader.  When we think of questing in the real world- think of something like archeology (not wow archeology).  Archeologists are not given a map with arrows pointing to the exact spot to dig.  They have to take the clues they are given and try to figure out what to do next.

Lath

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

10/18/11 6:19:54 AM#38
Originally posted by Lathial

 

I have played (and tried) pretty much every MMO from UO to Rift and one thing that has become more and more predominant in games is questing.   In most games these days you can quest from level one to cap.  In my opinion, game companies used the single player quest driven games (like Oblivion, Balders Gate etc) and just added a multiplayer option to them.  With SWTOR coming out soon and taking questing to “another level” with voiced actors etc it got me thinking: I think this might be the wrong direction for MMO’s
 
Below are some ideas of why this may be the wrong direction and maybe some suggestions of how to correct this.  (This list of ideas is not complete nor is it about one game.  It is my opinion of how questing is “hurting” MMO’s) suggestions, additions and comments are welcomed-
 
-questing is “grinding”.  It is grinding with powdered sugar sprinkled on top.  You still have to kill 1,000 rats but at least you are doing it for a reason. Unfortunately, the reason you are killing rats is so bland that most people do not read or do not care to read why.   Most of us have done this so often that it hurts our eyes to read the quests.
 
-quests have no impact on the game.  In single player RPG’s you kill the rats and “poof” you can see the results and now all the rats are gone from the sewers.  You can re-visit the sewers and all the rats are “still” dead.  You made an impact on the game.
 
-questing hurts exploration.  Questing guides players through a predetermined set experience.  Everyone does the same thing from start to finish.  Games do not have to be “worldly” if they have a lot of quests that guide players though the experience.  For example, RIFT, is a very small world.  There is not a lot of exploring to do in the game and it is so packed with quests that each zone zooms by without impacting your experience.
 
-questing ruins “your story”.  I think this is the most important point of them all.  “Your story” is being created by the quests.  Your character is the result of quests- not the story you created for your character.   In single player RPG’s your story is usually grand and you “save the world” and the things you do have an impact upon the game (you killed all the rats in the sewer. Now, there are no more rats in the sewer).  In EQ1, UO and other older games, I can only remember a handful of quests.  I think there was some basic “turn in rat pelts” and the other quests were epic quests for “epic” rewards.   In the in-between-time the player created their own story by exploring and experiencing the game by weaving their own characters quests and story. 
 
What if we took the quests out of MMO’s? Why not just created a large explorable world with interesting lore and creatures. Where “living” within this world and learning of its cultures and finding ancient ruins to explore was the “quests”.  Remove the predetermined set of experiences (quests) and just release the players into the world and let them create their own stories.  If we do this, we won’t be “cookie cutters” of each other.  We will truly have our own stories of where we have been and what we have seen and done.
 
Lathial

I long for the days where I camped NPC spots in Everquest 1.


  Also I kept hitting "NEXT" with that wall of text, didn't hear your voiceover.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

10/18/11 6:27:05 AM#39
Originally posted by BadSpock

Open world no story/quests only "works" if there is no grind for stats/levels/gear/skills.

Without story, all you are doing is grinding...

Imagine World of Warcraft with no quests and levels, a much bigger world of course, where you can mine rocks or hire NPC's to mine rocks, NPC's walking back and forth to a blacksmith you just constructed.  You slowly build up stone, wood, copper, tin, etc.  Then in an hour if no enemy player attacks you you have enough materials to build a Norman Tower (you're a human player).  In next 5 minutes you build a barracks next to it to churn out soldiers, and enchant your solder's weapons cause your an enchanter.  OMG AN ENEMY PLAYER SHOWS UP TRAILING 10 SOLDER NPC'S and 10 ARCHER NPC'S!!!!!!!

.

.

.

story to be continued, never.  Cause you guys would rather do flex emotes in front of the auction house in your glowing armor than own a castle, how sad.  I'd rather own a castle with an army of NPC's.

"The story" in this game is war, player politics, economy, and making your civilization look cool by decorating your stuff.  Sort of a cross between MMORPG and RTS.

  Nerf09

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/04
Posts: 3008

10/18/11 6:30:11 AM#40
Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

No one makes you do the quests, in even the most quest based MMO's. In the two I've played most recently, Warhammer online and WoW, sure, there are quests all over the place, but if you feel like it, you are most welcome to go find an enemy village, keep, group of boars, etc and kill them until your little heart is content.

 

Wrong, you are forced to quest.  If you don't quest you'll end up at level 20 wearing rags and wielding a starter rusted axe.

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