Originally posted by SaintViktor

Still can't get past level 40 in this game without getting bored and tired of "go fetch this and go kill that" type of quests. So I decided to just delete WoW off my pc and never fall for the "all mmos are crap so I guess I'll play WoW instead just because " trap.

 

I really want to delete it, it's just sitting there taking up 30+ gigs, but every other MMO has disappointed me in terms of fluidity of action, not to mention purpose.  I'll probably only delete WoW when GW2 is released.  But having it on my computer makes me feel like I've got gum stuck to my shoe..

I personally hate all aspect of raiding.

The wait time, the annoucement, the wait time, the gathering, the wait time, the preparation, the wait time, the organization, the wait time, the assingment of duties, the wait time, OOM, the wait time, the roll on gear, the wait time, the wipe, the wait time, the blame drama, the wait time....you get the picture. A lot of wasted time waiting.

Also the fact that it took 25-man to do the raid an only 3-5 people gets something shiny. Most of the time, 4-6 hrs of raid and have nothing to show for it because 3 items dropped for a Rogue who's not even in the raid group.

Yeah, raiding should be for hardcore and making it casual with "finders" only angers casual players.

Blizzard don't get it. Casual players don't go in raid to see how the raid works or get exprerience...they raid only if it is worth their time, meaning, after hours of spending in a raid that they are rewarded more than a repair bill.

/rant-end

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Seriously, has the OP ever raided in Wow?  Pickup groups just do not work period.  If you want to raid you join a raid guild.  Trying to hint that these raids would be available to the masses is humorous.  Available yes, doable no.

 

You're wrong.  They've made the raids PuGgable and EASIER to make up for the fact that people will be PuGing them.  If you find a raid through the raid finder, therefore, it will be easy enough that a PuG can do it.  So yes.....these raids will now be available to everyone, essentially.  I'm fine with that, but I know a lot of my ex-guilie elitist raiders.....are NOT.  Personally, I'm so sick of the raid grind that I don't care if I never raid again as long as I live.  Six years was plenty enough.  I think it's great that everyone who PAYS THE SAME 15 bucks a month is now going to have the opportunity to see those raid parts of the story.

I agree with your whole post but the green part is something I have been saying for years. Everyone pays the same why not let them see the content? It is something that should have happened years ago.

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Seriously, has the OP ever raided in Wow?  Pickup groups just do not work period.  If you want to raid you join a raid guild.  Trying to hint that these raids would be available to the masses is humorous.  Available yes, doable no.

You're wrong.  They've made the raids PuGgable and EASIER to make up for the fact that people will be PuGing them.  If you find a raid through the raid finder, therefore, it will be easy enough that a PuG can do it.  So yes.....these raids will now be available to everyone, essentially.  I'm fine with that, but I know a lot of my ex-guilie elitist raiders.....are NOT.  Personally, I'm so sick of the raid grind that I don't care if I never raid again as long as I live.  Six years was plenty enough.  I think it's great that everyone who PAYS THE SAME 15 bucks a month is now going to have the opportunity to see those raid parts of the story.

Wow I was so close to arguing with you then I re-read and we agree completely.

Silly internets!

Originally posted by BadSpock

The absolute 100% truth is that the hardcore and former hardcore are just upset other people are doing "their" stuff now too.

I used to be one of those elites who thought I was better then your "average" player because I raided in Vanilla and BC.

That mentality kept up into Wrath as my guild and I "easily" bested hard-mode content like Sarth 3D.

Only achievements/hard mode content I wasn't able to complete in that first tier of Wrath raiding were Immortal (someone would always die during KT) and Malygos under 6 min or whatever.

10-man 3D? Done, 10-man everything? Done. Two 25-man achieves missing... I actually "cared" enough to check the rankings etc. on the server to know I was in top 3 Warrior tanks on the server, top 25 geared players over-all.

Ulduar hit and my 10-person group I led (Main Tank=me) rocked it hard, but our full guild 25 group just kept having issues with certain bosses and got "stuck" in progression.

This fact coupled with how much better my 10-person group was doing then the other 10 group and the combined full guild 25 group, there started to be a LOT of drama... eventually, guild broke up.

I still say Ulduar was the last "great" raid, though Icecrown was very fun and cool it was just too easy on normal.

Trial of the Crusader was a joke, I came back after months off, months after TOC was released and easily pugged it. Farming pre-current Tier raid gear was jokingly easy from heroics, etc.

Now?

I am actually quite pleased they are introducing the Raid Finder. The game should have ALWAYS had 3 difficulty modes instead of two. Having content for the 1% at the top (hard modes) and then content for the other 99% just doesn't work.

Easy mode (PUG mode) for peopel who just want to see it/experience it and don't really care abotu being cutting edge (what I've turned into)

Normal mode for guilds/groups and maybe really good PUGs to progress and still have that challenge/progression/reward system etc.

Hard Mode for the elite.

Would make it much, much easier to tune the content to the oppropriate level, give the hardcore their elite content and gear etc.

Fully 100% support this, recently re-subbed and am working on getting myself pre-geared enough to PUG Deathwing easy-mode when it releases.

Just to see the content, then I'll be done with WoW again until next expansion (maybe, depends on what it is)

You are absolutely 100% wrong.  Most raiders enjoy the fact that raiding is more accessable for everyone.  Hardcore players dont mind it either.  The only problem raiders and hardcore players ahve a problem is when things are "dumbed down" so that anyone can complete the content.

As a cuyrrent raider and , retired hardcore player, I love the ideas of thing like dungeon finder because it gets more peple involved.  I do however hate it when things are either dumbed down or the time sinks are decreased for the more casual players.  MMO's are meant to take a long time to complete.  Games current content and then expansion content usually have enough in them to last the "average player" until the next patch.  The problem is the hardcore people finish content thats suppose to take a year to finish in only 2 months.

The problem comes on how companies deal with this issue.  WoW handles it in a extremely wrong fashion.  1st they make new high end content almost impossbile to beat and plus add pointless times sinks to complete before you can even try.  Then when the average gamers catches up., all the sudden the time sinks are deleted and the encouters are gimped.

This no only punishes hard core people for playing the game a lot and efficiently, but also just encourages average players to hang back and wait for the nerf to high end content.

But anyways back to your "100% absolute correct" statement....Its false.  I'm a raider, I was hardcore, and I have not only  no problem with making high end content accessable, but encourage it.

I enjoy hard mode. I might not always play it on every game but I enjoy the challenge. I think that it is one of those that if it is to see the content then have no problem that all of it is available to be experienced in some way. I have to say that I am one that I would just enjoy seeing three versions of raids when going into them with it being "casual", "hardcore", and "elitist". Give them different rewards is fine as well if necessary. 

It was foreseeable that Activision would make some more moves to bring endgame-content to everyone. They've lost alot of subs and some serious heavy weights are about to enter the ring. Nowadays even they can't afford to put money into developing content which 5% of the playerbase takes not of.

I have no problem with 12year old brats (either muted or screaming on vent) or 30min-time-a-day housewifes (which are 60% of their 30mins distracted by either chatting or doing something else aside gaming) raiding light versions of content -because i won't see both in my raids anyway.

Once again, we have a case of someone completely missing the point.

The issue with us "elitists" or "old schoolers" is not the assumption that any one who played post whatever expansion in WOW is a "Casual", but the resultant brainwashing by blizzard that this style of play is the only worthwhile style of play, and any "old" style of play is just outdated and stupid.

The problem is these people lap it up like its the nectar of the gods.  They then spend countless hours on the forums mocking and arguing with old schoolers who are trying to tell them that there are OTHER WAYS TO PLAY MMOS.

The secondary issue at hand is one of what i feel is a growing sense of entitlment which extends outside of MMO's (i.e. i believe it is a societal issue manifesting itself in MMO's).  These people are the true problem.  They're the ones that don't understand that nothing worth having in life is gained easily.  So then a cycle happens.  These people complain that they pay $15/mo just like everyone else and shouldnt be penalized because they can only play 1 hour a day, 3 days a week or something along those lines.  So, developers fold because they think that this is the core of the playerbase, and they make content extremely easy and quickly done.  Now, said gamers hoot in pleasure, obtain their "phat lewtz" and less than a week later they're posting on the forums that the game is boring and "doesn't have enough content" and blah blah blah blah.

Even Blizzard identified the problem and realized they screwed the pooch by catering to the ultra casuals and tried to remedy the issue with cataclysm. All of a sudden running a dungeon required thought.  It wasnt a guaranteed win.  You couldnt just queue up half asleep and faceroll the content and collect your rewards.  Bosses required thought, reactionary ability, spacial reasoning.  Groups pulls occasionally required CC, etc.

What ended up happening?  Blizzard had a massive divide and backlash in the community from people who supported it, and people who were used to their welfare epics who were pissed that they had to actually work for something.

And on a complete side note, i'm sorry, but vanilla wow the "epitome" of raiding difficulty?  As an old EQ vet i just find that entire statement laughable.  Perhaps within the realm of WOW i would agree with that statement.  But even vanilla WOW raids were nothing to write home about.  Truly the most difficult part was not the fights, but getting 40 people together to pull their collective heads out of their asses and do what they're supposed to.  Unfortunately with the quality of the average player in WOW, this was a lot more difficult than in a game like EQ, which by nature of its difficult leveling process, and difficult content, weeded out mediocre players by max level.  Sucky players simply couldnt make it to the end of the level curve, and as a result you could have a reasonable expectation that a max level character wasnt an imbecile and could perform at a basic level.

I played WoW for almost 4 years, with a game time of an average of 6-7 hours per day. Up untill WoTLK got out, where that average went down drastically....then Cataclysm came out and it was it for me.

I have played many big name MMOs, and some where the name was not "there", and i still think WoW is hands down the best game experience i ever had and one of the, if not "the", most polished MMO out there. So whats the problem for me...

...the problem is that there is no real upside by paying for a game that doesnt reward veteran players for their "loyalty" if you can call it that way. I have seen some games where players would be rewarded by time spent playing it, others for what they do while playing and even played a game where actually building your avatar was a combined effort of the mentioned previously.

To make it clear, every expansion in WoW its a sudden reset to all of your past efforts playing the game, with zero or almost none recognition for what you have achieved but some crappy achievements tittles. I really dont care if  some guild was already doing end game raid, because WoW is not only about raids. It has a massive lore and world to explore (it had, now you only click a button to join Queues....talk about messing things badly eh?) and it has good to great PvP. I was even lucky to be in a guild where raid progress was made fairly quickly, not the best guild in EU region, but was the best of the server i was in.

So reply to this if you can: whats the difference between an avatar of a player playing WoW since Vanilla, and the avatar of a player playing it since Cataclysm, when the next expansion comes out? Wheres the reward? Wheres the real organic feel to the MMO world? It has none.

Even games like WAR offered something to the veteran player. It doesnt have to be something of big impact in the game...but something has to be there....

...and thats why i now play EVE online.

My 2 cents on it ofc. Thank you.

The problem isn't between casual and hardcore, but that there are too many people playing WoW who are not actual "gamers". 

it seems like very few of MMORPG.com's "specific game" writers (the eve writer being an exception) actually have really dove into the depths of their respective game.

in other words, though i think the above article was very well written, doesnt it make sense for the website's wow writer to be at the very least a FORMER raider?

Originally posted by itchmon

it seems like very few of MMORPG.com's "specific game" writers (the eve writer being an exception) actually have really dove into the depths of their respective game.

 

in other words, though i think the above article was very well written, doesnt it make sense for the website's wow writer to be at the very least a FORMER raider?

I've noticed that, too. If i remember it right, there were even articles in which the author stated that he/she doesn't have time to play games. I agree that this article here was a good one, but overall the quality of articles and reviews have decreased over time.

It would be a start if the authors would have some first hand experience in what they write about or are at least somewhat connected to gaming at all.

Originally posted by Supersoups

How many ways can you kill a dead horse?

At least one more than before this article was posted.

I can't stand WoW guilds and their bitching and whining. This is probably why I never got any decent raid loot. Its nice that there are options besides sucking a mile of dick to get the epic gear you need.

So agree with you.

So.... the article can best be summed up by watching the movie Idiocracy? 

Have MMORPG's "Jumped the Shark"?

Before, it took 'a certain type of person' to even play MMORPG's.  As computers, internet, and games have become more and more accessible to players of all walks of life... there has been a quality shift.

Gaming companies want 'everyone' to play, because of the $$$$$$$$$$$. 

Gamers don't want everyone to play, because it really does water down the quality of player.

WoW is the prime example. 

Most people say the game has gotten worse with each expansion. 

And with each expansion, the game has been redesigned to attract more and more players... it has succeeded in that regard. 

It's been the most recent expansion that finally 'crossed the line' or 'jumped the shark.

Thus, the decline in WoW population/sub's.

Ever think that some of these games fail because of the types of players that are attracted to them?  A game could be amazing... but if you jump in and find that it has a terrible community and/or that the quality of player is well below 'par'... that's terminal. 

I'm perfectly fine with playing an MMO that has hardmode raiding only a few top guilds will ever access.  I'm fine with them getting titles for it, and nifty looking gear, and board rankings. 

In fact, the only thing I object to is giving them gear with better stats than every other player in the game can get, because when they pvp in it or pve in groups doing other content, it puts everyone else at an completely unnecessary disadvantage. 

These guys are already the best in the game, right?  They don't need better gear than everyone else has access to, and it's not a required carrot to entice them to raid, either.  Not for people who love doing the nigh-impossible and getting recognition for that with titles and unique looking gear. 

edit because I'm fumble fingered with the double posting today

J:  How did raiding change from vanilla to Lich King?

R:  For one it used to be forty man raids which, obviously, required forty competent, coordinated people.  It was so much harder than nowadays.  Strategy, gear, resists, and teamwork had to be at peak levels at all times to complete even the easiest raid.  There were no Joe Schmoes raiding and winning.  You had to show up every night and wipe over and over perfecting your guild’s strats, which weren’t instantly shared on the internet to help everyone through.  It was the epitome of hardcore gaming, even outside of actual raids doing all the prep work.

I can't disagree with the blue text strongly enough.  Many Blizzard devs have said that players have simply become much better at the game over the years, and although many players have written those statements off as excuses for how easy WoW had gotten at certain points, it's still the truth.  My memories of 40 man raids are certainly not of competence and coordination, and I was part of a group who killed C'thun prior to Naxx's release.  In any given 40 man raid, we had at least 5 chronic AFKers and 8 terrible players (with some overlap between the 2.)  The rest simply had to compensate.  And guess what?  We and many other guild were able to.  That was how forgiving the content was.  

Add in the fact that we were all much worse players than we are today.  Case in point: the healing leader and officer of our guild went on a several year haitus shortly after the release of BC.  At the time, I looked up to him as a player.  When he returned in WotlK while Ulduar was current content, I got to play with him again.  After more than a few weeks to shake off the rust, he was still failing miserably at healing in our 10 man hard modes.  In attempt to figure out what the problem was, I learned he was a "clicker."  He had never used a skill by pressing his keyboard in his life.  Not even 1-3.  That simply wouldn't fly in WotlK, which is largely considered the "easiest" expansion.  His healing output (since meters had become prevalent, which wasn't necessarily a good thing) was less than 33% of that of any other healer's.  He had a lot of practice to do before he could properly heal normal mode Yogg, let alone hard mode encounters like Firefighter.

I agree that there's something to be said about simply constructing and organizing a 40 man raid, but that was one of the hardest parts.  The smaller the raids get, the higher the responsibility for each individual.  There's less room to carry the dead weight, and even less still in 10 mans, assuming of course the difficulty is toggled to be relatively the same, which wasn't always the case.  Some of my most intense and difficult WoW raiding experiences definitely came from 10 man content: Karazhan within the first few months, 2 healing ZA bear mount runs within the first few months, Ulduar hard modes and Algalon.  

The only thing that i will always be bitter towards and never forigve the modern playerbase of WoW is the fact that they killed off the world. Warcraft doesn't have a world anymore its just a dungeon crawler with all this instan queues and crap. Raid finder is just beating the dead horse even more, with that in place one will NEVER have to leave a city ever again after reaching max level.

I could put aside the whole casual/hardcore arguement aside but the fact is that this instant gratification crap is killing the idea of a persistant world... at least it has with WoW. If blizz doesn't have any plans to fix this anytime soon then I'm just going to delete my characters and never look back anymore... it is just infuriating!