Originally posted by Boreil

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by Sorrow

The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.

These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.

This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.

Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.

Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.

Ask a modern game designer about  RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics?  What does race have to do with game design? "

How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.

Albert Einstein defined Insanity,

" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "

Do we really ever expect different results?

 

I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don'[t get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...

No he's absolutly  right , back in the day  people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .

I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits.

To the OP:

I am in the same boat. I have actually quit playing MMORPGs all together. I have been play about the same amount of time as you and I am sick of the whole thing. That new WoW pet that can be bought with real money and traded is dumb. The Diablo 3 cash shop is going to be dumb. It's all just dumb. Games used to be way better with way less. SWTOR is a going to be a sad story, not because of the money it will make (which will be a lot), but by the fact that a company like Bioware is doing it and it's nothing but a copy and paste of WoW. WoW had some great changes to the genre, but now all we have are copy cats. Hell WoW is a copy of it's self now.....a bad one at that.

We should all start making our own games,.

Check out unity blender and gimp they are all free.

in a couple of hours i was able to make my own exsploring game, it was the bad landscape i created myself  but was fun.

I can do what i want  when i want .

I 'm not as educated as most are, so if i can do it then anyone can.

I agree with the OP as far as item shops in MMOs but SP DLC I totally fine with. I don't have to buy a large expansion but I can buy a few small adventure packs that I feel are worth it. There still is a problem where some games are asking for much more than their DLC is worth.

"I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits."

The older MMORPGs were designed by people who played pen & paper games - obviously - because at the time they were the only people who knew about those kind of games. They were trying to bring their tabletop games to life.

The newer MMORPGs are designed by people trying to recreate WoW's financial success.

That's the big difference.

What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.

The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

 

The older MMORPGs were designed by people who played pen & paper games - obviously - because at the time they were the only people who knew about those kind of games. They were trying to bring their tabletop games to life.

The newer MMORPGs are designed by people trying to recreate WoW's financial success.

That's the big difference.

What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.

The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.

Every time I try to explain this, I end up with an entire wall rant and I go far beyond the point.    So, very good form, sir.

Nicely done.  ^^

Originally posted by GreenHell

Sometimes I wonder if this genre will crash like video gaming did in the states back in 83. The situations are becoming similar in many ways. No one thought it would happen leading up to 83. I also wonder if the genre wouldn't be better off if it did crash. Would it come back better?

I always thought more MMO's would be a good thing but as time goes on we have more games yet fewer options. They are all so similar these days. I'm with you OP. The direction they are all going is not what I see as gaming euphoria thats for sure.

Great post by the OP, the genre just isn't the same genre anymore.

I am back playing MUDS; with 60 players online much more fun than the current MMOs. And NWN1 and 2 mods with friends.

I atill have a few active mainstream subs active but rarely play them anymore. Games like Citadel of Sorcery sound like we may get the genre back on track.

The sooner the remove Insta Travel/Mail/Auction Houses PvP and drop in a few us against the world MMOs that are challenging maybe we will be back on track until then. I have no need to play whack a mole ... I can spend my time more wisely.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Subscriptions have been 15 bucks a month for almost a decade and in virtually every p2p and all freemium games you still get access to the entire game without a cash shop.  You just pay for expansions - the same as it has always been for almost all p2p games.

The living breathing worlds are still there, they are not even hidden.  Literally everything you did in EQ you can do in modern MMO's and a great many more things too.

It's just your perception, you need to take a break for awhile.  It happens to us all.

Venge

What a load of rubbish.... Its about the communities and gameplay it just doesn't exist anymore there is no challenge anymore and 98% of the player base are just dumb....

There is a difference between perception and gameplay and that is what the poster was reffering to.

The take a break comment is pathetic, but I guess lazy replies is what it's all about these days along with lazy development.

Originally posted by tupodawg999

What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.

The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.

I agree completely.  The 1st generation clones left a lot to be desired, and in many ways missed main parts of the WoW appeal, not to mention as you said "runs on a toaster"  *grin*.  Additional generations aren't even close, with a few exceptions.

WoW is (or was*) a world game for free-roaming explorers, a territorial defense game for PVPers**, a solo (or coop) quester for casuals, a coop dungeon runner for mid-harcores, a raid game for hardcores, a faction based PVP game tucked away in instances so as to avoid disruption of the main world.

* recent changes include lobby based coop, solo questers with deep storyline arcs, and soon lobby based raiding.

** refering to overlands like attacking / defending Crossroads or trying to kill opposing side faction bosses.

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Subscriptions have been 15 bucks a month for almost a decade and in virtually every p2p and all freemium games you still get access to the entire game without a cash shop.  You just pay for expansions - the same as it has always been for almost all p2p games.

The living breathing worlds are still there, they are not even hidden.  Literally everything you did in EQ you can do in modern MMO's and a great many more things too.

It's just your perception, you need to take a break for awhile.  It happens to us all.

Venge

What a load of rubbish.... Its about the communities and gameplay it just doesn't exist anymore there is no challenge anymore and 98% of the player base are just dumb....

There is a difference between perception and gameplay and that is what the poster was reffering to.

The take a break comment is pathetic, but I guess lazy replies is what it's all about these days along with lazy development.

I agree,  what you stated was a load of rubbish.  There is just as much community as before, in fact there are a great many communities.  Dozens of communities will exist in one game now, some you will like, others you want.  Go find the one you like.  Further there are literally hundreds of games out there with thousands of communities. 

MMO's were never hard, they were tedious and time consuming, I'm sorry you find that hard. 

There is a difference between perception and gameplay.  And in some games the gameplay is different however with most games there is not very many actual gameplay changes.  So the issue now is perception not gameplay because gameplay mechanics are pretty much the same, haven't changed in a decade. Every single solitary thing you did in EQ you can do in wow. 

Take a break comment is completely valid.  Every hobby gets tiresome after a time and people need breaks.  Doesn't matter whether its' games, carving, canoeing, exercising.... after a time you need a break and guess what it's healthy to do it.

Just old embittered ex-gamers still waving their signs.

Venge

edit - this wasn't directed at the OP.  That was fairly well thought out and reasonable, I don't agree with a lot of reasons but I can't argue his feelings about them.

No this was directed at all the old fogies that came after him.

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Subscriptions have been 15 bucks a month for almost a decade and in virtually every p2p and all freemium games you still get access to the entire game without a cash shop.  You just pay for expansions - the same as it has always been for almost all p2p games.

The living breathing worlds are still there, they are not even hidden.  Literally everything you did in EQ you can do in modern MMO's and a great many more things too.

It's just your perception, you need to take a break for awhile.  It happens to us all.

Venge

What a load of rubbish.... Its about the communities and gameplay it just doesn't exist anymore there is no challenge anymore and 98% of the player base are just dumb....

There is a difference between perception and gameplay and that is what the poster was reffering to.

The take a break comment is pathetic, but I guess lazy replies is what it's all about these days along with lazy development.

yyyyyyup.

+1

@ OP

Totally Agree! 

My favorites were AO, EQ, DAoC and SWG.

Welcome to the age of cash shops, solo playing and lobby ques for dungeon running in our mmorpg's today.

Posted this in another thread this morning but it is actually more relevant here.

Themeparks have already reached their pinnacle and are beggining their decline. SWTOR will be the last big budget wow-formula type. Especially when sub numbers begin the tumble as in Wow/Rift model. I know this is still to be seen but I feel the same sub problems will plauge SWTOR when the shiny wears off and the grind becomes apparent.

Sandboxers rejoice our era is just starting. Creating high quality tools for players to create never ending fresh content as opposed to developers creating increasingly more expensive content in quantities to appeal to the masses is the way development is beggining to shift. Being a project and operations manager at several levels for years I know profitability rules the development and publishing houses. This FTP craze is companies trying to salvage profit margins off of inferior software and human greed mentality to "grease the wheels" not because it is hip.

Face it many gamers are just lazy or do not have the required time due to real world obligations. Games reflect this in the dumbing down of game mechanics. Creative thinkers and problem solvers will flourish in the new sandbox environment and gamers that lack creativity and basic problem solving skills will migrate to console gaming.

It never ceases to amaze me just how little people that pretend to be educated actually know about the history of this industry, I grew up with it and with the people that founded it.

Brad McQuaid still rants and raves and has posted tons of manifesto's about how the evil corporations have stolen the dream and perverted the purity of what they were trying to create. Right now he is trying for the third time to create his dream world, without it being stolen by the greedy corporations that put profit before the game as he says.

Granted Brad stole his concept from Cathryn Mataga ( the programmer and driving force behind AOL's NWN ),  I mean to give credit where its due, she yup, that's right a WOMAN is the mother of this entire industry. Anyway I was at Wizard's of the Coast in 1997 when we aquired TSR and had to listen to the constant hell raising over how Brad was a snake in the grass just like Bill Gates. Everyone knew Brad's wife was actually the only game designer in that house with any talent , and to give more credit where it is due, she ( yup that right another WOMAN ) was the talent and driving force behind the development of EQ 2.

On the other side of the coin was Lord British, the Dungeon Master turned game designer. On numerous occasions he was quoted as saying the " suits  "  would destroy the industry before it ever got a chance to spread its wings.

 Now I am not going to deny both of these icons of the industry did not profit from their creations, but BOTH of them had their games stolen out from under them, and in Brad's case actually tried to fight a lawsuit to keep creative control of his game but lost to SOE's team of corporate lawyers.

So let's not say for a second this industry was created for the money, because the industry was created by dreamers, psychotics, and nutjobs, it was just stolen by the people that made it all about the money.

Originally posted by Sorrow

It never ceases to amaze me just how little people that pretend to be educated actually know about the history of this industry, I grew up with it and with the people that founded it.

Brad McQuaid still rants and raves and has posted tons of manifesto's about how the evil corporations have stolen the dream and perverted the purity of what they were trying to create. Right now he is trying for the third time to create his dream world, without it being stolen by the greedy corporations that put profit before the game as he says.

Granted Brad stole his concept from Cathryn Mataga ( the programmer and driving force behind AOL's NWN ),  I mean to give credit where its due, she yup, that's right a WOMAN is the mother of this entire industry. Anyway I was at Wizard's of the Coast in 1997 when we aquired TSR and had to listen to the constant hell raising over how Brad was a snake in the grass just like Bill Gates. Everyone knew Brad's wife was actually the only game designer in that house with any talent , and to give more credit where it is due, she ( yup that right another WOMAN ) was the talent and driving force behind the development of EQ 2.

On the other side of the coin was Lord British, the Dungeon Master turned game designer. On numerous occasions he was quoted as saying the " suits  "  would destroy the industry before it ever got a chance to spread its wings.

 Now I am not going to deny both of these icons of the industry did not profit from their creations, but BOTH of them had their games stolen out from under them, and in Brad's case actually tried to fight a lawsuit to keep creative control of his game but lost to SOE's team of corporate lawyers.

So let's not say for a second this industry was created for the money, because the industry was created by dreamers, psychotics, and nutjobs, it was just stolen by the people that made it all about the money.

Can't comment on UO.  But who stole Brad's games?

EQ was always owned by SOE.  VG he sold to SOE.  Nothing stolen there.

Venge

edit - and face it, if AOL didn't think they stood a reasonable chance of making money they would not have paid for the development.

Originally posted by ray12k

lol most people realized this 10 years ago hehe

that this was the thread killer????

Can't comment on UO.  But who stole Brad's games?

EQ was always owned by SOE.  VG he sold to SOE.  Nothing stolen there.

Venge

Everquest was launched and created by Brad's company "Verant Interactive"

Originally posted by Saxx0n

Can't comment on UO.  But who stole Brad's games?

EQ was always owned by SOE.  VG he sold to SOE.  Nothing stolen there.

Venge

Everquest was launched and created by Brad's company "Verant Interactive"

And Verant was always owned by Sony.

Verant interactive was a brand of Sony.

My biggest regret is that once WoW hit, innovation seemed to stop. There was a time where games were different games. UO was different to EQ just as EQ was different to AC and AC wasn't the same as Shadowbane, even SWG originally had it's own feel.

Early on it was exciting to imagine, my god, the possibilities! All of the places these games could go, it could only get better and better....then, we get saddled with 5 or so years of WoW clones. The me in 1999 didn't see that coming.

Some people defend this by saying absurdities like 'If it's not broken, don't fix it', well, if it's not broken, why shove out more and more pale immitations that ARE broken in comparison to what you're trying to mimic?